Too much running?

[Bluthy]

From Dunstans season review http://www.saints.com.au/news/2016-09-1 ... ke-dunstan

"Not unlike Membrey 12 months ago, who had a big running program whilst he recovered from his shoulder reconstruction, Luke will have the opportunity to train and get better in that area whilst he’s rehabilitates his shoulder. It could be a silver lining of his injury, like it was with Membrey.”

So if Members had a huge running program in the season, that could explain why he was so good this year - he was able to work so damn hard to make space, put frontal pressure on, make repeat leads etc. That all seems great yeah? But....

Will Members be able to back that up? Is such huge running loads sustainable and good for the long term? There is a parallel there with Bruce who had that incredible season before last where he was putting amazing frontal pressure on, running his ass off that defenders didn't seem to be able to go with and getting good seperation. But then this year he's looked quite tired and a bit flat (even though he did still did pretty well).

Brerton has said he though that Port Adelaide players were burnt out by the huge running loads they did when they were too young - remember all that hype about how hard they ran?. Richo came from PA. Could there be parallels there we should be a bit concerned about?

No suprise I am worried we rely a bit too much on pressure as our main brand which is pretty taxing. I don't know if we have the really clever systems that underpin efficiency for teams to get through a marathon AFL season and have enough in the tank to win in September which are the most taxing, brutal games of the year. I've always liked teams that can keep the ball and let the ball do a lot of the work - Hawks are the masters of this. Geelong as well they way they have moved the footy quickly, even with handballs with clever players like Bartel, for a long time means they are constantly making the oppo move and chase and get out of position and wearing them out whilst they keep the footy.

Having to consistently work you guts out to get the ball back off the oppo because you turn it over with poor disposal it I think was a flaw in Lyon's approach. I hope we are not relying too much on running and pressure that can wear young players out. Even some of these players we are hunting like Steele and Laverde strike me more in the "hard running pressure" mode than "keep the footy" priority.

[BringBackMadDog]

God you can really are the worlds greatest pessimist arent you? Maybe Bruce had a down year because opposition put more time into him and he found himself competing against 2-3 defenders all the time which just so happens to have helped Membrey as he could free wheel and be the go-to option. I think its brilliant that Bruce didn't have the same dominating season yet we were more than 2 goals per game better off in terms of scores for.
Next year opposition will have nightmares working out who to go to, especially when you add Paddy to that equation. Thats why its so important to have multiple dangerous options going forward

[Trev from the Bush]

I'm with you Bluthy. I'll refer my missus to your post when she puts the acid on me to get of the couch!

[Griggsy]

I'd hope sport scientists have a better idea of the long term impact of running than that dumbo Brereton.

[Johnny Member]

I think you're right Bluthy. We should run less. We should also apply less pressure.


Oddly though, the best coach in history doesn't agree with us.......



"I haven't known a premiership outfit or a high quality finals performer in the last 80 years [to] be soft at the footy," Clarkson said.

"So every coach and player in the competition wants to play that way knowing full well that you won't win finals unless you are that way.

"I looked at the Bulldogs last week and they were more ferocious at the contest than West Coast, I look at GWS and they were more ferocious than what Sydney were.

"The reason our game was so close was because the ferocity at the contest was pretty evenly matched by both sides. If we get the better of the Dogs in that regard then we'll probably win the game but if it's vice versa ... it's pretty simple really."

[Bluthy]

I think you're right Bluthy. We should run less. We should also apply less pressure.


Oddly though, the best coach in history doesn't agree with us.......



"I haven't known a premiership outfit or a high quality finals performer in the last 80 years [to] be soft at the footy," Clarkson said.

"So every coach and player in the competition wants to play that way knowing full well that you won't win finals unless you are that way.

"I looked at the Bulldogs last week and they were more ferocious at the contest than West Coast, I look at GWS and they were more ferocious than what Sydney were.

"The reason our game was so close was because the ferocity at the contest was pretty evenly matched by both sides. If we get the better of the Dogs in that regard then we'll probably win the game but if it's vice versa ... it's pretty simple really."

