Rod and reality - Butters interview

[evertonfc]

Five years without a drink. Wow. Some effort, that.

Was a one-man comedy show for a while. Saw him do some really silly things.

Clearly a hugely talented man with a capacity for greatness and self-destruction in equal measure.

And his resemblance to Hank Scorpio, in looks and actions, was uncanny. Here he is firing Grant Thomas in September 2006.

[spert]

I guess a few Sainters didn't enjoy the great football the club played back when Butters and GT got it happening for a while, anyway that was then and this is now.

Success is measured by premerships

Ultimately yes, but RB and GT did their bit briefly for the club, and we were privileged to see some great winning footy for a while, and it gave everyone renewed pride in the club.

[Scollop]

Wasn't that where the fallout began?.

Butterss' off-field antics and his resultant marriage issues, divided GT and him due to the relationship GT and his missus had with Butterss' wife?

There were also concerns expressed in relation to that type of lifestyle going on the presence of impressionable young men.

That's what I was told at the time.

The politics between coach and president cost us. Momentum lost!! Everyone knew at that time that we'd have to take some steps backwards. I couldn't bloody believe that some/most were willing to accept that. Who's best interests was Butters thinking of; The players? The sponsors/the supporters? The club in general?

Back in the 04-06 period I had a feeling that the list was going to win St Kilda's next premiership but what I saw was my team take 3 steps backwards when Butters sacked GT and we'll never know what might have been. If Kennett and some power hungry directoirs at Hawthorn had their way, maybe Clarko would have never been given the opportunity. We lost momentum and we stuffed up.

Every coach will tell you that if you haven't got the cattle, it doesn't matter how good you are as a coach. We had the cattle!! Problem is - so did other teams around us and they overtook us.

...and before this turns into a $hitfest about GT the coach versus RL or anyone else, my point is that the core group was good enough to win a premeirship... but we didn't!!

When GT took over as coach he became a second father to a lot of our emerging leaders and he galvanised the playing list. I saw a leader who got a core group of high draft picks believing that they were going to write their own history. I felt that with the right coaching structure and the right group of assistants behind GT the ultimate success was enivetible.

If Geelong had sacked Mark Thompson in 2006, who here thinks Geelong would've won a premiership in 2007?

[saintsRrising]

That completely ignores that Bomber while not liking the changes being forced on him by the Geelong Board accepted and then embraced them. Whereas GT refused to accept changes wanted by the StKilda Board. GT had become a meglomaniac and it was time to go. Indeed the mistake was not sacking hom 12 months earlier.

The post also ignores that by the time of his sacking that there was a long list of people who GT was not able to work with. It was not just RB vs GT.

[saynta]

Sorry SR there is more than a bit of truth in what scollop is saying. I have never gotten over the Thomas sacking,

The fact that a drug addled drunk pulled the trigger only adds to my angst.

[ripplug66]

Sorry SR there is more than a bit of truth in what scvollop is saying. I have never gotten over the Thomas sacking,

The fact that a drug addled drunk pulled the trigger only adds to my angst.

Unfortunately had to go in todays footy. Great people manager but tactics wasn't his strength . Wouldn't survive now.

[saintsRrising]

Sorry SR there is more than a bit of truth in what scollop is saying. I have never gotten over the Thomas sacking,

The fact that a drug addled drunk pulled the trigger only adds to my angst.

I agree with Ripplug66

GT was a one track pony when it games to gameplan. Once the other coaches worked it out (and the gameplan was Rendell's), it was all over red rover. The Streak was struck down.

Coincidently this was at the same time as GT rather than train took all the players to watch 'The Day After Tomorrow". End of the World indeed.

I do agree with Scollop though that GT had a great list to work with. Saint's were lucky to finish low in the ear of priority picks, lucked in to benefit from the Blues being penalised for cheating and Hamill falling out with Elliot. However the Saints showed great skill in securing a range of other talented players from other clubs and had several seasons of really good drafting of talent relative to where the picks were (before the Great Decline in drafting the right kids set in).

