Carlton - a historical perspective
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- samuraisaint
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Carlton - a historical perspective
For the millenials at the match last night in the crowd of almost 34,000, in which there was a ratio of 10/1 in the red, white and black, you could be forgiven for watching the grey army losing their decorum at what would appear to be a regulation 11 goal win against the wooden spooner.
But for those of us born before the birth of Oasis and Nirvana, this year's worthy wooden spooner Carlton represent a much darker era, and I'm not taking the Twilight series, yo!
I am not about to pass comments; I am going to let the facts do the speaking and they're not pretty reading:
In the first 120 games between St Kilda and Carlton, Carlton won 100, 2 were draws.
Before we won our first premiership in 1966 we managed only 23 wins against the boys from north of the Yarra.
In the fifteen seasons between the post-Allan Jeans and pre-Kenny Sheldon eras our wins against the Blues were locked on 26 or 27 wins against them. Our winning ratio against them at this time was 15% - possibly the all-time show stopping worst in the history of professional sport.
Until 1989 our highest ever score against the latte-sippers from Lygon Street was an embarrassing 114 points kicked in the 1970s, a score equalled or bettered by the Blues a remarkable 37 times! Our top ten highest scores against Carlton at the time were all losing scores
Until Kenny Sheldon coached us our greatest ever winning margin against the powerbroking club was a very modest 53 points, from our premiership year, 1966.
We only beat them 7 times at Moorabbin.
Before 1993 we had only beaten them 6 times at Princes Park, in a run going back to 1897
Between 1976 and 1983 we lost five games in a row against them at Princes Park by 100 points or more. A record.
Before 1999 we had NEVER beaten them at the MCG...
Our longest run of consecutive wins against Elliot's mob was an atrocious 3 (for perspective's sake, we are currently on a 4 in a row winning streak against the Lygon Street fashionistas).
Since the VFL competition was renamed the AFL in 1990, we have:
Bettered our highest ever score 14 times, including kicking a very decent 31 goals (196), and three scores of more than 150 points (for the sake of persepctive, against the 'Dogs, whom we have a proud record against, we have only kicked more than 150 points twice).
Bettered our greatest ever winning margin 8 times, including a highly satisfying 108 point victory, three victories by more than 15 goals, and as of last night, six by more than 10 goals. This is most satisfactory!
We've won 21 games against them in 16 years, a feat it took St Kilda FC 67 years to achieve in the 20th century.
We have won our previous 5 games unbroken against the glamour side at the MCG, the last win was by 12 goals.
Not pretty reading, but the KPIs are looking up for the Moorabbin Massive as the millenials might say.
But for those of us born before the birth of Oasis and Nirvana, this year's worthy wooden spooner Carlton represent a much darker era, and I'm not taking the Twilight series, yo!
I am not about to pass comments; I am going to let the facts do the speaking and they're not pretty reading:
In the first 120 games between St Kilda and Carlton, Carlton won 100, 2 were draws.
Before we won our first premiership in 1966 we managed only 23 wins against the boys from north of the Yarra.
In the fifteen seasons between the post-Allan Jeans and pre-Kenny Sheldon eras our wins against the Blues were locked on 26 or 27 wins against them. Our winning ratio against them at this time was 15% - possibly the all-time show stopping worst in the history of professional sport.
Until 1989 our highest ever score against the latte-sippers from Lygon Street was an embarrassing 114 points kicked in the 1970s, a score equalled or bettered by the Blues a remarkable 37 times! Our top ten highest scores against Carlton at the time were all losing scores
Until Kenny Sheldon coached us our greatest ever winning margin against the powerbroking club was a very modest 53 points, from our premiership year, 1966.
We only beat them 7 times at Moorabbin.
Before 1993 we had only beaten them 6 times at Princes Park, in a run going back to 1897
Between 1976 and 1983 we lost five games in a row against them at Princes Park by 100 points or more. A record.
Before 1999 we had NEVER beaten them at the MCG...
Our longest run of consecutive wins against Elliot's mob was an atrocious 3 (for perspective's sake, we are currently on a 4 in a row winning streak against the Lygon Street fashionistas).