Ah, we're going to dance again Johnny!

So all the teams play tough pressure football and hard running. So I wonder why Hawks and Cats have won so many flags? Maybe because their UNDERLYING SYSTEM is so clever it gives them an edge? Or maybe they have just fluked it. I'm a believer you make your own luck. There is nothing lucky about what Clarkson has done. He is a genius who drills in his teams in clever on field systems and constantly evolves them to stay ahead of the pack. Work smarter, not harder.

[Johnny Member]

No, their underlying system is pressure and intensity.

It's the cornerstone. As Clarkson said.

The strategies, game plans etc. all come off the back of high pressure and intensity.

[Bardon Saint]

I believe last year there was some uncertainty on Members position and role. We were seeking to use him as a big bodied pinch hitting midfielder. Similar to Hamill at times for very brief periods or I suppose how DMartin was in the earlier part of his career. DMartin now evolved into more mid/fwd than fwd/mid.

As it has turned out, Members has exceeded expectations as a third tall this year so we'd be crazy to rotate him through the middle. Obviously there's still been a pay off in developing his endurance particularly with repeated leads and defensive work.

[Johnny Member]

Ah, we're going to dance again Johnny!

We're not dancing. You're speaking absolute nonsense, and I'm simply pointing it out.

So all the teams play tough pressure football and hard running. So I wonder why Hawks and Cats have won so many flags? Maybe because their UNDERLYING SYSTEM is so clever it gives them an edge? Or maybe they have just fluked it. I'm a believer you make your own luck. There is nothing lucky about what Clarkson has done. He is a genius who drills in his teams in clever on field systems and constantly evolves them to stay ahead of the pack. Work smarter, not harder.

I can honestly say, that is the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on a footy forum.

Can you imagine a player walking into a coach, and saying "Coach, we're working too hard. Too much running, and too much pressure on the opposition. I think we need to pull it back a little."

I seriously can't believe you just wrote that.

[CQ SAINT]

I think someone should have told Roo this 16 years ago. Might have extended his career a bit.

[Bluthy]

Ah, we're going to dance again Johnny!

We're not dancing. You're speaking absolute nonsense, and I'm simply pointing it out.

So all the teams play tough pressure football and hard running. So I wonder why Hawks and Cats have won so many flags? Maybe because their UNDERLYING SYSTEM is so clever it gives them an edge? Or maybe they have just fluked it. I'm a believer you make your own luck. There is nothing lucky about what Clarkson has done. He is a genius who drills in his teams in clever on field systems and constantly evolves them to stay ahead of the pack. Work smarter, not harder.

I can honestly say, that is the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on a footy forum.

Can you imagine a player walking into a coach, and saying "Coach, we're working too hard. Too much running, and too much pressure on the opposition. I think we need to pull it back a little."

I seriously can't believe you just wrote that.

You are the Dangerfield of strawmen. That was a 3 vote strawman performance if ever I saw one. Beautiful inside work to position yourself above me "I can honestly say, that is the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on a footy forum"

Then getting it on the outside of my arguement so you can set up the strawman to be standing so preciously and ridiculously "Coach, we're working too hard. Too much running, and too much pressure on the opposition. I think we need to pull it back a little."

And finally the big don't argue and kick the strawman down as you salute the crowd "I seriously can't believe you just wrote that"

Brilliant, brilliant. You are an artist of the strawman field and a showman to boot! I am blessed to have you grace my humble topics such Johnny Strawman.

[Bluthy]

I think someone should have told Roo this 16 years ago. Might have extended his career a bit.

Rooey's a freak. He should have been in a freak show as "The Running Man: See this abomination of nature run a marathon each weekend with constant leading! It shouldn't be possible! Look in horror as he drains his kneed of 2L of fluid each week!"

[felix]

How the hell do you bear GWS abd Dogs ...without extreme running and extreme pressure. I fail to understand that if you apply less of both of these you become a bettef team ..ludicrous indeed it is.

[Spinner]

Such a weird look on non issues...

