Lever

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Sainter_Dad
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5856
Joined: Thu 05 Jun 2008 1:04pm
Has thanked: 213 times
Been thanked: 995 times

Lever

Post: # 1703544Post Sainter_Dad »

Is Lever that much better than Carlisle?

We have been lambasted for giving up pick 5 (and I know that we didn't but for the sake of arguments) for Jake Carlisle, but Melbourne are being lauded for giving up 2 x first rounders for Lever.

I don't get it. I am actually struggling to understand how anyone (aside from maybe 1 or 2 players) is worth 2 x First Rounders.


“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”

― Aristophanes

If you have a Bee in your Bonnet - I can assist you with that - but it WILL involve some smacking upside the head!
User avatar
Joffa Burns
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7081
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 5:48pm
Has thanked: 1871 times
Been thanked: 1570 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703546Post Joffa Burns »

Agreed Pops.
He is younger but two first rounders with a bit of change is a huge price.

Still, if you want quality you have to pay.


Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
SuperDuper
Club Player
Posts: 1298
Joined: Sun 25 Mar 2012 9:45pm
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703547Post SuperDuper »

Good point... Lever is younger so worth more than Carlisle but 5 to 14 downgrade (ended 6 to 18 after academy) is quite a lot less than what the demons paid


fugazi
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4243
Joined: Thu 25 Mar 2004 2:47pm
Location: incarnate
Has thanked: 286 times
Been thanked: 694 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703548Post fugazi »

I reckon we are laughing. We paid under for Carlisle/ Gresham and Dees paid overs.


Nee!
User avatar
Spinner
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8502
Joined: Sat 02 Dec 2006 3:40pm
Location: Victoria
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703549Post Spinner »

Sainter_Dad wrote:Is Lever that much better than Carlisle?

We have been lambasted for giving up pick 5 (and I know that we didn't but for the sake of arguments) for Jake Carlisle, but Melbourne are being lauded for giving up 2 x first rounders for Lever.

I don't get it. I am actually struggling to understand how anyone (aside from maybe 1 or 2 players) is worth 2 x First Rounders.

Think the dees got a great deal. Lever is 21, and already a proven key position player who would undoubtedly go in the top 3 picks if in this year's draft. Two first rounders, one being 10, the other probably between 12-18 is a bargain. Especially given the dees couldn't nail about 5 or so first rounders in a row at one stage a few years ago.

We got a good deal w Carlisle but the Dees have a beauty.


User avatar
SaintPav
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18162
Joined: Wed 16 Jun 2010 9:24pm
Location: Alma Road
Has thanked: 1457 times
Been thanked: 1829 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703551Post SaintPav »

Good player but Lever is no match winner.

They overpaid


Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
User avatar
Drake Huggins
Club Player
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed 04 Oct 2017 4:28pm
Location: The G.G. Huggins Stand
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703559Post Drake Huggins »

SaintPav wrote:Good player but Lever is no match winner.

They overpaid
Agreed. Way too much.


"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
User avatar
dragit
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13047
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2010 11:56am
Has thanked: 605 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703565Post dragit »

The guy is a superstar at 21… the dees will not regret this trade for a second.


User avatar
Drake Huggins
Club Player
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed 04 Oct 2017 4:28pm
Location: The G.G. Huggins Stand
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703566Post Drake Huggins »

I don't think they'll regret it too much, but let's see how good he is in an ordinary side, an average defence, playing against the best forward the opposition has, week in, week out. I don't think he's elite, not yet anyway. Two first rounders? Pfft!


"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
saynta
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 22436
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 3:53pm
Has thanked: 8355 times
Been thanked: 3703 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703567Post saynta »

Where did he come in their best and fairest?

Good player. Yes.

Superstar? Not yet.


felix
Club Player
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue 08 Nov 2011 3:29pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703569Post felix »

saynta wrote:Where did he come in their best and fairest?

Good player. Yes.

Superstar? Not yet.
Yes but maybe a superstar..worth the punt.


thejiggingsaint
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9354
Joined: Wed 03 Aug 2005 10:01pm
Has thanked: 625 times
Been thanked: 471 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703571Post thejiggingsaint »

felix wrote:
saynta wrote:Where did he come in their best and fairest?

Good player. Yes.

