Lets Be Honest! Its the coaching.

[dragit]

2 time premiership player? Who dat Greg?

[Greg T]

2 time premiership player? Who dat Greg?

Apologies Mate, got carried away.....should be shot der...

[ShanghaiSaint]

Ross Lyon, Alastair Clarkson, MM would have got better results.... Possibly 6-12 given injuries

Yur on drugs no way. Lyon fled a sinking ship he started putting holes in. Wake up clarkson first years at the dawks where real winners remember?

[Greg T]

Certainly agree with this.
Maybe he's bitten off more than he can chew .He would of been aware of his situation when e signed.
No rocket science in playing the kids.its all a natural progression.
His handling of Goddard was poor .As if Ess would get rid of Watson.Was Lynch under his watch also?
Hopefully our overpaid CEO will not extend his contract until and if it is warranted this time next year
But our history will suggest otherwise..Will they ever learn ?
I'm looking more forward to getting a gun Pres,than listening to SW for the next 12 mths.

What you and spert are doing is "fondly" remembering RL and hIs stkilda two years prior to RL's departure
We were sliding down the ladder WHEN Lyon left, AND you are comparing our "stars" who are now three years older/gone.
Goddard was a broken and flawed player in those last two years before Lyon left.
Comparing Goddard and Watson is just plain rediculous. And I admit to a warm fuzzy feeling when Luke Ball out marked & slotted the goal last week against goddard
Lynch left because he did not see a future under Lyon, nothing to do with Watters.
So far Watters has only had one draft that he could influence and he inherited a terrible list to try and fix, and that is the "rocket science" fact.
But I will concede maybe you have a point about our overpriced CEO and non-existant President.[/quote

As a 2 time grandfinal player I clearly rate Goddard higher than you did.I never saw Bj as a flawed or broken player.
He would of made an excellent captain of our club. Watson may never be a premiership player , but Ess will never let a
player like that go IMO .Goddard to me was a s valuable as Watson is to Essendon.It really unbalanced the club.
The club had a chance to turn us into a power house during these years with RL but failed to capitalise on a lifetime of waiting .
That's what I fondly remember.Maybe these buffoons that appointed SW are more to blame from the powerhouse we could of
been to the dismal situation we find ourselves in now.

[Greg T]

Couldn't agree more. It's always interesting to ask the "Coach knockers" for specific and objective examples of why they think the things they do regarding the coach.

Blaming SW for Goddard leaving is a laughable example of how misguided the "Coach knockers" are.

Never blamed him for Goddard leaving.His handling of it was poor as was the clubs negotiations.
No coach would ever want a 2 time grandfinal player to go.But SW wasn't going to give him the 4 years.
Certainly think that had an adverse effect to the rest of the playin group as well.[/quote]

[Cairnsman]

Couldn't agree more. It's always interesting to ask the "Coach knockers" for specific and objective examples of why they think the things they do regarding the coach.

Blaming SW for Goddard leaving is a laughable example of how misguided the "Coach knockers" are.

Never blamed him for Goddard leaving.His handling of it was poor as was the clubs negotiations.
No coach would ever want a 2 time grandfinal player to go.But SW wasn't going to give him the 4 years.
Certainly think that had an adverse effect to the rest of the playin group as well.

[/quote]

Adverse effect to the rest of the playing group...how?

[Greg T]

Couldn't agree more. It's always interesting to ask the "Coach knockers" for specific and objective examples of why they think the things they do regarding the coach.

Blaming SW for Goddard leaving is a laughable example of how misguided the "Coach knockers" are.

Never blamed him for Goddard leaving.His handling of it was poor as was the clubs negotiations.
No coach would ever want a 2 time grandfinal player to go.But SW wasn't going to give him the 4 years.
Certainly think that had an adverse effect to the rest of the playin group as well.

Adverse effect to the rest of the playing group...how?[/quote]
He was well respected by the other players he had come thru with,many stated they were upset with his
Departure.it certainly unbalanced the structures in place IMO in a big way .

[Cairnsman]

Never blamed him for Goddard leaving.His handling of it was poor as was the clubs negotiations.
No coach would ever want a 2 time grandfinal player to go.But SW wasn't going to give him the 4 years.
Certainly think that had an adverse effect to the rest of the playin group as well.

Adverse effect to the rest of the playing group...how?

He was well respected by the other players he had come thru with,many stated they were upset with his
Departure.it certainly unbalanced the structures in place IMO in a big way .[/quote]


How does players being upset unbalance the structures in place? Do you mean structures on the field or around the club? Can you give examples?

[Greg T]

Adverse effect to the rest of the playing group...how?[/quote]
He was well respected by the other players he had come thru with,many stated they were upset with his
Departure.it certainly unbalanced the structures in place IMO in a big way .[/quote]


How does players being upset unbalance the structures in place? Do you mean structures on the field or around the club? Can you give examples?[/quote]

Especially on the field .kicking skills,marking , decision making, starred in a grand final.
We don't have many players like that.
I saw him as a future captain as well.hes left a big hole.

