changes for this week

[borderbarry]

I would give Pierce a run. With or without Hickey.
Is Fisher due back this week?

[coopergrech]

In: Fisher, Templeton, Lee , Shenton
Out: Webster, Geary , Lonie, Sinclair (ALL DROPPED)

Would like to see Minch back in to but for who is the question.

[The OtherThommo]

We all but beat the Hawks, and all but beat North. West Coast at home was always going to be one of the more difficult games for us. Yes it was a fail, and mainly from a pretty good opposition midfield at that.

I would have a serious look at getting support for Hickey, and further than that, if someone genuinely needs a rest make one change through the mid, so that's two changes...Pierce and Eli for Lonie and Armitage

Essendon challenged North.

Am I the only one who thinks North are pretenders?

Hawks shadow of last year.

I think the footy barometer is a bit off this year, hard to judge a side against another.

It's as simple as judging the saints against the saints, which is like hills and valleys right now.

It generally is tough to judge one side vs another, K, and place it within the context of a season.

I tend to agree re Norf being pretenders. They lack outside speed and midfield class - there's Norf with Wells, and then there's Norf without Wells.

The Dork's might look to be a shadow, but I'd wait on that - they do have habits.

Swans seemed to be going OK, then got tipped over by the Tiggs. Puddy Cats have won a couple of useful results but, as usual, the draw's favourable. Craws, also as usual, get ahead of themselves. Dogs coping well with the loss of Murphy and the Swedish fella at half back, but can it last? GWS the most impressive up to now, methinks.

But, that lot are not what worries me. Going into the season, Caaaaarlton were touted as competing with the Dopers for who would win the least games. Yet, they've won 4 on the trot. Not high fliers they've beaten, to be sure, to be sure - but they have outperformed, by a large distance. How? Consistent effort. Has to be, their list is awful. Liam Jones?!?!

Like others, I an worried when Richardson says the b. trust didn't see Sunday "coming". If, as someone else mentioned, Jack Newnes (who is a solid type, and not prone to psychological damage from a game like the Norf affair) was talking mid-week about difficulties with unrewarded effort, then the b.trust damn well should have known, and recognised the danger. The compadres and I recognised the danger in the Victory Room (and later at the Mail Exchange) straight after the Norf game.

As others have said (yes, you too, Bluthy) they picked a very vulnerable outfit, particularly in the back half. It was a very high risk strategy and, at a minimum, was likely to exacerbate the sense of futility apparent in what Newnes seems to have said. We absolutely needed everything to go right, and with Natanui in good form the game was never likely to be one we could play on our terms, or even hope to be bendable to our will. We needed some goddamn contingent thinking at the selection table, didn't get it, and got smashed.

A strategic and tactical disaster. And, what is to be learned? Nothing that should not have been known going in. Concerns, real concerns. After the Norf game, on the back of beating the Dees, a fair old number got carried away with the idea we were the best side outside the 8.

That nonsense was largely borne of playing an attractive brand when we get it something like right. Big deal.

Carlton have won twice as many games as us by, firstly, being hard(ish) to play against. It's the Clarkson (and others) method - be hard to beat, and go from there.

I'm worried, and no amount of excuses dressed up in football jargon will ease my worried brow. I don't gravitate to pessimism as a natural resort, and I never grab at quick solutions. But, I didn't pick this handle for nothing.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think we risk blowing up some players for the entire year who now look cooked

So out

Hickey rested
Armo rested
Acres form
Webster form
one of Lonie/ Sinclair - Form

in
Fisher
Templeton
Murdoch
Longer or Pierce
Shenton (seems like in our best every week in the VFL)

So we just pick Gilbert automatically without question? Protected species on here.

Agree with some of the others though. Give Murdoch and Eli a game against weaker opposition and give Hickey a rest and give Pierce a shot.
We also need to know if Armo is carrying an injury?

[BigMart]

Heads would roll (as a matter of principle) after that performance.

At least 5 out!!!

