Saints swarm (prospectus)

[Goose is king]

Looking through the 2016 prospectus today and here are the Saints facts I found interesting or surprising

First of all Richo is the coach quoted on the front cover citing " In an environment where every 1% matters, champion data provides us with the crucial information that allows us to view the game in a manner that previously wasn't possible".
So if you think stats-smats take it up with Richo.

Saints swarm: "the saints recorded the fourth best pressure differential of any side in 2015. They won the pressure differential in each of their six wins by an average of +0.17 per match the best differential of any club. Hawthorn had the second best in differential in wins at +0.15. When the opposition had the ball, Saints swarmed and it made for exciting footy to watch"

Slow and wide: this section basically says what we already know. We play safe and slow out of defense and it stops our ability to score. "The saints took 86 uncontested marks per match, the second most behind only Hawthorn" difference is they move the ball forward fast and we are painfully slow. This should be a main focus for us

Players

Bruce: ordinary players don't bag four bags of five or more at age 23. His 50 goals ranked eighth in the league and second amongst key forwards under 25. What a find. His strong contested marking inside 50 stood out as he took 28 for the season, ranked equal second in the AFL.

Carlisle: when moved to defense last year from round 18 he grabbed the equal second most intercept marks in that time.
When he plays next year. We will be glad we have him

Delaney: a few things surprised me. First I did think he played 11 AFL games. Anyway "he proved to be a reliable one on one defender, being out marked just once in 53 defensive one on one contests ranked No 1 of the 112 players to be involved in atleast 20 defensive one on ones" WOW. Not as surprising his disposal stinks

Dempster: shouldn't be a surprise but he was 4th in the comp for intercept marks per game

Fisher: unlike Delany, Fisher "recorded the eighth worst losing percentage of the top 50 one on one defenders.....recording the third best kicking rating of any key defenders

Geary: recorded " a kick rating of +3.2% rated above average for a general defender" WTF. I guess they don't read this site.

Goddard: "debuted in round 16 ranking No 1 at the club and equal 17th in the AFL for intercept possessions in that time. Out of the players under 20 years of age, his 6.1 intercepts per game ranked No 1.
He and Carlisle will be great together from 2017 onwards

Montagna: "512 meters gained per game-second in the competition" was underrated by many last year

Newnes: "elite intercept possessions numbers....St Kilda scored from 32% of these intercepts ranked No 1 of the top 100 intercept winners

Rice: "his kicking stood out, recording the second best kicking efficiency of the top 50 ball winners in the competition. He again showed his foot skills at the NAB AFL under 18 championships, recording an average kick rating of +8.3%

Riewolt: apparently he can play

[skeptic]

Fisher: unlike Delany, Fisher "recorded the eighth worst losing percentage of the top 50 one on one defenders.....recording the third best kicking rating of any key defender

Great post

That in particular is of no surprise. Fisher is and has been for a long time a lousy key position back, and we do both him and the backline a disservice using him that way. He's more actually always been more of a tall running defender/play maker who is suited to the 3rd man up role. Having lost a bit of run over the last few years, he's not as good at this as he used to be (but he's well past his prime and given he was so good, you couldn't expect him to be) so these IMO he is at best a 3rd tall.

To me, this is why Delaney needs to be in the team.

Prior to the Carlisle suspension, people were sturcturing our backs something like this

B Geary, Fisher, Webster
HB Roberton, Carlisle, Gilbert

That's not enough in terms of actually stopping key forwards. It was never Delaney vs Fisher, he should be more in contest with someone like Gilbert or Roberton as the running man that can go 3rd man up.

He's very highly rated here but me personally, I struggle to see what the best way to fit him in is. I don't reckon he's good enough in the contest to play key back nor damaging enough anymore to be a runner/link player

[Goose is king]

I think Goddard has to play as much as possible too given his impressive intercepting.

[ROLS-LEE]

I thing that fisher could be that 3rd tall he may be missing as I can not find a spot for him down back. Can mark. Can kick a goal. All depends on speed and spread. I actually hope that all the young up and comers actually take over and keep him out of the side.

[saintspremiers]

Goddard Sian absolute gun in the making. I can't believe how composed he is as a kid. Quite incredible.

