Clint Jones vs bombers

[bergsone]

Few weeks back I said he would probally play all games this year because of our youth,now not so sure.If he is forced out because of good form of youngsters,that has to be a good thing

[The Redeemer]

This is not a witch-hunt, just want a critical discussion here, no abuse or emotional defenses around trying hard.

Is he playing as a purely attacking mid now? Appeared to be running around on his own most of the night on a wing, was head to head with Stanton mostly and less so Myers.

Stanton had 29 (20 kicks), 9 marks, 3 tackles, 1 clearance and 3 goals (2 of which were late and I don't think Jones was on him)

Jones had 15 (3 kicks), 3 marks, 7 tackles, 1 clearance

I think the fact that we won the match and also won nearly every match-up it's easy to dismiss any negatives. But if Jones was playing as an attacking mid, he was well beaten.

He was very good in the opening 2 games when we were missing Hayes, Montagna, Steven… but now I think that this is 3 poor games in a row. With Weller dominating, he should be rewarded with some senior games. People go on about integrity of selection and not gifting games, but this goes both ways.

His pressure around the ball & tackling is top notch, Clint is working within his limitations and is handballing whenever possible, but is 3 kicks enough for a player who is not tagging on a wing?

We are clearly not short on players that demonstrate the level of effort required, so this shouldn't be a factor when selecting a side.

Is he adding something else that I am not seeing?

Even his handballs after often to stupidly-pressured situations.

[sunsaint]

(Dragit post + clint jones topic -("not a witch hunt)) = massive lie

[saintsRrising]

Dons game was not his best.

But if you average all his games this year he has been good.

Most of his possessions are under hot pressure too...which always affects disposal. ...but yes is why he is not an elite player. Is why I am excited about Billings as his quick give offs under the pump do more damage... as does Schneiders.

CJ hard body helps a lot too. I can see Weller taking over his spot in time.

[dragit]

(Dragit post + clint jones topic -("not a witch hunt)) = massive lie

Have a cry mate...

Maybe you could actually add something to the debate instead having a crack at me.

I've mentioned some things he's done well, I pointed out that 2 of stantons goals were not opposed to clint.

Is discussing the form of fringe players out of bounds?

[stinger]

i think for once all 22 saints players did okay...the jones boy included.....one of the reasons for our win...

[perfectionist]

... I pointed out that 2 of stantons goals were not opposed to clint...

None of them were. The first, in the third quarter, Brent Stanton's opponent was Josh Bruce (I had previously thought it was Jimmy Webster, but the replay proves that wrong). Clint Jones had come through the centre square and only came in to the frame after the kick was taken. The two in the fourth were both on Jimmy Webster, but he was a victim of circumstances in both.

[mad saint guy]

Jones' issue was perfectly highlighted a couple of times against Essendon. One example was when the game was very hot and we needed to slow things down, make good decisions and use the ball well. Essendon were defending aggressively but we held onto the ball with 6-7 good kicks in a row, waiting for an opportune time to attack. Eventually after a whole lot of clean, intelligent footy, Jones ended up with the ball, tried a dinky little 35 hack forwards, turned the ball over and cost us a goal. Another was when we had almost sealed the game, had all the momentum and we were streaming forwards into goal. Jones ends up with the footy, has no idea what to do with it and fumbles something like a handball behind his shoulder, again letting Essendon take possession and kick a goal.

Yes he's chasing and applying pressure, but so are Saunders and Templeton, and they're actually contributing positively with the ball as well. I'd rather find another kid who can both chase and kick a footy rather than persevere with Jones who can just chase. Jones in 2014 is a less skilled, non-goalkicking version of Andrew McQualter 2009-2010.

[dragit]

... I pointed out that 2 of stantons goals were not opposed to clint...

None of them were. The first, in the third quarter, Brent Stanton's opponent was Josh Bruce (I had previously thought it was Jimmy Webster, but the replay proves that wrong). Clint Jones had come through the centre square and only came in to the frame after the kick was taken. The two in the fourth were both on Jimmy Webster, but he was a victim of circumstances in both.

Thanks, point being - I'm not trying to unfairly paint his game as worse than it was... I'm trying to have a genuine discussion here about a player I think is due for a spell not a hanging.

I could be wrong, have no problems with that.

[Choppa]

'Clinton Jones has chalked up seven goal assists this season, ranked second in the AFL': He his obviously doing some things well

[gringo]

'Clinton Jones has chalked up seven goal assists this season, ranked second in the AFL': He his obviously doing some things well

I think he probably in our best 6 players this year easily. If we have to run a new post every time a player has a quiet game it's going to be a long season.

[Milne]

'Clinton Jones has chalked up seven goal assists this season, ranked second in the AFL': He his obviously doing some things well

Exactly.

He stood up and had great games when the more senior guys were out of the team at the start of the season, and has been serviceable in the other games.

[paddy]

He may be there purely as an example of how hard you have to work... He sets the standards for the youngsters to follow.

He is actually a pretty perfect example of what can be accomplished without the polish and composure that the young guys often lack. The message to the young guys can be 'look at CJ, if you work as hard as him and give everything you will get a game and contribute, regardless of mistakes etc.'

If i were a coach (and clearly i am not) i would pull him out front after every game and ask each team member to put their hand if they thought they worked as hard as CJ. And if they didn't put their hand up then they know they need to find some more juice.

anyway, pointless rant over

[ShanghaiSaint]

'Clinton Jones has chalked up seven goal assists this season, ranked second in the AFL': He his obviously doing some things well

Bawahhhhhh drop him kick him out, holding back a young guys spot on the list.

thanks for posting that stat... show's how much we miss as supporters... i had no idea he had done that.