[Con Gorozidis]

We all but beat the Hawks, and all but beat North. West Coast at home was always going to be one of the more difficult games for us. Yes it was a fail, and mainly from a pretty good opposition midfield at that.

I would have a serious look at getting support for Hickey, and further than that, if someone genuinely needs a rest make one change through the mid, so that's two changes...Pierce and Eli for Lonie and Armitage

Essendon challenged North.

Am I the only one who thinks North are pretenders?

Hawks shadow of last year.

I think the footy barometer is a bit off this year, hard to judge a side against another.

It's as simple as judging the saints against the saints, which is like hills and valleys right now.

It generally is tough to judge one side vs another, K, and place it within the context of a season.

I tend to agree re Norf being pretenders. They lack outside speed and midfield class - there's Norf with Wells, and then there's Norf without Wells.

The Dork's might look to be a shadow, but I'd wait on that - they do have habits.

Swans seemed to be going OK, then got tipped over by the Tiggs. Puddy Cats have won a couple of useful results but, as usual, the draw's favourable. Craws, also as usual, get ahead of themselves. Dogs coping well with the loss of Murphy and the Swedish fella at half back, but can it last? GWS the most impressive up to now, methinks.

But, that lot are not what worries me. Going into the season, Caaaaarlton were touted as competing with the Dopers for who would win the least games. Yet, they've won 4 on the trot. Not high fliers they've beaten, to be sure, to be sure - but they have outperformed, by a large distance. How? Consistent effort. Has to be, their list is awful. Liam Jones?!?!

Like others, I an worried when Richardson says the b. trust didn't see Sunday "coming". If, as someone else mentioned, Jack Newnes (who is a solid type, and not prone to psychological damage from a game like the Norf affair) was talking mid-week about difficulties with unrewarded effort, then the b.trust damn well should have known, and recognised the danger. The compadres and I recognised the danger in the Victory Room (and later at the Mail Exchange) straight after the Norf game.

As others have said (yes, you too, Bluthy) they picked a very vulnerable outfit, particularly in the back half. It was a very high risk strategy and, at a minimum, was likely to exacerbate the sense of futility apparent in what Newnes seems to have said. We absolutely needed everything to go right, and with Natanui in good form the game was never likely to be one we could play on our terms, or even hope to be bendable to our will. We needed some goddamn contingent thinking at the selection table, didn't get it, and got smashed.

A strategic and tactical disaster. And, what is to be learned? Nothing that should not have been known going in. Concerns, real concerns. After the Norf game, on the back of beating the Dees, a fair old number got carried away with the idea we were the best side outside the 8.

That nonsense was largely borne of playing an attractive brand when we get it something like right. Big deal.

Carlton have won twice as many games as us by, firstly, being hard(ish) to play against. It's the Clarkson (and others) method - be hard to beat, and go from there.

I'm worried, and no amount of excuses dressed up in football jargon will ease my worried brow. I don't gravitate to pessimism as a natural resort, and I never grab at quick solutions. But, I didn't pick this handle for nothing.

My concern is that we are becoming a poor man's Port. We go on about being brave and effort all day long but we give up SO MANY easy goals from turnovers. No amount of effort and intensity can make up for that.

[desertsaint]

let's not swing too far back on the pendulum. we're decent enough for where we've come from. Might have screwed ourselves the last draft/trade period, but some of the lads are coming on okay. Still two years worth of quality draft picks and good trades away from being a genuine finals contender. Our midfield stocks are low, we all know that. Poor enough for the club to take a very risky punt on Freeman. But for now we're good enough to almost beat most at our very best. I guess the greater the expectation, the greater the concern. Too many got blinded by pushing the hawks and roos and overestimate both where we're at and where we're headed. The current team, without additions, isn't headed far - fringe of the eight in a couple of years at best. It all comes down to who we add and whether we'll have anyone of similar quality to Roo, Joey, Dempster, and Fisher.