Superstar? Not yet.
Yes but maybe a superstar..worth the punt.
For TWO first rounders? That's a punt and a half!


St Kilda forever 🔴⚪️⚫️ ( God help me)
User avatar
Spinner
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8502
Joined: Sat 02 Dec 2006 3:40pm
Location: Victoria
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703573Post Spinner »

saynta wrote:Where did he come in their best and fairest?

Good player. Yes.

Superstar? Not yet.


He's 21....

In November they use a bunch of top 10 picks, even pick number 1 on players who havnt even played a game of AFL. Not superstars, not even good AFL players yet, not even GOP yet. So great logic there...


saynta
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 22436
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 3:53pm
Has thanked: 8355 times
Been thanked: 3703 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703576Post saynta »

Spinner wrote:
saynta wrote:Where did he come in their best and fairest?

Good player. Yes.

Superstar? Not yet.


He's 21....

In November they use a bunch of top 10 picks, even pick number 1 on players who havnt even played a game of AFL. Not superstars, not even good AFL players yet, not even GOP yet. So great logic there...
Nothing wrong with my logic.

I was repying to a poster who said he was already a superstar at 21.

So read the entire thread before making silly posts ffs.


User avatar
magnifisaint
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7641
Joined: Sun 02 May 2004 2:52am
Has thanked: 187 times
Been thanked: 528 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703591Post magnifisaint »

I reckon Lever is a gun but I'm not sure he'll be a match winner so on that 2 first rounders and a 4th rounder is overs by a fair margin.


Posting 20 years of holey crap!
1965 Saint
Club Player
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed 16 Sep 2009 2:31am
Location: Perth
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703592Post 1965 Saint »

Drake Huggins wrote:I don't think they'll regret it too much, but let's see how good he is in an ordinary side, an average defence, playing against the best forward the opposition has, week in, week out. I don't think he's elite, not yet anyway. Two first rounders? Pfft!
He may also be toxic. The problem may not lie with Adelaide FC, it may sit with Lever. Looks like a tool to me.


User avatar
bigred
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11463
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 7:39am
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 609 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703602Post bigred »

Massive.



Overs.


Could be a superstar but two first rounders is just way too much. They have a list that really you could consider to be developing into a contender. Looking for key bits of the puzzle.

Trading away your future first rounders like this is a huge risk.


"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
stkfc1
Club Player
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat 06 Oct 2007 2:42pm
Has thanked: 240 times
Been thanked: 382 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703603Post stkfc1 »

Two Melbourne supporters I know arent happy at all. Glad he came to the club but both reckon club have paid too much. He'd want to end up a superstar otherwise Melbourne have just shot themselves in the foot with their long term development. Big risk. Calculated risk. But big!


User avatar
ace
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10609
Joined: Sun 16 Dec 2007 3:28pm
Location: St Kilda
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 789 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703633Post ace »

Oils ain't oils and two first rounders aren't first rounders

The AFL points value is based over many years
Pick no 1 is valued at 3000 points
Pick no 18 is valued at 985 points

Three first rounders 16, 17 & 18 are valued at 3077 points.
So what maters is where those first rounders are placed.

In this trade
Melbourne gave up 2017 pick 10 but received pick 35 in return 1395 - 522 = 873 points in 2017
Melbourne gave up 2018 first rounder and fourth rounder but got back Adelaide's third rounder
We have no way of knowing where those picks will fall but lets use 2017 ladder positions
Melbourne gave up 2018 pick No 10 and pick No 65 but got back pick No 53 = 1395 + 90 - 233 = 1252 points in 2018
A total over 2 years of 2125 points worth pick 3 to 4 alone.

So Melbourne has effectively only given away one first round pick, but a high pick in the 3 to 4 range.

What makes the deal good for both sides is Melbourne's hubris.
Melbourne think those Melbourne 2018 picks are worth less and the Adelaide pick worth more.
Melbourne probably believe they have given up 350 points less so only given up pick 6
Adelaide think Melbourne are dreaming.