[Bluthy]

He may be there purely as an example of how hard you have to work... He sets the standards for the youngsters to follow.

He is actually a pretty perfect example of what can be accomplished without the polish and composure that the young guys often lack. The message to the young guys can be 'look at CJ, if you work as hard as him and give everything you will get a game and contribute, regardless of mistakes etc.'

If i were a coach (and clearly i am not) i would pull him out front after every game and ask each team member to put their hand if they thought they worked as hard as CJ. And if they didn't put their hand up then they know they need to find some more juice.

anyway, pointless rant over

Well put Paddy. You've turned me around a bit on Jones. Setting a work rate and intensity standard might be the most important thing for this club at the moment - getting that deep into the young players DNA so that its pure habit.

[dragit]

Goal assists is a good stat I hadn't looked at, cheers.

Any idea how many in the last 3 weeks?

I'm not sold on the "trying really hard" argument. We have plenty of those - Hayes, Armitage, Montagna, Riewoldt, Geary, Steven all bust a nut every week... Wright, Saunders, Dunstan aren't short on ticker either.

No doubt Clint will have a better game this week against another bottom 4 side.

[gringo]

Goal assists is a good stat I hadn't looked at, cheers.

Any idea how many in the last 3 weeks?

I'm not sold on the "trying really hard" argument. We have plenty of those - Hayes, Armitage, Montagna, Riewoldt, Geary, Steven all bust a nut every week... Wright, Saunders, Dunstan aren't short on ticker either.

No doubt Clint will have a better game this week against another bottom 4 side.

He has the same lvel of tenacity you have for trying to remove him from the team. Well done you are a great influence on younger posters with lazy attitudes to posting. Many give up after being hit with evidence that contradicts their bias.

[SaintPav]

Jones' issue was perfectly highlighted a couple of times against Essendon. One example was when the game was very hot and we needed to slow things down, make good decisions and use the ball well. Essendon were defending aggressively but we held onto the ball with 6-7 good kicks in a row, waiting for an opportune time to attack. Eventually after a whole lot of clean, intelligent footy, Jones ended up with the ball, tried a dinky little 35 hack forwards, turned the ball over and cost us a goal. Another was when we had almost sealed the game, had all the momentum and we were streaming forwards into goal. Jones ends up with the footy, has no idea what to do with it and fumbles something like a handball behind his shoulder, again letting Essendon take possession and kick a goal.

Yes he's chasing and applying pressure, but so are Saunders and Templeton, and they're actually contributing positively with the ball as well. I'd rather find another kid who can both chase and kick a footy rather than persevere with Jones who can just chase. Jones in 2014 is a less skilled, non-goalkicking version of Andrew McQualter 2009-2010.

I agree with all of this apart from the last bit about McQualter.

Mini had a very very good second half in 2008 and first half 2009. Fell away in 2010 but that also had something to do with instructions if the Bubble or the Bible or what ever it was called is taken to be true.

[dragit]

Goal assists is a good stat I hadn't looked at, cheers.

Any idea how many in the last 3 weeks?

I'm not sold on the "trying really hard" argument. We have plenty of those - Hayes, Armitage, Montagna, Riewoldt, Geary, Steven all bust a nut every week... Wright, Saunders, Dunstan aren't short on ticker either.

No doubt Clint will have a better game this week against another bottom 4 side.

He has the same lvel of tenacity you have for trying to remove him from the team. Well done you are a great influence on younger posters with lazy attitudes to posting. Many give up after being hit with evidence that contradicts their bias.

Very funny

I wish there was more evidence relating to the past 3 games, which is what I am asking about.

So far I have been hit with tenacity, work ethic & trying hard.
Just checked the goal assists... Grand total of 2 in the past 3 games.

I'm not trying to remove him from the team, I'm just trying to have a discussion with other fans on a forum. Unfortunately I'm not part of the selection committee.

Slam me with a few more stats from the last 3 weeks... He's had plenty of tackles... I'll give him that.

[SaintPav]

dragit, a friend of a friend sat in on a team selection meeting in 2011 for the game against Melbourne at Etihad.

Lyon wanted to drop CJ but there was no one else, so he stayed in.

Give it time, you will get your wish.

[Milne]

He may be there purely as an example of how hard you have to work... He sets the standards for the youngsters to follow.

He is actually a pretty perfect example of what can be accomplished without the polish and composure that the young guys often lack. The message to the young guys can be 'look at CJ, if you work as hard as him and give everything you will get a game and contribute, regardless of mistakes etc.'

If i were a coach (and clearly i am not) i would pull him out front after every game and ask each team member to put their hand if they thought they worked as hard as CJ. And if they didn't put their hand up then they know they need to find some more juice.

anyway, pointless rant over

He's another Jason Blake.

Not the most talented guy on the park but tries to absolute guts out for the club.

[dragit]

dragit, a friend of a friend sat in on a team selection meeting in 2011 for the game against Melbourne at Etihad.

Lyon wanted to drop CJ but there was no one else, so he stayed in.

Give it time, you will get your wish.

He has been dropped briefly in the past couple of seasons, worked his way back through sheer hard work which I salute him for.

Anyone over the age of 28 needs to be performing significantly better than the younger guy vying for a similar position or we are wasting our time… this includes our other veterans too. I think Gwilt is probably fortunate that Wright, Roberton, Fisher & Gilbert have all been out, though he has been very good in their absence.

If Armitage comes back, Weller & Ross keep performing then CJ would need to playing better to hold his spot, that's all. I'm glad we didn't wait for 6 weeks of Billings performing in the VFL… might be the same with Acres, who knows.

[Toy Saint]

St Kilda will be a better team is the young guys can win a spot in this team ahead of Clint.

He's still one of the better taggers in the competition.