[saintsRrising]

Do you select on one game, or on a series of games?

I think the club will go with the former.

After a 100 point thrashing and that first quarter surrender a club would often be tempted for many changes. But I doubt the club will want to rock the boat for the very winnable game against the dons. And too many changes could do this. Plus so far this year the team has rebounded strongly after poor games.

The wild card too is will the club want to use it as a game to blood players? The 100+ point debacle makes this less likely, at least en-masse.

IMO too the player type we most need to bring in is midfielders, and we lack good true midfielders at Sandy.

Fisher if fit will be back. This allows Gilbert to rotate through the midfield. Lee will probably be still again, but after solid gams after going back is dserved of a recall.

Lonie must be on the chopping block after a poor season and quiet game. Acres and Sinclair less so as while poor against the Weagles, thet were good the weak prior.
Some have said Membrey, but e had two good games prior to that and when you are playing the "third tall" ina team generating few forward entries it is a tough gig. o way would I demote him.

McCartin and Pierce may get a look in, but I doubt that both will be selected.

Templeton has been having a good year at Sandy and may be given a recall. Bull has beeing going ok and may be given a chance if the selectors want to mix things up a bit.

I suspect the selectors will make say 2 changes, 3 at most. Lonie and one other out.

[samuraisaint]

Will only be Fish in, Lonie out. Almost guarantee it with my life. Richo and the match committee are risk averse. We are at the bottom of the "players used" table. They've decided this whole "development" approach is over-rated. Richo must have been on the blower to Lyon getting his approach to youth development ie leave them to rot in the VFL and play your old good ordinary players until they physically can't play any more.

Criticism of Richo and the coaching staff for lack of youth development is the craziest thing I've ever read on the internet.....and I've read some crazy things

We're bottom of the players used list because we've pretty much had zero injuries.

Who is in the VFL banging down the door, that hasn't been tried and found short in the seniors??

Lee. I thought he played okay against GWS. He was our best for Sandy last weekend. He could come in. Murdoch has been good. Pierce is another who is performing well.
Shenton has been okay too, apparently.
Has Curren been playing okay?
That is 5 players right there. I think if you lose a game by over 100 points, making 3 changes is mandatory; not too many, but players need to be turned over and given an opportunity to show what they can do.

[To the top]

In terms of the bigger picture, EVERY side looks to improve their list season on season and particularly now we have Free Agency to "speed up" that improvement over and above the longer term reliance on Drafting.

The benefit of Drafting given a low finish during the prior season has lost some "gloss' because of Free Agency and trading because it allows the introduction of mature and more mature players to put protection around those drafted.

Free Agency also sees the loss of mature players alongside high Draft picks

So, very briefly, that is the mix which leads to AFL Lists today.

St Kilda have a (remaining given some now play elsewhere) core of experienced players who are absolutely relied upon being Riewoldt and Fisher (as key position players) then Dempster (now being asked to perform as a key position player) then Montagna and Gilbert.

This core is not assisted by Free Agency players - at this stage.

We have recruited starting with Hickey and Longer as ruckmen, then Carlisle (as a key defender), Bruce (who has turned out to be a key forward) and Freeman (who I would not mind speculating St Kilda had an eye on v Billings, so were always interested).

We have "accrued" the likes of Roberton, Savage, Weller, Delaney and Membrey from other Clubs - but there was no competition in "accruing" those players - and why I do not see them as a part of a successful future, unlike those named in the prior paragraph.

It is the same as Upgrades from a Rookie List, nice romance but if they were not Drafted with high Draft Picks there is the commentary on them hence you rely on "romance" and you do not buikld teams on "romance"

Hence I do not include Upgraded Rookies as a part of a successful future.

So, given we have no Free Agency players and only 4 we have pro actively recruited (and Carlisle the only one of those who was established when recruited), we are currently totally reliant on our senior core and those we have drafted with Picks inside 20 - because those who slip to below that do so for a reason and can not be relied upon to be premier performers (the Drafting process sees to that so you do not get a mature age Fisher from West Adelaide with the Pick we got him at - although we tried again with Lee who cost us a much higher Pick than Fisher did).