[Bluthy]

This was really interesting. Is there a link to the prospectus Goose? I searched but couldn't find it

Saints swarm, I like it. Our forward press was outstanding. The only way to stop teams like the Hawks is to stop their run out of the back our else they just slice and dice you when they rebound. But the last couple of games when I think the players got ahead of themselves a bit (and had an eye on their holidays) and dropped the pressure shows how much we rely on preventing the oppo playing their game rather than our own game being a powerhouse and being able to go toe to toe.

Getting guys like Rice, White, McKenzie and encouraging Webster, Savage, Roberton to really take the game on from the back is obviously our plan to get our backline more dymanic with more penetrating kicking. We've had to focus on doing more of a shutdown job on our backline with the ball coming in a lot and not having big guys to deal with it. We sacrificed that penetrating rebound. Geary used to run out of the back but now spends his time doing cover defence mainly.

Theses stats make a case for Delaney and I think he will get a go this year with Jake out. But along with his average disposal, I don't remember him taking a lot of marks. Its ok to fist the ball away but the ball is still in our back 50 and you are under pressure. Great backline marking like EAston-Wood for dogs is a huge weapon to turn being on you heels into an attack and almost required for key backmen these days. Tom Lee should get games this year and has that marking and good kicking potential. Whether he's good enough at ground level and enough footy smarts to deal with wiley forwards is the question.

Carlisle and Goddard have the size and skill to be good intercept markers which is exciting to turn defence into attack. The flip side is how good will they be when the ball hits the deck? They seem ok. Clarkson's philosophy is that footy is mainly played on the ground and doesn't mind playing an undersized defence.

With Gearys kicking rate, if he kicks it to a 50-50 which I think he does a fair bit, does that count against him, or for him? He also takes very safe options because he can't kick it flat to penetrate heavy traffic so that would bump up his stats.

Joey is under-rated. He gives great run, fights damn hard for inside footy, often has a player up his clacker all game as the oppo know how important he is to fire up the team. You can often see him get angry at the oppo attention and getting battered around. He's probably our most versatile player able to go inside or outside, is damaging on the wing, can kick long to clear traffic. Lost a bit of pace with age but still valuable. A great role model for Steven.

Newnes is an interesting one. I like his hard running and he takes some good marks. I just want to see him be more damaging with the footy - although those stats suggest maybe he is. I'll watch him carefully this year.

[Goose is king]

No link that I know of Bluthy. I think you can buy it on-line or purchase the book

[Dis Believer]

This was really interesting. Is there a link to the prospectus Goose? I searched but couldn't find it

Saints swarm, I like it. Our forward press was outstanding. The only way to stop teams like the Hawks is to stop their run out of the back our else they just slice and dice you when they rebound. But the last couple of games when I think the players got ahead of themselves a bit (and had an eye on their holidays) and dropped the pressure shows how much we rely on preventing the oppo playing their game rather than our own game being a powerhouse and being able to go toe to toe.

Getting guys like Rice, White, McKenzie and encouraging Webster, Savage, Roberton to really take the game on from the back is obviously our plan to get our backline more dymanic with more penetrating kicking. We've had to focus on doing more of a shutdown job on our backline with the ball coming in a lot and not having big guys to deal with it. We sacrificed that penetrating rebound. Geary used to run out of the back but now spends his time doing cover defence mainly.

Theses stats make a case for Delaney and I think he will get a go this year with Jake out. But along with his average disposal, I don't remember him taking a lot of marks. Its ok to fist the ball away but the ball is still in our back 50 and you are under pressure. Great backline marking like EAston-Wood for dogs is a huge weapon to turn being on you heels into an attack and almost required for key backmen these days. Tom Lee should get games this year and has that marking and good kicking potential. Whether he's good enough at ground level and enough footy smarts to deal with wiley forwards is the question.

Carlisle and Goddard have the size and skill to be good intercept markers which is exciting to turn defence into attack. The flip side is how good will they be when the ball hits the deck? They seem ok. Clarkson's philosophy is that footy is mainly played on the ground and doesn't mind playing an undersized defence.

With Gearys kicking rate, if he kicks it to a 50-50 which I think he does a fair bit, does that count against him, or for him? He also takes very safe options because he can't kick it flat to penetrate heavy traffic so that would bump up his stats.