[Devilhead]

I saw him as a future captain as well.hes left a big hole.

You might have seen him as a future captian but he himself didn't - obtaining a shite load of MONEY was Goddard's number one priority - not quite the "club first" characteristic you would want from a Captain

Funny enough he left a gaping hole only to step into what could probably be an even bigger one -

[hayes66]

I can't understand all this carry on about Lynch. My understanding is, the general opinion was Lynch was no good, and let's get what we can for him. Even when he kicked ten everyone was going on about against who? Won't last etc. Now, we seem to have changed our opinion??
Question, drafting him at thirteen, good pick or bad? Seeing at the time of his selection we had, Dempster, Eddy and McQualtor playing that role. Was it a need?

[plugger66]

Is quoting that hard. We have people responding to themselves.

[plugger66]

Is quoting that hard. We have people responding to themselves.

Its harder than you think.

[Kickit]

I have no idea how the system works within StKilda at the moment.
For all I know Watters may have begged Bains and Pelchen to sign Goddard for 4 years.

[SunburySaint]

Is quoting that hard. We have people responding to themselves.

Its harder than you think.

[hayes66]

6. Pathetic drafting during the Lyon years
Was Lynch a good pick at 13?
I'll have a go at answering my own question, seeing it hasn't raised much response.
The answer is, no. The reason Lynch was a poor pick is to keep the above statement true. If the answer is yes then the 08 draft period has four players playing AFL. Dawson, Simpkin, Stanley and Lynch. You could say three are playing regular AFL football. They being, Lynch, Dawson and Stanley. Let's hope Freo doesn't win the flag and Dawson becomes a premiership player. Heaven help us if Lynch plays say 150 games. Then if Simpkin and Stanley make it, we're will that leave us?
Four players out of one draft!!!! Not possible. Because as we all know 08 was pathetic because posters On this forum have told us so and please don't mention the trade for Ray.

[desertsaint]

Is quoting that hard.
Its harder than you think.

No it isn't.

We have people responding to themselves.

[Kickit]

6. Pathetic drafting during the Lyon years
Was Lynch a good pick at 13?
I'll have a go at answering my own question, seeing it hasn't raised much response.
The answer is, no. The reason Lynch was a poor pick is to keep the above statement true. If the answer is yes then the 08 draft period has four players playing AFL. Dawson, Simpkin, Stanley and Lynch. You could say three are playing regular AFL football. They being, Lynch, Dawson and Stanley. Let's hope Freo doesn't win the flag and Dawson becomes a premiership player. Heaven help us if Lynch plays say 150 games. Then if Simpkin and Stanley make it, we're will that leave us?
Four players out of one draft!!!! Not possible. Because as we all know 08 was pathetic because posters On this forum have told us so and please don't mention the trade for Ray.

The kind of role Lynch is playing now seems to have been something Lyon was looking for ( Ryan Gamble anyone ).
But after a couple of years he was not a happy soul and didn't look close to getting a regular game.
Good drafting + Poor development?
IMO some of these young guys ( pathetic as it sounds ) just needed to feel they were part of things and that they were important to the club. I think Watters is better at the metaphorical hugs than Lyon was.

[dragit]

6. Pathetic drafting during the Lyon years
Was Lynch a good pick at 13?
I'll have a go at answering my own question, seeing it hasn't raised much response.
The answer is, no. The reason Lynch was a poor pick is to keep the above statement true. If the answer is yes then the 08 draft period has four players playing AFL. Dawson, Simpkin, Stanley and Lynch. You could say three are playing regular AFL football. They being, Lynch, Dawson and Stanley. Let's hope Freo doesn't win the flag and Dawson becomes a premiership player. Heaven help us if Lynch plays say 150 games. Then if Simpkin and Stanley make it, we're will that leave us?
Four players out of one draft!!!! Not possible. Because as we all know 08 was pathetic because posters On this forum have told us so and please don't mention the trade for Ray.

The kind of role Lynch is playing now seems to have been something Lyon was looking for ( Ryan Gamble anyone ).
But after a couple of years he was not a happy soul and didn't look close to getting a regular game.
Good drafting + Poor development?
IMO some of these young guys ( pathetic as it sounds ) just needed to feel they were part of things and that they were important to the club. I think Watters is better at the metaphorical hugs than Lyon was.

You win some, you lose some, I'm sure Dempster & Ray would both have been handy at stages for Sydney & the dogs... Geelong should have held on to King, the Hawks would be spewing about Kennedy... Freo could still use Roberton...

[hayes66]

6. Pathetic drafting during the Lyon years
Was Lynch a good pick at 13?
I'll have a go at answering my own question, seeing it hasn't raised much response.
The answer is, no. The reason Lynch was a poor pick is to keep the above statement true. If the answer is yes then the 08 draft period has four players playing AFL. Dawson, Simpkin, Stanley and Lynch. You could say three are playing regular AFL football. They being, Lynch, Dawson and Stanley. Let's hope Freo doesn't win the flag and Dawson becomes a premiership player. Heaven help us if Lynch plays say 150 games. Then if Simpkin and Stanley make it, we're will that leave us?
Four players out of one draft!!!! Not possible. Because as we all know 08 was pathetic because posters On this forum have told us so and please don't mention the trade for Ray.

