Where are all the Lyontologists?

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672443Post Johnny Member »

Devilhead wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
Devilhead wrote:
Against average sides in Perth and depleted sides in Melbourne

Saints have beaten some average sides as well and have lost some significant players during games yet ........ we are seemingly in trouble and Freo are cruising with a new remarkable game plan

By the way what is this new remarkable game plan of Lyon's that you are banging on about ?

Did I mention that they are 3rd last for shots on goal? Doesn't seem like any anything has changed there
I'm not banging on about anything.


:shock: :roll:

"remarkable"
"Freo are cruising"
"bangin on about"
"awesome game plan"

Bit over the top don't you think?


Since in reality, I've actually used words such as "It's not awesome, nor are they."

"But they're looking half-decent"


User avatar
Devilhead
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7922
Joined: Mon 08 Mar 2004 11:56pm
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 1082 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672450Post Devilhead »

Johnny Member wrote:
Devilhead wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
Devilhead wrote:
Against average sides in Perth and depleted sides in Melbourne

Saints have beaten some average sides as well and have lost some significant players during games yet ........ we are seemingly in trouble and Freo are cruising with a new remarkable game plan

By the way what is this new remarkable game plan of Lyon's that you are banging on about ?

Did I mention that they are 3rd last for shots on goal? Doesn't seem like any anything has changed there
I'm not banging on about anything.


:shock: :roll:

"remarkable"
"Freo are cruising"
"bangin on about"
"awesome game plan"

Bit over the top don't you think?


Since in reality, I've actually used words such as "It's not awesome, nor are they."

"But they're looking half-decent"
That would mean we are looking "half-decent" considering
- who we have played against who they have played
- taking into account player outs for opponents and also player outs for us and Freo
- home ground advantage
- points scored for and against and subsequent percentages

Anyway what is Freo's/Lyon's new game plan again?


The Devil makes work for idle hands!!!
whiskers3614
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4461
Joined: Thu 20 May 2010 11:49pm
Has thanked: 116 times
Been thanked: 293 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672452Post whiskers3614 »

Just wish Eade would either win a flag or piss- off as he is delaying Lyon's ascension to his rightful place as the coach with the most games without a flag!

PS anybody who wants to back Freo to win a flag only needs to find the best odds commercially available and PM me for a 20% bonus on top.


User avatar
Linton Lodger
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon 18 Aug 2014 2:07pm
Has thanked: 86 times
Been thanked: 256 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672471Post Linton Lodger »

whiskers3614 wrote:Just wish Eade would either win a flag or piss- off as he is delaying Lyon's ascension to his rightful place as the coach with the most games without a flag!

PS anybody who wants to back Freo to win a flag only needs to find the best odds commercially available and PM me for a 20% bonus on top.
No one can see into the future, but I wouldn't bet against him winning a Premiership at Freo by the end of his contract.


User avatar
Linton Lodger
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon 18 Aug 2014 2:07pm
Has thanked: 86 times
Been thanked: 256 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672474Post Linton Lodger »

So why the bitterness towards one of our former Coaches?

Is it because he didn't stand for Nettlefold's amateur crap and reamed him?

Nettlefold and the Club deserved it. He took us to two successive Grand Finals and still they left him on a contract that they could terminate with 12 weeks notice. I'd deliver a big f**k you to them as well.


thejiggingsaint
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9354
Joined: Wed 03 Aug 2005 10:01pm
Has thanked: 625 times
Been thanked: 471 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672475Post thejiggingsaint »

The same was said about Blight during his time at Geelong (3 losing Grand Finals) i/e "he'll never win a flag"...... well we know how good THAT prediction went! I personally don't believe that Lyon's game plan can win a flag, based on the way the game is played now, however, would I put money on it? Not on your life! This IS AFL we're talking about!


St Kilda forever 🔴⚪️⚫️ ( God help me)
whiskers3614
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4461
Joined: Thu 20 May 2010 11:49pm
Has thanked: 116 times
Been thanked: 293 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672486Post whiskers3614 »

Linton Lodger wrote:So why the bitterness towards one of our former Coaches?