GT's track record was disharmony wherever he worked.

He and RB did a great job at the Saints early on. But let's be honest here. GT never deserved to coach the Saints and only got the job in an underhand way via a sham process that he was content to lie about till after the dust up with RB when it all came out. Which made GT's assertion that he would later setep aside if a better coach came along hollow words indeed.

[saintsRrising]

Back on RB. Who was worse? RB or GW?

RB at least had a period of being very good for the Saints.

With GW it was just all downhill despite his "huff and puff" and moralising.

[Saints43]

But let's be honest here. GT never deserved to coach the Saints and only got the job in an underhand way via a sham process that he was content to lie about till after the dust up with RB when it all came out.

The whole RB & GT plan to resurrect the Saints was that GT became coach.

No career coach was going to take what was going to take a job where the brief was to clear out the middle rung of GOPs and play kids instead. Remember that this was the first time it had ever been done. I reckon RB & GT were the first admin to work out how to plan long-term in the draft era (although they didn't allocate the necessary funding to establish a scouting network).

It seems passé now that a coach would take a job knowing that they would lose games for a few years for the sake of the longterm but not so in 2001. It had to be GT.

How long it had to be GT is a different matter.

[saintsRrising]

The whole RB & GT plan to resurrect the Saints was that GT became coach.

.

Well that must be their Plan Mark II then, as Plan Mark I was to hire Malcolm Blight as coach.

At the time of MB's dismissal RB stated:

"Over the past two or three months we have concluded that Malcolm's essentially autonomous style simply does not fit with the direction we believe this Club must pursue."

...which is quite ironic given what GT ended up being, and was a big reason for his dismissal as well.


However to be fair on GT his early years were excellent....but like MB, and more recently MM, GT simply latter lost the plot.

[Con Gorozidis]

While I did enjoy the RB-GT period as a fan because we played such exciting footy for a while there - it does seem a bit unprofessional when compared to clubs nowadays.

GT started well but then became deluded that he was some kind of cult/spriritual leader. This delusion grew to the point in the end where the whole thing was just a bit weird and unprofessional. He had way too much power. The comparison with Bomber in 06 made by SR is a good one. If GT had conceded that he wasnt all knowing and put his ego aside - we could have gone with more of a coaching committee style where line coaches get more authority. Looking at Clarkson from the outside it seems like he gives his line coaches and assistants a fair bit of autonomy. He doesnt just lord it over them. Bomber probably didnt like giving up his total authority either but he realised that was the way footy was going - and just got on with it. Maybe if GT had done the same thing - wed have won that flag.

As for Butters - well he came in all guns blazing but he too seemed to get carried away drinking his own bathwater and was sucked into chasing skirt and doing blow. The skirt and the blow have ruined much greater men than RB so there was no way he was going to last that long at that game before it came crashing down.

[ripplug66]

While I did enjoy the RB-GT period as a fan because we played such exciting footy for a while there - it does seem a bit unprofessional when compared to clubs nowadays.

GT started well but then became deluded that he was some kind of cult/spriritual leader. This delusion grew to the point in the end where the whole thing was just a bit weird and unprofessional. He had way too much power. The comparison with Bomber in 06 made by SR is a good one. If GT had conceded that he wasnt all knowing and put his ego aside - we could have gone with more of a coaching committee style where line coaches get more authority. Looking at Clarkson from the outside it seems like he gives his line coaches and assistants a fair bit of autonomy. He doesnt just lord it over them. Bomber probably didnt like giving up his total authority either but he realised that was the way footy was going - and just got on with it. Maybe if GT had done the same thing - wed have won that flag.

As for Butters - well he came in all guns blazing but he too seemed to get carried away drinking his own bathwater and was sucked into chasing skirt and doing blow. The skirt and the blow have ruined much greater men than RB so there was no way he was going to last that long at that game before it came crashing down.