Since the VFL competition was renamed the AFL in 1990, we have:
Bettered our highest ever score 14 times, including kicking a very decent 31 goals (196), and three scores of more than 150 points (for the sake of persepctive, against the 'Dogs, whom we have a proud record against, we have only kicked more than 150 points twice).
Bettered our greatest ever winning margin 8 times, including a highly satisfying 108 point victory, three victories by more than 15 goals, and as of last night, six by more than 10 goals. This is most satisfactory!
We've won 21 games against them in 16 years, a feat it took St Kilda FC 67 years to achieve in the 20th century.
We have won our previous 5 games unbroken against the glamour side at the MCG, the last win was by 12 goals.
Not pretty reading, but the KPIs are looking up for the Moorabbin Massive as the millenials might say.
Last edited by samuraisaint on Sat 14 Jul 2018 7:33pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
I remember Pig's Arse referring to the Saints as Carlton's reserve team., or Seconds.
Now one could say that Carlton are GWS's Seconds.
How times have changed. For the better I might add.
Now one could say that Carlton are GWS's Seconds.
How times have changed. For the better I might add.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
Those sad stats simply confirm what us old timers well and truly know.
Visits to Princes Park in the 70s and 80s were frequently 100+ thrashings.
That 1993 win at PP was i think our first win at PP since the early 60s. What a great day it was and a group of 4 of us wound up in the Carlton Social Club as we had a Carlton friend who signed us in. We got lots of hostile looks which just made the experience even better! I am not inclined to perform criminal acts but I did fantasise to vandalise their evil trophies.
It was only a decade or so later I had the privilege of taking and displaying wooden spoons to that hated venue.
Younger fans also would not know that in the early 80s StK almost went bankrupt. Lindsay Fox, our president managed to negotiate deals with our creditors and players whereby many of them only receivex 6 cents for every dollar we owed them.
(Incidentally that is one of the great historical wrongs that we should fix - pay back those players like Barry Breen who were short changed).
But one of our creditors was the Carlton FC who we owed a few thousand. Led by Ian Collins who I think was their CEO at the time, he actually moved a motion to have StK declared bankrupt.
It was unsuccessful obviously, but we should never forget what that SCUMBAG club tried to do to us.
Of course it was Ian Collins who later as CEO of Docklands helped screw us over with AFL complicity in our Docklands stadium deal.
What a shame this despicable person didn't fall of that ladder three decades earlier and land much much much more heavily.
And I haven't even mentioned their old business model implemented by a cavalcade of dishonest criminal presidents of cheating, poaching, salary cap rorts, payments in paper bags, even Mr and Mrs Chicken Wing on the payroll at Visy for non existent jobs.
Anyway the OP is right.
CAAAAARLTON must always be our most despised club regardless of how inept and pathetic they might look now.
They must always be hated and NO amount of revenge against them will EVER be enough!!
Visits to Princes Park in the 70s and 80s were frequently 100+ thrashings.
That 1993 win at PP was i think our first win at PP since the early 60s. What a great day it was and a group of 4 of us wound up in the Carlton Social Club as we had a Carlton friend who signed us in. We got lots of hostile looks which just made the experience even better! I am not inclined to perform criminal acts but I did fantasise to vandalise their evil trophies.
It was only a decade or so later I had the privilege of taking and displaying wooden spoons to that hated venue.
Younger fans also would not know that in the early 80s StK almost went bankrupt. Lindsay Fox, our president managed to negotiate deals with our creditors and players whereby many of them only receivex 6 cents for every dollar we owed them.
(Incidentally that is one of the great historical wrongs that we should fix - pay back those players like Barry Breen who were short changed).
But one of our creditors was the Carlton FC who we owed a few thousand. Led by Ian Collins who I think was their CEO at the time, he actually moved a motion to have StK declared bankrupt.
It was unsuccessful obviously, but we should never forget what that SCUMBAG club tried to do to us.
Of course it was Ian Collins who later as CEO of Docklands helped screw us over with AFL complicity in our Docklands stadium deal.