Is it because he didn't stand for Nettlefold's amateur crap and reamed him?

Nettlefold and the Club deserved it. He took us to two successive Grand Finals and still they left him on a contract that they could terminate with 12 weeks notice. I'd deliver a big f**k you to them as well.
Great effort to get us to the 2 GF's, but like Milne he choked on the big stage:

2009- Dempster forward,Ball splinters in his arse (22 possessions in 46% game time)whilst the next least game time apart from the rucks was Ray, Milne and Schneider none of whom covered themselves in glory on that day.
All topped off by the excuse that he "forgot" Ball on the bench,fair dinkum if you don't sack him for incompetence then you must for not being able to provide a more plausible excuse.

2010 Replay Eddy, McQualter, Baker and Peake playing including one of the above coming in injured and another (Baker)cooked whist Ball gathers a lazy 25 possessions and 7 clearances for the scum!

Long may he take Freo's money and continue to choke when it matters most!


Scollop
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10024
Joined: Sun 11 Sep 2011 2:26pm
Has thanked: 3176 times
Been thanked: 2149 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672570Post Scollop »

Linton Lodger wrote:So why the bitterness towards one of our former Coaches?

He took us to two successive Grand Finals and ...
Whoa!! Stop right there. Bevo took the Dogs to the finals and they hadn't contended a finals series for probably 5 years.

When Lyon took over in late 2006, we'd just come off PRE-LIM finals in both 2004 and 2005. History tells you that teams who have lost prelims usually go the next step very soon afterwards. Yep!! Lyons mates in the media like Paul Roos and Robert Walls did a great job of pumping up their mate and perpetuating a myth that we didn't have a good team.

As far as Lyontologists are concerned their man will always be a great coach who nearly did it for St Kilda. For the rest us we know that he failed and missed one of the best opportunities I've ever seen for a team to realise their potential. What seriously used to aggrevate the hell out of me at the time, was that he passed the buck when it came to sharing responsibility for those losses.

Right now, I'm in the Blight camp on Lyon...I don't give a fat rats tossbag


User avatar
magnifisaint
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7641
Joined: Sun 02 May 2004 2:52am
Has thanked: 187 times
Been thanked: 528 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672572Post magnifisaint »

Fremantle will never win a premiership


Posting 20 years of holey crap!
User avatar
samoht
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5682
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 10:45am
Location: https://www.amazon.com.au/Fugitive-Sold ... B00EO1GCNK
Has thanked: 559 times
Been thanked: 422 times
Contact:

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672573Post samoht »

The 0-10 coach of last year. Lyon had everyone scratching their heads and re-rating him downwards- and attributing his w/l record to the strong sides he's coached.

Good recruiting of Hill , etc..and the return of Fyfe and Sandi is the only thing that has turned things around for Freo- good recruiting and luck with injury; not Lyon - even he can't stuff it up.
If we had Freo's midfield and the outside run and carry of the Hills etc... we'd be a top 4 team!


User avatar
Joffa Burns
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7081
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 5:48pm
Has thanked: 1871 times
Been thanked: 1570 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672578Post Joffa Burns »

samoht wrote:The 0-10 coach of last year. Lyon had everyone scratching their heads and re-rating him downwards- and attributing his w/l record to the strong sides he's coached.

Good recruiting of Hill , etc..and the return of Fyfe and Sandi is the only thing that has turned things around for Freo- good recruiting and luck with injury; not Lyon - even he can't stuff it up.
Hi Grant, is that you?
What a ridiculous thing to write.

Ross is to blame for their 0-10 last year but gets no credit for their resurgence this year.
You can’t have it both ways thomas, I mean samoht!
I assume you blame Ross for recruiting Lovett to St Kilda but give him no credit for recruiting Hill to Freo, double standards?