I think this is where we get it wrong about GT. It wasn't up to him to concede on his power, it was up to the board to tell him he had to much power if that was how they felt. maybe they didn't think he had to much power or maybe they were so weak they didn't tell him. Either way that was the issue and not GT. Same with what he earnt. people say he got to much money but he didn't pay himself. Again he either got what the board thought he deserved or the board paid him to much. Anyway like Con says that era wasn't as professional to now but that goes for just about every club. In hindsight thought the side of that era should have won at least one flag. It was our best depth side of any sides the club have probably ever had. Certainly much better than 2009 and 10 sides and probably better than 66.

[Dave McNamara]

If any one of Hamil or Pennys' knees, or X's body, had held up, that would have gotten us over the line to at least two flags IMHO.

Tactics... against good teams that employed flooding were infuriating. I remember GT posting on here that that had been identified and would be addressed. I guess we'll never know now...

The other problem was our maxed-out salary cap... especially considering that our major opponents of the day didn't have that issue. The salary cap issue also helped stymie Ro$$y's campaigns.

[Dave McNamara]

I noted from SS's correspondent at the Saint's AGM (many thanks for the great report Enrico ) that our return to Linton Street was described as a game changer.

Our leaving Linton Street was also a 'game changer'.

Our leaving Linton Street was IMHO the greatest travesty in our club's wacky but wonderful history. Forget Flippsy Floppsy Fluesie. The blame falls upon the relevant members of our club's administration of the day.

And I shall never forget... nor forgive!!!

[Saints43]

Well that must be their Plan Mark II then, as Plan Mark I was to hire Malcolm Blight as coach.

Definitely. I can only imagine their horror when they realised that MB wasn't working out. The financial investment, supporter excitement, positive media coverage.... all about to flushed to make what must rate as one of the bravest, riskiest decisions in the clubs history. And that they formulated a new direction in that short time. A direction modelled successfully by other clubs. I admire them so much for taking that on.

[Scollop]

That completely ignores that Bomber while not liking the changes being forced on him by the Geelong Board accepted and then embraced them. Whereas GT refused to accept changes wanted by the StKilda Board.

Really? C’mon…what choice did Bomber have? What choice would GT have had if there was changes...coaches are employees ffs.

The BOD at the Saints had no alternative because they thought the megalomaniac would not accept the changes. Is that the logic? So…was GT given an ultimatum like Bomber was? If there were changes wanted by the bod at Saints and he refused, why didn't GT just resign? He was sacked wasn't he.. or is the story going to change over time

IIRC GT was sacked because the club said basically at that time he wasn't good enough to coach (and the media wrote and the party line went something like the Saints board thought he wasn't good enough to win a flag).

This thread is titled 'Rod and reality'....Reality is RB took GT to court within 6 mths of sacking him.

I know everyone has a use by date, but I would have liked to have seen GT get 2 extra years with or without a new coaching structure.

[ausfatcat]

The only problem I have with the sacking of GT was it didn't happen a season or two earlier, that's what cost us a premiership, same game plan every season, almost a yearly turn around of the majority assistant coaches and fitness staff we were never going to win a premiership under GT.


edit: I thought GT did a good job from 2001 to 2004, but I also remember his time in Warnambool

[saintsRrising]

Well that must be their Plan Mark II then, as Plan Mark I was to hire Malcolm Blight as coach.

Definitely. I can only imagine their horror when they realised that MB wasn't working out. The financial investment, supporter excitement, positive media coverage.... all about to flushed to make what must rate as one of the bravest, riskiest decisions in the clubs history. And that they formulated a new direction in that short time. A direction modelled successfully by other clubs. I admire them so much for taking that on.

Fully agree...their early years were a great credit to them both plus others like MK. Some people never achieve anything and turning the Saints around from the basket case that they were previously was a great achievement.

Gaining MB did have a lasting positive benefit too in that it assisted in attracting good players to the club.

[Linton Lodger]

When all is said and done, I think we owe Butters a fair amount of gratitude as I reckon he saved our Club, then got it standing up with its chest out. Grant Thomas had a part in that as well.

[Con Gorozidis]

Luke Penny. I forgot about him. Thanks for the reminder Dave. Absolute gun player no doubts. Definitely elite. Top 5 at the club easy. Would have made a big difference for us. Was a huge blow losing him.