[Linton Lodger]

From Dunstans season review http://www.saints.com.au/news/2016-09-1 ... ke-dunstan

"Not unlike Membrey 12 months ago, who had a big running program whilst he recovered from his shoulder reconstruction, Luke will have the opportunity to train and get better in that area whilst he’s rehabilitates his shoulder. It could be a silver lining of his injury, like it was with Membrey.”

So if Members had a huge running program in the season, that could explain why he was so good this year - he was able to work so damn hard to make space, put frontal pressure on, make repeat leads etc. That all seems great yeah? But....

Will Members be able to back that up? Is such huge running loads sustainable and good for the long term? There is a parallel there with Bruce who had that incredible season before last where he was putting amazing frontal pressure on, running his ass off that defenders didn't seem to be able to go with and getting good seperation. But then this year he's looked quite tired and a bit flat (even though he did still did pretty well).

Brerton has said he though that Port Adelaide players were burnt out by the huge running loads they did when they were too young - remember all that hype about how hard they ran?. Richo came from PA. Could there be parallels there we should be a bit concerned about?

No suprise I am worried we rely a bit too much on pressure as our main brand which is pretty taxing. I don't know if we have the really clever systems that underpin efficiency for teams to get through a marathon AFL season and have enough in the tank to win in September which are the most taxing, brutal games of the year. I've always liked teams that can keep the ball and let the ball do a lot of the work - Hawks are the masters of this. Geelong as well they way they have moved the footy quickly, even with handballs with clever players like Bartel, for a long time means they are constantly making the oppo move and chase and get out of position and wearing them out whilst they keep the footy.

Having to consistently work you guts out to get the ball back off the oppo because you turn it over with poor disposal it I think was a flaw in Lyon's approach. I hope we are not relying too much on running and pressure that can wear young players out. Even some of these players we are hunting like Steele and Laverde strike me more in the "hard running pressure" mode than "keep the footy" priority.

Such is the foundation and core of Premiership Teams, you get that right before anything else.

There's been much talk about the Bulldogs in the last couple of weeks, that they cannot be intimidated. Its true to a large extent, but they are intimdated by us.

We are not just a pressure team, we also move the ball at lightening speed, whether by hand or by foot. Our offensive game will evolve and then look out.

I think Port Adelaide's issues have more to do with injuries to key players, the suspension of Ryder & Monfries and the loss of Richo.

[Trev from the Bush]

I think someone should have told Roo this 16 years ago. Might have extended his career a bit.

Excactamondo!

[WellardSaint]

I must say that I agree with Bluthy 100%.
"Cap on rotations" is one reason.
If players' rotations and rest is restricted, then obviously their efficiency suffers.
Repeat efforts will become harder.
Kicking accuracy suffers e.g. "the kick missed the mark, it was a tired kick"
goals are missed, targets are missed.
Emphasis MUST be on learning a game plan and strategies until they can do it in their sleep a la Matrix.
Because if a team can execute well, and get value on inside 50's, then it makes the oppo's job so much harder.
While the other team is running their guts out, the skilled team can force a turnover, and just go coast to coast as the enemy is caught out of position
and has no energy to chase.

[WellardSaint]

Oh, another thing.
Bruce has had a quiet year (by 2015 standards)
but the coaches say "he is working so damned hard during a game"
Is he burnt out? Stop asking him to be a ruckman then.
He's doing too much and it's quantity not quality this year, for whatever reason.
Our tired mids can't deliver ball to his leads accurately as THEIR KICKS are tired kicks !
Arrrrrgghhhh
Bluth is correct, our guys being tired affects Bruce as he can't go one out because poor entry into F50 lets defenders come back and flood.

[Johnny Member]

I must say that I agree with Bluthy 100%.
While the other team is running their guts out, the skilled team can force a turnover, and just go coast to coast as the enemy is caught out of position
and has no energy to chase.

So how exactly are they going to force this turnover?

[saintsRrising]

Someone better tell Luke that running too much, and great pressure, is bad and that it is not the way to beat the Hawks. Surely if they had just slowed things down and given the Hawks the time and space that they think they like it would have led to a much bigger victory.