Your hero was handed the keys to a Ferrari and couldn’t drive it to save himself.
He had the best list ever assembled by St Kilda and couldn’t make a GF let alone win one.

Ross took a list at St Kilda that most experts said had run its race and was ready to rebuild and too us to consecutive GF’s. Bad kicking in the 1st half cost us 2009, nothing more nothing less, but I guess you will blame that on Ross.

God I laugh at those on here who still see GT as the messiah!

How many clubs looked to recruit him as coach after he was sacked by St Kilda?
I guess he couldn’t get another coaching job as his best mate wasn’t President of any other club.

As Sheedy says, Ross Lyon is the smartest coach in the AFL as he has been able to negotiate the best contract.


Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
User avatar
samoht
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5682
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 10:45am
Location: https://www.amazon.com.au/Fugitive-Sold ... B00EO1GCNK
Has thanked: 559 times
Been thanked: 422 times
Contact:

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672586Post samoht »

Joffa Burns wrote:
samoht wrote:The 0-10 coach of last year. Lyon had everyone scratching their heads and re-rating him downwards- and attributing his w/l record to the strong sides he's coached.

Good recruiting of Hill , etc..and the return of Fyfe and Sandi is the only thing that has turned things around for Freo- good recruiting and luck with injury; not Lyon - even he can't stuff it up.
Ross is to blame for their 0-10 last year but gets no credit for their resurgence this year.
You can’t have it both ways thomas, I mean samoht!
I assume you blame Ross for recruiting Lovett to St Kilda but give him no credit for recruiting Hill to Freo, double standards.

As Sheedy says, Ross Lyon is the smartest coach in the AFL as he has been able to negotiate the best contract.
I repeat ...
Ross coached Freo last year to 0-10 - lost the first 10 games and people re-rated him as a coach. This happened.
That's what happens when an average coach coaches an average team with a couple of its star players injured.

Freo has recruited well this year and its stars are back - so any coach would be getting at least as much out of them.
That's all I'm saying. Have a look at its midfield - is there a better midfield?
He's a coach who does well with strong teams - a fine weathered coach - no different or better than any other coach - maybe other coaches would have got more out of Freo last year. 0-10 had everyone shaking their heads.
Does a 0-10 result smack of a great coach - the side finished top of the ladder the previous year - he had a lot to work with!
19-0 was a reflection of how strong a side Lyon coached in2009 - and 0-10 last year was the flip side of that.


User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672609Post Johnny Member »

samoht wrote:The 0-10 coach of last year. Lyon had everyone scratching their heads and re-rating him downwards- and attributing his w/l record to the strong sides he's coached.

Good recruiting of Hill , etc..and the return of Fyfe and Sandi is the only thing that has turned things around for Freo- good recruiting and luck with injury; not Lyon - even he can't stuff it up.
If we had Freo's midfield and the outside run and carry of the Hills etc... we'd be a top 4 team!
He has shuffled the deck chairs a bit.

Mundy forward, Neal spending time forward, and Walters on the ball.

But yeah, all in all he is doing pretty much the same thing - but at least he is trying to different dudes to do it!


User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672611Post Johnny Member »

Joffa Burns wrote:
Your hero was handed the keys to a Ferrari and couldn’t drive it to save himself.
He had the best list ever assembled by St Kilda and couldn’t make a GF let alone win one.
I don't agree with that at all.


The spine were children:

Penny, Maguire, Knobel/Ackland, Roo, Kosi with Dal, Ball, X in the guts.

Obviously had some handy/very good 'middle-aged' guys, but realistically that list was never a contender until the bulk of it had played 50-100 games - which it hadn't.

Not to mention that most were never on the park.


Bit of a myth that one I think.


User avatar
Joffa Burns
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7081
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 5:48pm
Has thanked: 1871 times
Been thanked: 1570 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672639Post Joffa Burns »

Johnny Member wrote:
Joffa Burns wrote:
Your hero was handed the keys to a Ferrari and couldn’t drive it to save himself.
He had the best list ever assembled by St Kilda and couldn’t make a GF let alone win one.
I don't agree with that at all.