[Locals322]

Rather be sniffing Rod's ass and relevant than in perpetual rebuild upon rebuild.

[saintsRrising]

If any one of Hamil or Pennys' knees, or X's body, had held up, that would have gotten us over the line to at least two flags IMHO.

Tactics... against good teams that employed flooding were infuriating. I remember GT posting on here that that had been identified and would be addressed. I guess we'll never know now...

The other problem was our maxed-out salary cap... especially considering that our major opponents of the day didn't have that issue. The salary cap issue also helped stymie Ro$$y's campaigns.

The main era of flooding was yet to come, and more so that it was yet to be combined with extreme forward pressure. So I doubt that GT had the answers to what had yet to really happen.


As for contracts, we know who was setting them then. Ball was overpaid for years deliberately, but that failed to gain us any credit later.

[Johnny Member]

Sorry SR there is more than a bit of truth in what scollop is saying. I have never gotten over the Thomas sacking,

The fact that a drug addled drunk pulled the trigger only adds to my angst.

I agree with Ripplug66

GT was a one track pony when it games to gameplan. Once the other coaches worked it out (and the gameplan was Rendell's), it was all over red rover. The Streak was struck down.

Coincidently this was at the same time as GT rather than train took all the players to watch 'The Day After Tomorrow". End of the World indeed.

I do agree with Scollop though that GT had a great list to work with. Saint's were lucky to finish low in the ear of priority picks, lucked in to benefit from the Blues being penalised for cheating and Hamill falling out with Elliot. However the Saints showed great skill in securing a range of other talented players from other clubs and had several seasons of really good drafting of talent relative to where the picks were (before the Great Decline in drafting the right kids set in).

GT's track record was disharmony wherever he worked.

He and RB did a great job at the Saints early on. But let's be honest here. GT never deserved to coach the Saints and only got the job in an underhand way via a sham process that he was content to lie about till after the dust up with RB when it all came out. Which made GT's assertion that he would later setep aside if a better coach came along hollow words indeed.

I put it more down to losing Goose, Sammy, Sam Fisher, Luke Ball, Kosi and Luke Penny for critical and extended periods of time.

[evertonfc]

I put it more down to losing Goose, Sammy, Sam Fisher, Luke Ball, Kosi and Luke Penny for critical and extended periods of time.

This was undoubtedly the biggest issue in 2004 and 2005.

At the time I remember making a mental note to say people we think we screwed it up, but we were missing huge chunks of our best team.

[Darth Vader]

Sorry SR there is more than a bit of truth in what scollop is saying. I have never gotten over the Thomas sacking,

The fact that a drug addled drunk pulled the trigger only adds to my angst.

I agree with Ripplug66

GT was a one track pony when it games to gameplan. Once the other coaches worked it out (and the gameplan was Rendell's), it was all over red rover. The Streak was struck down.

Coincidently this was at the same time as GT rather than train took all the players to watch 'The Day After Tomorrow". End of the World indeed.

I do agree with Scollop though that GT had a great list to work with. Saint's were lucky to finish low in the ear of priority picks, lucked in to benefit from the Blues being penalised for cheating and Hamill falling out with Elliot. However the Saints showed great skill in securing a range of other talented players from other clubs and had several seasons of really good drafting of talent relative to where the picks were (before the Great Decline in drafting the right kids set in).

GT's track record was disharmony wherever he worked.

He and RB did a great job at the Saints early on. But let's be honest here. GT never deserved to coach the Saints and only got the job in an underhand way via a sham process that he was content to lie about till after the dust up with RB when it all came out. Which made GT's assertion that he would later setep aside if a better coach came along hollow words indeed.

I put it more down to losing Goose, Sammy, Sam Fisher, Luke Ball, Kosi and Luke Penny for critical and extended periods of time.

Well we all know what GT thought of "training services". If his attitude influenced how this part of the club was run/funded/supported, maybe he bears some responsibility for the shocking injury run anyway. So we can still blame him.