Joey is under-rated. He gives great run, fights damn hard for inside footy, often has a player up his clacker all game as the oppo know how important he is to fire up the team. You can often see him get angry at the oppo attention and getting battered around. He's probably our most versatile player able to go inside or outside, is damaging on the wing, can kick long to clear traffic. Lost a bit of pace with age but still valuable. A great role model for Steven.

Newnes is an interesting one. I like his hard running and he takes some good marks. I just want to see him be more damaging with the footy - although those stats suggest maybe he is. I'll watch him carefully this year.

Agree with much of this, and think Tom Lee is interesting - to me is a replacement for Fisher. With Goddard and Carlisile (next year) in the back half, you add Lee and have oll the marking power you need. Roberton then gets pushed up to the wing and with his more running based game (in spite of his height) becomes more offensive than defensive. Lee's kicking is elite and that seems to be (thankfully) a facet that we are paying particular attention to in our rebuilding..........

[ripplug66]

This was really interesting. Is there a link to the prospectus Goose? I searched but couldn't find it

Saints swarm, I like it. Our forward press was outstanding. The only way to stop teams like the Hawks is to stop their run out of the back our else they just slice and dice you when they rebound. But the last couple of games when I think the players got ahead of themselves a bit (and had an eye on their holidays) and dropped the pressure shows how much we rely on preventing the oppo playing their game rather than our own game being a powerhouse and being able to go toe to toe.

Getting guys like Rice, White, McKenzie and encouraging Webster, Savage, Roberton to really take the game on from the back is obviously our plan to get our backline more dymanic with more penetrating kicking. We've had to focus on doing more of a shutdown job on our backline with the ball coming in a lot and not having big guys to deal with it. We sacrificed that penetrating rebound. Geary used to run out of the back but now spends his time doing cover defence mainly.

Theses stats make a case for Delaney and I think he will get a go this year with Jake out. But along with his average disposal, I don't remember him taking a lot of marks. Its ok to fist the ball away but the ball is still in our back 50 and you are under pressure. Great backline marking like EAston-Wood for dogs is a huge weapon to turn being on you heels into an attack and almost required for key backmen these days. Tom Lee should get games this year and has that marking and good kicking potential. Whether he's good enough at ground level and enough footy smarts to deal with wiley forwards is the question.

Carlisle and Goddard have the size and skill to be good intercept markers which is exciting to turn defence into attack. The flip side is how good will they be when the ball hits the deck? They seem ok. Clarkson's philosophy is that footy is mainly played on the ground and doesn't mind playing an undersized defence.

With Gearys kicking rate, if he kicks it to a 50-50 which I think he does a fair bit, does that count against him, or for him? He also takes very safe options because he can't kick it flat to penetrate heavy traffic so that would bump up his stats.

Joey is under-rated. He gives great run, fights damn hard for inside footy, often has a player up his clacker all game as the oppo know how important he is to fire up the team. You can often see him get angry at the oppo attention and getting battered around. He's probably our most versatile player able to go inside or outside, is damaging on the wing, can kick long to clear traffic. Lost a bit of pace with age but still valuable. A great role model for Steven.

Newnes is an interesting one. I like his hard running and he takes some good marks. I just want to see him be more damaging with the footy - although those stats suggest maybe he is. I'll watch him carefully this year.

Agree with much of this, and think Tom Lee is interesting - to me is a replacement for Fisher. With Goddard and Carlisile (next year) in the back half, you add Lee and have oll the marking power you need. Roberton then gets pushed up to the wing and with his more running based game (in spite of his height) becomes more offensive than defensive. Lee's kicking is elite and that seems to be (thankfully) a facet that we are paying particular attention to in our rebuilding..........

I have to say I have heard some pretty poor things about Lee lately. Disappointing if true and it comes from an excellent source. Hope he proves the stories wrong.

[Sobraz]

This was really interesting. Is there a link to the prospectus Goose? I searched but couldn't find it

Saints swarm, I like it. Our forward press was outstanding. The only way to stop teams like the Hawks is to stop their run out of the back our else they just slice and dice you when they rebound. But the last couple of games when I think the players got ahead of themselves a bit (and had an eye on their holidays) and dropped the pressure shows how much we rely on preventing the oppo playing their game rather than our own game being a powerhouse and being able to go toe to toe.