The spine were children:

Penny, Maguire, Knobel/Ackland, Roo, Kosi with Dal, Ball, X in the guts.

Obviously had some handy/very good 'middle-aged' guys, but realistically that list was never a contender until the bulk of it had played 50-100 games - which it hadn't.

Not to mention that most were never on the park.


Bit of a myth that one I think.
The only myth is the cr@p you are peddling JM, you have no clue!

You know the club was playing before the 2000 and 2001 draft JM???

Penny, Max, Hamill, Gehrig (AA 2004), Reiwoldt (AA 2004, 2005), Peckett were children???
You mention GT's era but don't realise Gehrig & Hammil and Max were such a huge part of that era.

The great Robert Harvey (AA 2004, 2005 doesn't rate a mention), Hayes (captain in 2004 & AA in 2005 but doesnt rate a mention), Powell, Jones (AA 2004), Ball (AA 2005) Milne (FWD), Black, Guerra weren’t the back bone in 2004 and 2005??? Guerra off half forward and Powell were midfield enforcers.

He also had Bourke, Loewe and Everitt in his first 3 years at the club.
By end of 2005 Dal had played 70 games, Kossi 80 games, these were not kids.

BTW, X played half back then forward pocket, rarely played in the guts.

NO CLUE AT ALL!
Last edited by Joffa Burns on Tue 23 May 2017 5:23pm, edited 1 time in total.


Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
User avatar
Devilhead
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7922
Joined: Mon 08 Mar 2004 11:56pm
Has thanked: 122 times
Been thanked: 1082 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672648Post Devilhead »

Losing Penny, Maguire, Hamill, X Clarke and Ball to either career ending or long term injuries hurt us so so so badly - probably cost us 3 Premierships through that era :(


The Devil makes work for idle hands!!!
User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6873
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 405 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672652Post meher baba »

Goodness me, this old nonsense is still going on! We had a great list under GT in 2004-06 and it generally delivered. We almost got to the GF in 2004 when I don't think we were really ready (remembering that we were absolutely thrashed by the Lions in our first final). In 2005, we also got desperately close to the GF, even though Riewoldt was out for much of the season and we lost several key players at the end of the year. In 2006 we lost Lenny and Maguire with major leg injuries (neither of which would have been preventable by any sort of off-field injury management) and Kosi was criminally assaulted onfield, and then other injury problems emerged later in the season. We still made the finals and, if we hadn't had 2 points wrongly taken from us by the AFL, would have made the top 4.

I've read endless comments on this forum about GT having wasted his glorious chances. But, whether you consider him to have been a good, bad or indifferent coach, any fair assessment would be that the club was pretty unlucky over this period: without the loss of Hayes and Kosi and the 2 points in 2006, that could have been our winning year. Of course, there are some who want to blame GT personally for all our injuries over that period: I guess they are just looking for any excuse. An extreme case is that of Luke Ball, whose injury problems were apparently all GT's fault because he played him in too many games early on in his career (this sort of comment coming from some of the same posters who continually demand that the club "play the kids"!)

As for Lyon, he too had a pretty good list: good enough in 2009 for pretty good players in Armo and Gwilt to struggle to get a game at AFL level. Players such as Goddard, Montagna (who was never a regular first team player under GT), Sam Fisher and others really came into their own under Lyon. He was able to acquire Schneider and Dempster, who both added a lot. Sure, he used some mediocre players to perform the sorts of roles that mediocre players can perform. That was the same under GT and at every other club under every other coach: since the advent of the salary cap, it is rare for any team to be able to send 22 top grade players onto the field: perhaps the Lions in the early 2000s and the Swans more recently, but, of course, they have a different salary cap to us.