The kind of role Lynch is playing now seems to have been something Lyon was looking for ( Ryan Gamble anyone ).
But after a couple of years he was not a happy soul and didn't look close to getting a regular game.
GOOD DRAFTING + Poor development?
IMO some of these young guys ( pathetic as it sounds ) just needed to feel they were part of things and that they were important to the club. I think Watters is better at the metaphorical hugs than Lyon was.

Gee, your game suggesting there may of been SOME good drafting during the Lyon years!!! Or do I give you credit for actually thinking for yourself and judging each case on it's merits. I go for the latter. Well done. Appreciate a poster who doesn't just follow the crowd.

[Kickit]

6. Pathetic drafting during the Lyon years
Was Lynch a good pick at 13?
I'll have a go at answering my own question, seeing it hasn't raised much response.
The answer is, no. The reason Lynch was a poor pick is to keep the above statement true. If the answer is yes then the 08 draft period has four players playing AFL. Dawson, Simpkin, Stanley and Lynch. You could say three are playing regular AFL football. They being, Lynch, Dawson and Stanley. Let's hope Freo doesn't win the flag and Dawson becomes a premiership player. Heaven help us if Lynch plays say 150 games. Then if Simpkin and Stanley make it, we're will that leave us?
Four players out of one draft!!!! Not possible. Because as we all know 08 was pathetic because posters On this forum have told us so and please don't mention the trade for Ray.

The kind of role Lynch is playing now seems to have been something Lyon was looking for ( Ryan Gamble anyone ).
But after a couple of years he was not a happy soul and didn't look close to getting a regular game.
GOOD DRAFTING + Poor development?
IMO some of these young guys ( pathetic as it sounds ) just needed to feel they were part of things and that they were important to the club. I think Watters is better at the metaphorical hugs than Lyon was.

Gee, your game suggesting there may of been SOME good drafting during the Lyon years!!! Or do I give you credit for actually thinking for yourself and judging each case on it's merits. I go for the latter. Well done. Appreciate a poster who doesn't just follow the crowd.

Its complicated working out what went wrong.
Lynch was named in most of the phantom drafts at the time , but maybe we took him a bit early. He certainly wasn't the best draft choice. Some had us going for Trengove ( would have been nice ), and there was bucket loads of midfield talent in that draft.
Hell, some people thought Heyne might go early second round, which made us think we'd got a bargain. ( Also failed as a Carlton rookie - so not our development ).

The draft is just a lottery, No club drafted Tom Rockliff in that draft.

But somehow the Saints went for years avoiding the best choices.

[Dis Believer]

It cat inky affected other players as well.

Come again ??......

[Dis Believer]

I heard SW state many times they were not prepared to give him 4 years during the talks,
Hence my comment the it was a situation handled poorly,and to be honest,I never felt SW wanted Goddard to stay.
Maybe a power play there.

You're taking one point in isolation. SW was never about one player staying in a rebuild. Our salary structure was all over the shop, and hurting us. BJ going got us a first rounder and salary cap relief for the next four years. At the same time they also halved Roo's salary. We also had a massive clean out of the list at the end of last year. Wouldn't surprise me to see another at the end of this year too.

For the long term we need a more even spread of talent, and moving to that causes short term pain. BJ was only one piece of the puzzle. Had free agancy not come in, it wouldn't surprse me if we had traded BJ. He was about all we had other than ROo and Dal with any real currency.

And until the kids have got some games and strength into them, the structure will look fragile and the coaching haphazard. The consistency in the structure is what experience and maturity brings. The kids know the game plan, but run out of legs to keep it going, or get lost in traffic due to inexperience. That will change with time.

I am willing to have people bookmark this and throw it back at me in a year or two. SW will get an extension as coach. Ross, Newnes, Murdoch, Saunders, Wright, Webster, Markworth, Lee, White, Hickey, Roberton, Michington, Stanley, Armitage, Steven, McEvoy & Siposs will all still be on our list playing seniors in two years.

[hayes66]

Lynch was named in most of the phantom drafts at the time , but maybe we took him a bit early. He certainly wasn't the best draft choice.
Good. "Phew" for a moment there I thought you were saying Lynch was a good pick. You're right if the Phantom drafts mentioned him as a late pick and we took him early then we must be wrong. I hope no one tells Geelong about Phantom drafts otherwise they will stop taking, Mackie, Harry Taylor etc.

[stinger]

Its complicated working out what went wrong.
Lynch was named in most of the phantom drafts at the time , but maybe we took him a bit early. He certainly wasn't the best draft choice. Some had us going for Trengove ( would have been nice ), and there was bucket loads of midfield talent in that draft.
Hell, some people thought Heyne might go early second round, which made us think we'd got a bargain. ( Also failed as a Carlton rookie - so not our development ).

funny thing...well not so funny now...but i heard kossi telling my mate that heyne would be the next big thing....