What a shame this despicable person didn't fall of that ladder three decades earlier and land much much much more heavily.
And I haven't even mentioned their old business model implemented by a cavalcade of dishonest criminal presidents of cheating, poaching, salary cap rorts, payments in paper bags, even Mr and Mrs Chicken Wing on the payroll at Visy for non existent jobs.
Anyway the OP is right.
CAAAAARLTON must always be our most despised club regardless of how inept and pathetic they might look now.
They must always be hated and NO amount of revenge against them will EVER be enough!!
The rest of Australia can wander mask-free, socialise, eat out, no curfews, no zoning, no police rings of steel, no illogical inconsistent rules.
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
Great post E M. Thanks for reminding me.
I once wrote to the AFL CEO about them trying to stitch Plugger up for trying to take the head off of that pathetic Swans supporter.
Him and his mates had been taunting Plugger about the pig on the ground with the no 4 last time the Saints played in Sin City.
I got an offensive letter back from Collins.
I wrote back saying I directed my comments to the organ grinder and I didn't want to hear from the monkey.
Naturally, I didn't get a reply this time.
Plugger later on requested me to give him copies of the correspondence. I didn't, but still have the letters.
I once wrote to the AFL CEO about them trying to stitch Plugger up for trying to take the head off of that pathetic Swans supporter.
Him and his mates had been taunting Plugger about the pig on the ground with the no 4 last time the Saints played in Sin City.
I got an offensive letter back from Collins.
I wrote back saying I directed my comments to the organ grinder and I didn't want to hear from the monkey.
Naturally, I didn't get a reply this time.
Plugger later on requested me to give him copies of the correspondence. I didn't, but still have the letters.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
Yep all those days at Princes Park I recalled last night and just cheered louder for the mighty Saints.
They deserved that insipid uniform it matches where they are now. And I love it.
They deserved that insipid uniform it matches where they are now. And I love it.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
Thanks for those interesting stats. My late Dad followed the Blues but I chose the Saints. I used to go to Blues games with Dad in '60s and I'd alsways look forward to the Saints clash ... and we always lost! Although I do recall a wet day at Moorabbin when McMaster-Smith (from memory) kicked a late goal and we won. But this once might club that dominated from late '60s to the '80s is now a long time from glory. By the way Samurai Saint ... if you have chosen your nickname to honour my favourite show as a kid 'The Samurai' then I salute you. In 1966 the Saints reigned in football - and Shintaro reigned on TV.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
.. with his trusty sidekick, Tombei the Mist !Newman wrote: ↑Sat 14 Jul 2018 3:18pm Thanks for those interesting stats. My late Dad followed the Blues but I chose the Saints. I used to go to Blues games with Dad in '60s and I'd alsways look forward to the Saints clash ... and we always lost! Although I do recall a wet day at Moorabbin when McMaster-Smith (from memory) kicked a late goal and we won. But this once might club that dominated from late '60s to the '80s is now a long time from glory. By the way Samurai Saint ... if you have chosen your nickname to honour my favourite show as a kid 'The Samurai' then I salute you. In 1966 the Saints reigned in football - and Shintaro reigned on TV.
I LOVE this thread. For oldies like me, Carlton is THE hated enemy. Arrogance personified. Some of my favourite wins are against them. One day at Waverley when George Young kicked 7 in the rain; Lockett kicking 10.7 on SOS at Moorabbin including the winner in 89; his 13 at Waverley; the breakthrough win at PP in 93; the day Fev played full back on GTrain ( and was hilariously poor ) .
So yes we played a crap team last night, and yes we have a long way to go. But stuff it, we smashed Carlton.. a beautiful thing !
Last edited by George27 on Sat 14 Jul 2018 3:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
I remember for a long time, our highest score against them was 114 which we scored in 1977. It was a losing score. Rex Hunt kicked 5.
Our highest score before this was 110 points in 1935. Bill Mohr kicked 8. We lost.
Before that, 1934 we scored 108. Mohr kicked 4. We lost.
In 1923 we scored 100 in a win.