It's no secret that I was a much bigger fan of GT than Lyon. I liked the approach that Butterss- GT -Waldron adopted of trying to build our club into a long-term powerhouse. It was working well when GT was removed, and then Lyon and Nettlefold took us in a different direction. I felt extremely frustrated watching clubs like Geelong and Hawthorn persist with similar longer-term approaches and reap the rewards, while we put everything into winning just one premiership, and ultimately missed out. But, having said that, I admired Lyon's coaching abilities and their results in 2009 and 2010. But, of course, we then reaped what we had sown and are only just starting to recover now.

Can't we all (except for Teflon of course) accept that GT and Lyon both had their strengths and weaknesses and then move on?


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
White Winmar
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5014
Joined: Tue 02 Jun 2009 10:02pm

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672653Post White Winmar »

Freo recruited Hill, Hamling and McCarthy. Very impressive. As good as our trading was, I'd happily swap with them. Add Fyfe and Sandi returning, and Mundy rediscovering his form, it's little wonder they've improved. As a bit of a spoiler, have a look at their percentage. Coupled with the fact they've won three under a goal, you could say they've been lucky and maybe are not as good as their current position and record suggest. They're on the fringe with four other sides, is included. Things have fallen their way, but you can't do more than win. FWIW, Lyon is a smart operator, a good coach, but not a great one, IMHO. I doubt Freo will win a flag under him, then no one picked the WB last year, did they?


I started with nothing and I've got most of it left!
User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672655Post Johnny Member »

Devilhead wrote:Losing Penny, Maguire, Hamill, X Clarke and Ball to either career ending or long term injuries hurt us so so so badly - probably cost us 3 Premierships through that era :(

This.


User avatar
White Winmar
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5014
Joined: Tue 02 Jun 2009 10:02pm

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672656Post White Winmar »

GT and Lyon were both good coaches. I observed GT at close quarters and Lyon from further away. Both had considerable strengths, but had some flaws, as we all do. GT was an arch motivator. The young guys worshipped him and bought in completely. The older guys, not so much, but they all played for him, from what I observed (unlike Blight and Watson).

RL engendered more respect from the older group, which was not surprising as he saw them as the way to a flag. The younger guys weren't that fond of him, but that's not surprising as his main efforts went into the 25 or so that he saw as the group that would deliver. The pity is, if we had a bit of both GT and RL, who was a better teacher and tactician, we would have won multiple flags in that era.

Pity we didn't get RL as an assistance when GT wanted him. He went to the Swines and that over rated himbo, Roos. The rest is history. The two of them in our box, would've delivered, I reckon. GT the man manager, RL the tactician and strategy developer. So typical of our luck. Sliding doors and all that.


I started with nothing and I've got most of it left!
User avatar
Joffa Burns
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7081
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 5:48pm
Has thanked: 1871 times
Been thanked: 1570 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672659Post Joffa Burns »

meher baba wrote:Goodness me, this old nonsense is still going on! We had a great list under GT in 2004-06 and it generally delivered. We almost got to the GF in 2004 when I don't think we were really ready (remembering that we were absolutely thrashed by the Lions in our first final). In 2005, we also got desperately close to the GF, even though Riewoldt was out for much of the season and we lost several key players at the end of the year. In 2006 we lost Lenny and Maguire with major leg injuries (neither of which would have been preventable by any sort of off-field injury management) and Kosi was criminally assaulted onfield, and then other injury problems emerged later in the season. We still made the finals and, if we hadn't had 2 points wrongly taken from us by the AFL, would have made the top 4.

I've read endless comments on this forum about GT having wasted his glorious chances. But, whether you consider him to have been a good, bad or indifferent coach, any fair assessment would be that the club was pretty unlucky over this period: without the loss of Hayes and Kosi and the 2 points in 2006, that could have been our winning year. Of course, there are some who want to blame GT personally for all our injuries over that period: I guess they are just looking for any excuse. An extreme case is that of Luke Ball, whose injury problems were apparently all GT's fault because he played him in too many games early on in his career (this sort of comment coming from some of the same posters who continually demand that the club "play the kids"!)