Getting guys like Rice, White, McKenzie and encouraging Webster, Savage, Roberton to really take the game on from the back is obviously our plan to get our backline more dymanic with more penetrating kicking. We've had to focus on doing more of a shutdown job on our backline with the ball coming in a lot and not having big guys to deal with it. We sacrificed that penetrating rebound. Geary used to run out of the back but now spends his time doing cover defence mainly.

Theses stats make a case for Delaney and I think he will get a go this year with Jake out. But along with his average disposal, I don't remember him taking a lot of marks. Its ok to fist the ball away but the ball is still in our back 50 and you are under pressure. Great backline marking like EAston-Wood for dogs is a huge weapon to turn being on you heels into an attack and almost required for key backmen these days. Tom Lee should get games this year and has that marking and good kicking potential. Whether he's good enough at ground level and enough footy smarts to deal with wiley forwards is the question.

Carlisle and Goddard have the size and skill to be good intercept markers which is exciting to turn defence into attack. The flip side is how good will they be when the ball hits the deck? They seem ok. Clarkson's philosophy is that footy is mainly played on the ground and doesn't mind playing an undersized defence.

With Gearys kicking rate, if he kicks it to a 50-50 which I think he does a fair bit, does that count against him, or for him? He also takes very safe options because he can't kick it flat to penetrate heavy traffic so that would bump up his stats.

Joey is under-rated. He gives great run, fights damn hard for inside footy, often has a player up his clacker all game as the oppo know how important he is to fire up the team. You can often see him get angry at the oppo attention and getting battered around. He's probably our most versatile player able to go inside or outside, is damaging on the wing, can kick long to clear traffic. Lost a bit of pace with age but still valuable. A great role model for Steven.

Newnes is an interesting one. I like his hard running and he takes some good marks. I just want to see him be more damaging with the footy - although those stats suggest maybe he is. I'll watch him carefully this year.

Agree with much of this, and think Tom Lee is interesting - to me is a replacement for Fisher. With Goddard and Carlisile (next year) in the back half, you add Lee and have oll the marking power you need. Roberton then gets pushed up to the wing and with his more running based game (in spite of his height) becomes more offensive than defensive. Lee's kicking is elite and that seems to be (thankfully) a facet that we are paying particular attention to in our rebuilding..........

I have to say I have heard some pretty poor things about Lee lately. Disappointing if true and it comes from an excellent source. Hope he proves the stories wrong.

Going to request a bite of that carrot you've dangled RP66.. Any chance you can go into detail?

[ripplug66]

Going to request a bite of that carrot you've dangled RP66.. Any chance you can go into detail?

Just attitude. Pissed off about last season and basically just going through the motions of his contract.

[Playon]

Going to request a bite of that carrot you've dangled RP66.. Any chance you can go into detail?

Just attitude. Pissed off about last season and basically just going through the motions of his contract.

Heard he will be traded next year, back to WA, might be the end of his AFL career if attitude is the problem.
He doesn't have any trade value, but will open a spot on the list. Pretty sure he's gone

[Bluthy]

Going to request a bite of that carrot you've dangled RP66.. Any chance you can go into detail?

Just attitude. Pissed off about last season and basically just going through the motions of his contract.

Sure, that makes sense So despite putting in all the hard yards to be an AFL football player so far with all the sacrifices that entails, now suddenly Lee is not going to try and maximise his chances of staying on the St Kilda list, and the lucrative benefits of that, a team ready to launch for final glory, with lots of backline spots opening up with Dempster, Fisher and Gilbo all heading towards retirement and still even forward spots available if he's determined enough. He's now going to half-ass it and endanger any chance of going somewhere else as footy people talk and a guy who can't crack a bottom club with tonnes of young players is going to struggle anywhere else. And Richo has said:

“Tom Lee, we played in the VFL in the back end of the year as a defender given it wasn’t quite working for him up front – McCartin coming in, Josh Bruce playing the way he played.
“So that’s going to be exciting – he’ll get those opportunities and we’ll see if he can step up to the other level because he was really promising in the VFL

If he's not good enough or doesn't have the tank for AFL, then so be it. But thats total BS on "going through the motions". The same was said about White and it made no sense either.

I laugh at the way you constantly scream PROOF, PROOF, PROOF at everyone when something they bring up they've heard doesn't suit your argument but you are happy to use grapevine rumours yourself. You're a hypocrite. Personally I don't mind these tidbits alleged from "insiders". Like I've said before, this place is the equivalent of down the pub and its fun to chuck out stuff we've heard on the grapevine. I take it all with a grain of salt and put the jigsaw pieces together in my own way. But I find your double standard hilarious.