So the future remains the development of McCartin, Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Gresham and Goddard.

Plus the workhorses being the lower Draft Picks including the likes of Newnes and Ross - not "Stars" but they can contribute to performance under the cover of the "stars".

Then there are the likes of Armitage and Steven, with Armitage being a high Draft Pick and Steven slipping on "under age".

Then consider those sides who do not have access to high Draft Picks trading and offering "Free Agency" destinations - because they so trade to improve.

We have to establish a way to improve far quicker because of where we sit in the competition - and relying on higher Draft Picks maturing to elite will not do it because they start out as 18 year olds in a man's game.

We need more to bridge the immediate gap and then improve the List at a more rapid rate that other Clubs do - and that is Free Agency and judicious trading (but who do we lose to get who?).

The foregoing means, to me, that the core of our side picks itself - because of how and where these core players came from and how.

They are hand selected and have not fallen off a truck, so to speak.

That is the foundation in also building a List where player nominally 30 on our List can be favorably traded - because they are an attraction to other Clubs.

We currently do not have that depth to enter those games.

And that lack of depth sees results like last weekend.

Our defence was very, very experienced except in key defenders (despite some being tall) and our attack had a plethora of "smalls" who did not contribute and who could not assist in the mid field.

[saintsRrising]

I think Membrey and Roberton were both free agents.

[Jacks Back]

Out: Lonie, Gilbert, Armitage
Ins:
Fisher,
Minchington (plays on-ball for majority of game for once instead of one bounce per game and comes in in lieu of Armo),
McCartin (Membrey plays smaller pocket type roll in lieu of Lonie thus allowing Rooey to roam the wings more).

[borderbarry]

McKenzie was among the best for Sandy at the weekend. His dash from defence would be handy. He should be given a go before some of the others being touted.

[MC Gusto]

Love to see dmac in.

[To the top]

Neither Roberton nor Membrey were established players at their previous Clubs and (correct me if I am wrong) were not high Draft Picks when drafted so were not considered elite juniors.

Granted neither Longer nor Freeman were established players at their Clubs but they were First Round if not top 10 Draft Picks when drafted.

Hickey was I think zoned or a priority pick.

So Calisle is the only player traded in so far who was an established and sought player in the AFL competition.

Hence no comparison between Carlisle and Roberton and Membrey - or Savage or Weller etc. etc. all of whom "fell of a truck" to arrive at St Kilda.

So we need to identify and attract further Carlisle type players to assist our experienced players and our high Draft Pick players (ie top 20 Draft Picks) and put more genuine class and depth in our List.

That depth will also allow us to trade effectively.

[saintbob]

Out: Lonie - looks lost this year
Dunstan

In: Fisher
Minchington

[longtimesaint]

Out: Lonie - looks lost this year
Dunstan

In: Fisher
Minchington

You can't be serious replacing Dunstan with Minchington.
Minchington did very little when he was in the side and Dunstan has been one of our best perforners this year.

[Bluthy]

This is a line in the sand moment at selection this week. What do we stand for as a club - are we stuck in the past or future orientated? ARe we going to keep filling a third of our team with the guys from the losing grand final teams? Or will we be bold and adventurous with selection they way they want the team to play.

This is a weak oppo this week. You can play it safe and fill it up with rock solid oldies who will do a job and we get the four points and Richo trots out we are on track but it will be the oldies getting it done mostly. Or you say this is a great opportunity to blood some more youth against similar young oppo and see if they have the hunger and passion to win.