As for Lyon, he too had a pretty good list: good enough in 2009 for pretty good players in Armo and Gwilt to struggle to get a game at AFL level. Players such as Goddard, Montagna (who was never a regular first team player under GT), Sam Fisher and others really came into their own under Lyon. He was able to acquire Schneider and Dempster, who both added a lot. Sure, he used some mediocre players to perform the sorts of roles that mediocre players can perform. That was the same under GT and at every other club under every other coach: since the advent of the salary cap, it is rare for any team to be able to send 22 top grade players onto the field: perhaps the Lions in the early 2000s and the Swans more recently, but, of course, they have a different salary cap to us.

It's no secret that I was a much bigger fan of GT than Lyon. I liked the approach that Butterss- GT -Waldron adopted of trying to build our club into a long-term powerhouse. It was working well when GT was removed, and then Lyon and Nettlefold took us in a different direction. I felt extremely frustrated watching clubs like Geelong and Hawthorn persist with similar longer-term approaches and reap the rewards, while we put everything into winning just one premiership, and ultimately missed out. But, having said that, I admired Lyon's coaching abilities and their results in 2009 and 2010. But, of course, we then reaped what we had sown and are only just starting to recover now.

Can't we all (except for Teflon of course) accept that GT and Lyon both had their strengths and weaknesses and then move on?
Good read and unbiased.
I dont necessarily agree with the luck conspiring against GT but your points are valid.
I do think soft tissue are not luck injuries and are poor management, but impact injuries like Maguire just happen.
Ball was an interesting one, I heard him state at a sportsmans lunch that playing through OP in his early years robbed him of pace and flexibility, so there is some truth in that.

I absolutely believe GT had an absolutely far superior list than RL and that had we got an experienced coach after Blight but follwed th rebuild through the draft path things would have been different.

As a firm supporter of RL over GT, I ponder this.
Freo offered a fortune for RL, where did GT coach and who wanted him after he got sacked?


Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
User avatar
Joffa Burns
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7081
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 5:48pm
Has thanked: 1871 times
Been thanked: 1570 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672661Post Joffa Burns »

Johnny Member wrote:
Devilhead wrote:Losing Penny, Maguire, Hamill, X Clarke and Ball to either career ending or long term injuries hurt us so so so badly - probably cost us 3 Premierships through that era :(

This.
You really are a member :lol:

From the guy who didn't rate Gehrig, Harvey, Hamill, Hayes, Powell, Jones, Max, Milne, Peckett as part of our core in GT's era :lol: :lol: :lol:


Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
User avatar
Johnny Member
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672663Post Johnny Member »

Joffa Burns wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
Joffa Burns wrote:
Your hero was handed the keys to a Ferrari and couldn’t drive it to save himself.
He had the best list ever assembled by St Kilda and couldn’t make a GF let alone win one.
I don't agree with that at all.


The spine were children:

Penny, Maguire, Knobel/Ackland, Roo, Kosi with Dal, Ball, X in the guts.

Obviously had some handy/very good 'middle-aged' guys, but realistically that list was never a contender until the bulk of it had played 50-100 games - which it hadn't.

Not to mention that most were never on the park.


Bit of a myth that one I think.
The only myth is the cr@p you are peddling JM, you have no clue!

You know the club was playing before the 2000 and 2001 draft JM???

Penny, Max, Hamill, Gehrig (AA 2004), Reiwoldt (AA 2004, 2005), Peckett were children???
You mention GT's era but don't realise Gehrig & Hammil and Max were such a huge part of that era.

The great Robert Harvey (AA 2004, 2005 doesn't rate a mention), Hayes (captain in 2004 & AA in 2005 but doesnt rate a mention), Powell, Jones (AA 2004), Ball (AA 2005) Milne (FWD), Black, Guerra weren’t the back bone in 2004 and 2005??? Guerra off half forward and Powell were midfield enforcers.

He also had Bourke, Loewe and Everitt in his first 3 years at the club.
By end of 2005 Dal had played 70 games, Kossi 80 games, these were not kids.

BTW, X played half back then forward pocket, rarely played in the guts.