[Bluthy]

Someone better tell Luke that running too much, and great pressure, is bad and that it is not the way to beat the Hawks. Surely if they had just slowed things down and given the Hawks the time and space that they think they like it would have led to a much bigger victory.

Beveridge has come out of the clever hawks zoning system - same as Bolton. Its a system that seems to maximise efficiencies on the field. Guys don't necessarily chase their guy all over the field. They drop off and let someone else in another zone pick them up- similar to soccer as Clarkson has studied soccer system extensively. It leaves them plenty in the tank when it is their time to pressure and run.

HOw many times do you see Hawks get caught out the back and let the oppo get cheap goals - they almost always have guys covering at the back (cats are good at this cover too). And yet they are also one of the best teams at stretching teams going forward. How do they manage this seeming contradiction? I think its the secret of their success (along with good drafting and strong admin). Its their clever zoning system.

Of course you have to run hard at AFL level (and bring pressure) but its how smart you do over the course of a game and the course of a marathon season that can give you an edge.

[saint3d]

I think someone should have told Roo this 16 years ago. Might have extended his career a bit.

Excactamondo!

I wish they'd told Banger too.

[BigMart]

Not enough running IMO

All players that improve...nene rally do so on the back of increased aerobic ability

[Moods]

Too much running?

Not sure that is possible. From what I hear Port had a superb running program that was quite different to other clubs. They barely ran anything more than 100m. It was extremely intense with recovery and then go again. AFL is not an aerobic sport, it's anaerobic. Other clubs would have taken note and they would have quickly lost that edge they had on other clubs.

I do agree with Bluthy to a certain degree on some things though. I think it's extremely important to have great structures and systems in place. It's what kept the Hawks so strong for so long. They are so efficient going fwd it's ridiculous. I was a massive rap for RL when he coached us, but it felt like in the end there was no real system. The game plan was based purely on pressure in the fwd line and rely on turnovers, or hope that Roo marks the pill. Now to be able to apply pressure is a work of coaching genius in itself. Everyone sets out to apply pressure, but you have to have players in the correct positions on the ground to ensure that you're not outnumbered at the contest for starters. This is far harder than it sounds. I'm comfortable with our game plan right now, however I'd like to see us rely a little less on the sling shot (as exciting as it is) and work the ball in to hit players up. Sling shot rarely occurs against the good teams.

Overall though I'm happy with what Richo is doing

Good discussion by Bluthy and well worth talking about

[Johnny Member]

Emphasis MUST be on learning a game plan and strategies until they can do it in their sleep a la Matrix.
Because if a team can execute well, and get value on inside 50's, then it makes the oppo's job so much harder.
While the other team is running their guts out, the skilled team can force a turnover, and just go coast to coast as the enemy is caught out of position
and has no energy to chase.

I simply can't comprehend this logic.


Firstly, are you, like Bluthy, suggesting that we don't actually have any other strategies other than 'run hard and pressure'?

Do you believe, like Bluthy, that we employ 10 coaches to rock up to the club each day and come up with nothing other than 'run hard, tackle and pressure boys!'?


Secondly, how did West Coast's 'web' go in the GF last year when the heat was turned on by Hawthorn? That strategy was brilliant, and worked really well most of the year when the West Coast players were winning contests and putting the oppostion under intense pressure when they had the ball.

But happened in the GF when Hawthorn won contests through fierce intensity, and were able to use the ball more cleanly due to a lack of pressure from West Coast?

The 'web' became nothing more than a bunch of witches hats standing around watching the ball go past them. Same thing happened last week against the dogs.


And what about Friday night? When Hawthorn were winning contests and pressuring the Dogs intensely, they were 5 goals up and unlucky not to be further in front. Then what happened? You guessed it - the Dogs started wining the contests and monstering Hawthorn with pressure and suddenly they're 40 points in front.


Strategies simply don't work without fierce pressure, intensity and hard running. It's the cornerstone of the whole caper.


Now we all know of course, that a team hasn't won a flag through pressure alone for about 15 years. But as per my earlier question - you can't possibly believe that the coaching panel aren't simultaneously implementing dozens of strategies also?

Seriously?