We topped the 1977 score with a score of 132 in 1989. It was also a losing score. Winmar kicked 8.
Finally in 1991 we had a highest score against them that was a winning score. Plugged kicked 13 and Dean Grieg had 39 possessions in his first game.
Our highest score against them from 1934 to 1991 was a losing score. That’s 57 years where our highest score was a loss.
And some “supporters” wanted us to lose last night!
Last night’s win was our 6th biggest win against the Blues.
Our highest score before this was 110 points in 1935. Bill Mohr kicked 8. We lost.
Before that, 1934 we scored 108. Mohr kicked 4. We lost.
In 1923 we scored 100 in a win.
We topped the 1977 score with a score of 132 in 1989. It was also a losing score. Winmar kicked 8.
Finally in 1991 we had a highest score against them that was a winning score. Plugged kicked 13 and Dean Grieg had 39 possessions in his first game.
Our highest score against them from 1934 to 1991 was a losing score. That’s 57 years where our highest score was a loss.
And some “supporters” wanted us to lose last night!
Last night’s win was our 6th biggest win against the Blues.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
My footy tipping rules: always pick StKilda, never pick Carlton! I guess , the past decade excepted, this explains my failure to ever win anything! And , Ok I admit - as one of the old timers. The only time I ever remember barracking for Carlton was in that famous GF when they came back from 40 pts down. I was there so had to support someone and it was too much of a compromise to back the pies!
I kept it quiet from the family though.
I kept it quiet from the family though.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
Always recall fondly but bitter sweetly too the final round of 1978 where we had to upset the Scum to make the finals. Well we certainly did, led by the irrepressible Barks but sadly Geelong failed to win to finish the equation and we missed out. The next day on the Sunday I ride down to the local milk bar to get the Sunday Observer and Press proudly wearing my Sts jersey ( I was 16). The shop owner was mad Carlton and he gave me a wry smile but you could tell he was filthy!! Always remembered that
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
Yes - another great Saints win over this mob. If we had got in the finals that year, we could have done a lot of damage. Mind you, it would have been without Robbie Muir, who I recall caused Dennis Collins to faint and then had a debate with Umpire Kevin Smith where he appeared to suggest ( with subtlety) that Smith was not umpiring well.stevie wrote: ↑Sat 14 Jul 2018 4:08pm Always recall fondly but bitter sweetly too the final round of 1978 where we had to upset the Scum to make the finals. Well we certainly did, led by the irrepressible Barks but sadly Geelong failed to win to finish the equation and we missed out. The next day on the Sunday I ride down to the local milk bar to get the Sunday Observer and Press proudly wearing my Sts jersey ( I was 16). The shop owner was mad Carlton and he gave me a wry smile but you could tell he was filthy!! Always remembered that
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
Their navy blue seems to have faded like the team.oh when the wrote: ↑Sat 14 Jul 2018 3:07pm Yep all those days at Princes Park I recalled last night and just cheered louder for the mighty Saints.
They deserved that insipid uniform it matches where they are now. And I love it.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
I was sure Mighty Muir was going to king hit umpire Smith that day!George27 wrote: ↑Sat 14 Jul 2018 4:32pmYes - another great Saints win over this mob. If we had got in the finals that year, we could have done a lot of damage. Mind you, it would have been without Robbie Muir, who I recall caused Dennis Collins to faint and then had a debate with Umpire Kevin Smith where he appeared to suggest ( with subtlety) that Smith was not umpiring well.stevie wrote: ↑Sat 14 Jul 2018 4:08pm Always recall fondly but bitter sweetly too the final round of 1978 where we had to upset the Scum to make the finals. Well we certainly did, led by the irrepressible Barks but sadly Geelong failed to win to finish the equation and we missed out. The next day on the Sunday I ride down to the local milk bar to get the Sunday Observer and Press proudly wearing my Sts jersey ( I was 16). The shop owner was mad Carlton and he gave me a wry smile but you could tell he was filthy!! Always remembered that
And I think a very scared Smith thought the same and at one point swayed his head back and backpeddled quickly.