[ripplug66]

Going to request a bite of that carrot you've dangled RP66.. Any chance you can go into detail?

Just attitude. Pissed off about last season and basically just going through the motions of his contract.

Sure, that makes sense So despite putting in all the hard yards to be an AFL football player so far with all the sacrifices that entails, now suddenly Lee is not going to try and maximise his chances of staying on the St Kilda list, and the lucrative benefits of that, a team ready to launch for final glory, with lots of backline spots opening up with Dempster, Fisher and Gilbo all heading towards retirement and still even forward spots available if he's determined enough. He's now going to half-ass it and endanger any chance of going somewhere else as footy people talk and a guy who can't crack a bottom club with tonnes of young players is going to struggle anywhere else. And Richo has said:

“Tom Lee, we played in the VFL in the back end of the year as a defender given it wasn’t quite working for him up front – McCartin coming in, Josh Bruce playing the way he played.
“So that’s going to be exciting – he’ll get those opportunities and we’ll see if he can step up to the other level because he was really promising in the VFL

If he's not good enough or doesn't have the tank for AFL, then so be it. But thats total BS on "going through the motions". The same was said about White and it made no sense either.

I laugh at the way you constantly scream PROOF, PROOF, PROOF at everyone when something they bring up they've heard doesn't suit your argument but you are happy to use grapevine rumours yourself. You're a hypocrite. Personally I don't mind these tidbits alleged from "insiders". Like I've said before, this place is the equivalent of down the pub and its fun to chuck out stuff we've heard on the grapevine. I take it all with a grain of salt and put the jigsaw pieces together in my own way. But I find your double standard hilarious.

I have very good proof and that is why I said it. I don't make up stuff like that. Luckily I don't need your permission to say it. PM me if you want the 100% reason why I know. My rumour isn't from down the pub. And I'm not an insider at all. I know 2 people at the club and I can assure you if they told me something it wouldn't be mentioned on here. They wouldn't tell me anything anyway. It comes from someone much closer than a work associate. The work associates probably don't even know. I'm sure he trains like most others. Training is part of it. Bluthy I would actually be upset if you believed me. I certainly know why you are a little upset. You mentioned Lee and we know once you mention something what that leads too.

[Bluthy]

I have very good proof and that is why I said it. I don't make up stuff like that. Luckily I don't need your permission to say it. PM me if you want the 100% reason why I know. My rumour isn't from down the pub. And I'm not an insider at all. I know 2 people at the club and I can assure you if they told me something it wouldn't be mentioned on here. They wouldn't tell me anything anyway. It comes from someone much closer than a work associate. The work associates probably don't even know. I'm sure he trains like most others. Training is part of it. Bluthy I would actually be upset if you believed me. I certainly know why you are a little upset. You mentioned Lee and we know once you mention something what that leads too.

You can be very cryptic plugger. I'm saying don't screech "proof" at people doing exactly what you've done here - saying something they've heard because they think its an illuminating tidbit. We all want to get some insight into what's really happening inside the club rather than the boring official line but you have to take it all with huge grains of salt. Your rumour about Lee doesn't stand up to logic to me.

[ripplug66]

I have very good proof and that is why I said it. I don't make up stuff like that. Luckily I don't need your permission to say it. PM me if you want the 100% reason why I know. My rumour isn't from down the pub. And I'm not an insider at all. I know 2 people at the club and I can assure you if they told me something it wouldn't be mentioned on here. They wouldn't tell me anything anyway. It comes from someone much closer than a work associate. The work associates probably don't even know. I'm sure he trains like most others. Training is part of it. Bluthy I would actually be upset if you believed me. I certainly know why you are a little upset. You mentioned Lee and we know once you mention something what that leads too.

You can be very cryptic plugger. I'm saying don't screech "proof" at people doing exactly what you've done here - saying something they've heard because they think its an illuminating tidbit. We all want to get some insight into what's really happening inside the club rather than the boring official line but you have to take it all with huge grains of salt. Your rumour about Lee doesn't stand up to logic to me.

I will screech proof if I feel like it but again thanks for the advise. And the rumour fact as far as I know. Still waiting for the PM or would rather keep it going here and boring people yo death.