We are a third of the way through the season already and we have so many guys we need to test out at the highest level - Paddy, Goddard, Lee, Murodoch, Dmac, White, Rice, Murdoch, Wright, Eli, Minch, Pierce, Longer, Holmes, Curren, Shenton, Saunders. How can you justify filling it up with a ridiculous amount of oldies, particularly on the backline? No other rebuilding team has that amount of oldies - its ridiculously conservative and not setting us up for the future

Show some balls - show some courage and stop blaming the players for your selection conservatism. Back the future instead of empty words. We can't live in the past. We are a third of the way through the season and there are tonnes of players who haven't even got 1 game in the seniors yet, let alone giving some guys a solid run at it to assess them. Do you know if we should keep Murdoch on our list next year? I wouldn't have a clue because he doesn't get a go at it. What about Wright, Shenton? Who the frick knows? Maybe if they had given Spence White a bit more of a crack he could have pulled something out of the bag. Probably unlikely but we'll never know. He did kick a couple against tigers in one of his rare seniors game (was that his only one?)

I would honestly rather blood more youngies this week and lose than play our normal oldies and win by 40 points. This weeks selection will show how much courage Richo and the selectors have and if they genuinely believe in the players on the list. Enough i.s enough of living in the past. Youth brings energy and freshness and boldness. It might even, heaven help me, bring some good kicking. Who knows. Crazier things have happened.

You've got to energise the supporter base by being future looking, not cowardly and safe at selection every single week. What standards were set last week? Give us something to go to the footy this week to feel passionate about and see the future on the field even if they lose. Wins are NOT the be all and end all this year. They are simply not. Or are they for your jobs? I certainly hope not or we are screwed.

[drops mic and walks off]

[mad saint guy]

It's hard to single out particular player who deserved to be dropped after such a shocking performance from the team as a whole. Very few players can hold their heads up after Sunday's effort and a few who look to be in line for demotion from the stats sheet (Sinclair, Membrey, Acres) have all shown plenty in recent weeks. I think Lonie has to go back to Sandy and string a month of good footy together though. It would be great to see Pierce get a crack and for Lee's VFL form to be rewarded but I don't see it happening. McKenzie seems a good chance to play but I'm not sure who comes out.

My guess

Out: Lonie, Acres
In: Fisher, McKenzie

If we have any players struggling with niggles then I'd like to see McCartin or Pierce included as well. Hoping they don't waste time by playing Shenton or Curren, who are very good VFL players but are clearly not up to it at AFL level.

[Saint wagga]

Well apparently richo didn't see that peformance coming...i reckon plenty on here did...we'd done very well stringing a bunch of good performances together with our young side, but our close losses really hurt the playing group, combined with WCE coming off a loss that saw them cop a huge whack from the press and the ingredients were there for a mauling...hindisght yes, but i think plenty of people probably tipped this as week we went off the boil...

Given that, RIcho could be ruthless at selection or pull out the old line of giving the players a chance to rectify their performance. FWIW

IN: Templeton, Murdoch, FIsher
Out: Lonie, Webster, Sinclair

[saintbob]

Out: Lonie - looks lost this year
Dunstan

In: Fisher
Minchington

You can't be serious replacing Dunstan with Minchington.
Minchington did very little when he was in the side and Dunstan has been one of our best perforners this year.

"One of our best this year " , you've got to be kidding!!!

[spert]

The WCE game was lost from the first bounce in the midfield in the first quarter. Like the previous week, the midfield got smacked early. I just don't think you can reward non-performances like that and a couple need to be dropped if AR is on about "non-negotiables". Luck we don't have much midfield stock coming through, as a few of those in there need to get a wake-up call with a couple of games in the VFL

[bigballs]

Out: Hickey (rested)
Roberton
Membrey
Lonie

In: Pierce
Fisher
McCartin
Murdoch

[Devilhead]

No changes

Make them redeem themselves and win back the percentage points that they lost





and then drop them

[bigcarl]

I hope Acres doesn't get the chop but I fear he might. He has a ton of talent and the ability to impact matches, as we saw against Melbourne.

The kid needs confidence and to feel he belongs at this level. Then we should have a player. Let's face it a lot of his more experienced teammates didn't exactly set the world on fire.