NO CLUE AT ALL!

I respectfully disagree.


Not about the NO CLUE bit, you're probably about that bit.


Darth Vader
Club Player
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 11:04pm
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 70 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672665Post Darth Vader »

meher baba wrote:Goodness me, this old nonsense is still going on! We had a great list under GT in 2004-06 and it generally delivered. We almost got to the GF in 2004 when I don't think we were really ready (remembering that we were absolutely thrashed by the Lions in our first final). In 2005, we also got desperately close to the GF, even though Riewoldt was out for much of the season and we lost several key players at the end of the year. In 2006 we lost Lenny and Maguire with major leg injuries (neither of which would have been preventable by any sort of off-field injury management) and Kosi was criminally assaulted onfield, and then other injury problems emerged later in the season. We still made the finals and, if we hadn't had 2 points wrongly taken from us by the AFL, would have made the top 4.

I've read endless comments on this forum about GT having wasted his glorious chances. But, whether you consider him to have been a good, bad or indifferent coach, any fair assessment would be that the club was pretty unlucky over this period: without the loss of Hayes and Kosi and the 2 points in 2006, that could have been our winning year. Of course, there are some who want to blame GT personally for all our injuries over that period: I guess they are just looking for any excuse. An extreme case is that of Luke Ball, whose injury problems were apparently all GT's fault because he played him in too many games early on in his career (this sort of comment coming from some of the same posters who continually demand that the club "play the kids"!)

As for Lyon, he too had a pretty good list: good enough in 2009 for pretty good players in Armo and Gwilt to struggle to get a game at AFL level. Players such as Goddard, Montagna (who was never a regular first team player under GT), Sam Fisher and others really came into their own under Lyon. He was able to acquire Schneider and Dempster, who both added a lot. Sure, he used some mediocre players to perform the sorts of roles that mediocre players can perform. That was the same under GT and at every other club under every other coach: since the advent of the salary cap, it is rare for any team to be able to send 22 top grade players onto the field: perhaps the Lions in the early 2000s and the Swans more recently, but, of course, they have a different salary cap to us.

It's no secret that I was a much bigger fan of GT than Lyon. I liked the approach that Butterss- GT -Waldron adopted of trying to build our club into a long-term powerhouse. It was working well when GT was removed, and then Lyon and Nettlefold took us in a different direction. I felt extremely frustrated watching clubs like Geelong and Hawthorn persist with similar longer-term approaches and reap the rewards, while we put everything into winning just one premiership, and ultimately missed out. But, having said that, I admired Lyon's coaching abilities and their results in 2009 and 2010. But, of course, we then reaped what we had sown and are only just starting to recover now.

Can't we all (except for Teflon of course) accept that GT and Lyon both had their strengths and weaknesses and then move on?

Very good post Only thing lacking is a response from Barks4Eva calling you a numb-nuts, flog-tossing, todger-whacker and I'll feel like we're back in the good old days.


User avatar
samoht
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5682
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 10:45am
Location: https://www.amazon.com.au/Fugitive-Sold ... B00EO1GCNK
Has thanked: 559 times
Been thanked: 422 times
Contact:

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1672669Post samoht »

GT, RL, AR -- makes little difference - AFL coaches more or less negate each other at the end of the day.

Freo happens to be a very strong team this year - and was a top 2 team in 2015 - but under the same coach last year they were 0-10.
A couple of key injuries and a drop in form of a couple of players can do that. That's all it took for Freo to fall from grace.

Conversely, some excellent recruiting and the return from injury of a couple of star players can turn things around.

No coach should be considered special. Circumstances/ fortunes change - and coaches are victims or beneficiaries of these changing fortunes.

If we're looking for people to lionise ( pun intended)....
Recruiters are the people who can make a real difference and who can shape a teams fortunes - 1 good recruiter is worth 10 good coaches and some of them (the good recruiters) could and should be considered special. Instead we marvel at a coach's w/l ratio. Silly, really.


Post Reply