The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
When I was a young child, I knew that I knew so much about so much.
Now that I am old and know so much more, I know that I know so much about so little, and so little about so much.
SinCitySainter
Club Player
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri 16 Sep 2011 10:39am
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 91 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703634Post SinCitySainter »

The chance of getting two A graders for two picks in the 10 - 15 range is extremely slim. So chances are one is a C grader at best and maybe a complete bust. However, Lever is a known quantity. Certainly will be an A grader and potentially one of the best Key defenders in the game. He is better at 21 than Rance was.
So two Mid-range first rounders for Lever is a good and suitable deal.
This was a trade that was a win-win.


User avatar
ace
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10609
Joined: Sun 16 Dec 2007 3:28pm
Location: St Kilda
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 789 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703635Post ace »

stkfc1 wrote:Two Melbourne supporters I know arent happy at all. Glad he came to the club but both reckon club have paid too much. He'd want to end up a superstar otherwise Melbourne have just shot themselves in the foot with their long term development. Big risk. Calculated risk. But big!
Melbourne wasted 3000 points on Jack Watts but are wiling to sell him for 750 points a loss worth pick 3
We spent 3000 points on Paddy, he is yet to prove himself worth any points.
We can only hope he turns out better than Watts.


The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
When I was a young child, I knew that I knew so much about so much.
Now that I am old and know so much more, I know that I know so much about so little, and so little about so much.
saynta
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 22436
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 3:53pm
Has thanked: 8355 times
Been thanked: 3703 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703639Post saynta »

ace wrote:
stkfc1 wrote:Two Melbourne supporters I know arent happy at all. Glad he came to the club but both reckon club have paid too much. He'd want to end up a superstar otherwise Melbourne have just shot themselves in the foot with their long term development. Big risk. Calculated risk. But big!
Melbourne wasted 3000 points on Jack Watts but are wiling to sell him for 750 points a loss worth pick 3
We spent 3000 points on Paddy, he is yet to prove himself worth any points.
We can only hope he turns out better than Watts.
Paddy will be a gun starting next year.

And feel free to bookmark my post.

He looked awesome at the B & F. Lean and mean.

He has also grown since coming to the club.


User avatar
SaintPav
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18162
Joined: Wed 16 Jun 2010 9:24pm
Location: Alma Road
Has thanked: 1457 times
Been thanked: 1829 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703687Post SaintPav »

saynta wrote:
ace wrote:
stkfc1 wrote:Two Melbourne supporters I know arent happy at all. Glad he came to the club but both reckon club have paid too much. He'd want to end up a superstar otherwise Melbourne have just shot themselves in the foot with their long term development. Big risk. Calculated risk. But big!
Melbourne wasted 3000 points on Jack Watts but are wiling to sell him for 750 points a loss worth pick 3
We spent 3000 points on Paddy, he is yet to prove himself worth any points.
We can only hope he turns out better than Watts.
Paddy will be a gun starting next year.

And feel free to bookmark my post.

He looked awesome at the B & F. Lean and mean.

He has also grown since coming to the club.
I got a good feeling about this...


Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
User avatar
Drake Huggins
Club Player
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed 04 Oct 2017 4:28pm
Location: The G.G. Huggins Stand
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703698Post Drake Huggins »

Someone mentioned that at the B & F, Paddy was standing next to Baroose and looked taller. Baroose is listed as 197 cm. Paddy was drafted at 194 cm, IIRC. Has he grown that much or was he wearing high heels that night? If he's 197 and leaner and can run better as a result, there could be some happy times ahead.


"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
User avatar
skeptic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 16406
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
Has thanked: 3394 times
Been thanked: 2655 times

Re: Lever

Post: # 1703700Post skeptic »

saynta wrote:
ace wrote:
stkfc1 wrote:Two Melbourne supporters I know arent happy at all. Glad he came to the club but both reckon club have paid too much. He'd want to end up a superstar otherwise Melbourne have just shot themselves in the foot with their long term development. Big risk. Calculated risk. But big!
Melbourne wasted 3000 points on Jack Watts but are wiling to sell him for 750 points a loss worth pick 3
We spent 3000 points on Paddy, he is yet to prove himself worth any points.
We can only hope he turns out better than Watts.
Paddy will be a gun starting next year.

And feel free to bookmark my post.

He looked awesome at the B & F. Lean and mean.

He has also grown since coming to the club.

Geeez, u and I don't get on much these days but I'll kiss your feet if this is the case


Post Reply