If Muir played in this era without the racist taunts he would be a superstar.
He had everything except the right temperament.
The rest of Australia can wander mask-free, socialise, eat out, no curfews, no zoning, no police rings of steel, no illogical inconsistent rules.
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
I fell out of the Social Club after the 78 win at Moorabbin
Remember the crowd in the car park queuing at the gates.
Remember the crowd in the car park queuing at the gates.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
And in a timely twist of fate, that match will forever be immortalised in an episode of the TV series "Cop Shop"!Enrico_Misso wrote: ↑Sat 14 Jul 2018 4:45pmI was sure Mighty Muir was going to king hit umpire Smith that day!George27 wrote: ↑Sat 14 Jul 2018 4:32pmYes - another great Saints win over this mob. If we had got in the finals that year, we could have done a lot of damage. Mind you, it would have been without Robbie Muir, who I recall caused Dennis Collins to faint and then had a debate with Umpire Kevin Smith where he appeared to suggest ( with subtlety) that Smith was not umpiring well.stevie wrote: ↑Sat 14 Jul 2018 4:08pm Always recall fondly but bitter sweetly too the final round of 1978 where we had to upset the Scum to make the finals. Well we certainly did, led by the irrepressible Barks but sadly Geelong failed to win to finish the equation and we missed out. The next day on the Sunday I ride down to the local milk bar to get the Sunday Observer and Press proudly wearing my Sts jersey ( I was 16). The shop owner was mad Carlton and he gave me a wry smile but you could tell he was filthy!! Always remembered that
And I think a very scared Smith thought the same and at one point swayed his head back and backpeddled quickly.
If Muir played in this era without the racist taunts he would be a superstar.
He had everything except the right temperament.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
At this rate we’ll draw level with them sometime this century. If the trend continues. We must never lose to them again.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
It will be even be sweeter if they draw level with our ‘Wooden Spoon’ tally.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
There is a certain hatred for Carlton that truly must be continued on through the generations.
I remember one of the big wins we had at the corporate dome when GT was coach. Carlton were ruined by finally being held to account for their systematic cheating. We won by 100+ or so and in the presser after that game someone asked GT if he ever thought about taking the foot off.
His response was something along the lines of "look at the history between these clubs... I think we owe them a couple".
f*** Carlton. Seriously, f*** em'.
If they win another flag before we do I will stop following football.
I remember one of the big wins we had at the corporate dome when GT was coach. Carlton were ruined by finally being held to account for their systematic cheating. We won by 100+ or so and in the presser after that game someone asked GT if he ever thought about taking the foot off.
His response was something along the lines of "look at the history between these clubs... I think we owe them a couple".
f*** Carlton. Seriously, f*** em'.
If they win another flag before we do I will stop following football.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
i grew up in the back blocks of southern tassy
learning to despise anything in black n white
glenorchy & collingwood basically
but
i do resonate with the moral contempt for the brown baggers ... it is all a bit personal ay
**** them
and i also agree that the 'backpay issue'
for former players or their survivors is a matter of honour for the club to deal with
maybe send all the coin made from the pokies
to that cause instead of consolidated revenues
learning to despise anything in black n white
glenorchy & collingwood basically
but
i do resonate with the moral contempt for the brown baggers ... it is all a bit personal ay
**** them
and i also agree that the 'backpay issue'
for former players or their survivors is a matter of honour for the club to deal with
maybe send all the coin made from the pokies
to that cause instead of consolidated revenues
.name the ways , thought manipulates the State of Presence away.
.tipara waranta kani nina-tu.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
I remember the disgusting treatment Carlton dished out to Robbie Muir. The more misery piled upon Carlton and their supporters the better.
Rugby League would have to be the stupidest, most moronic and over rated game of all time.
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Re: Carlton - a historical perspective
I can’t believe it. Lockett got a free kick at about 10:40.
Those were as rare as hen’s teeth.
Great find.
Also, Winmar to Lockett at about 21:30 is sublime. Anyone Saint who didn’t see them play needs to see it to understand what all the old timers are raving about.