A different perspective. Can we do a WCE?

[White Winmar]

Rather than predictions of wandering aimlessly for years in a Melbourne-like haze of mediocrity, how about we look for an example of the opposite? I know as Saints supporters it is our birthright to be pessimistic, but let's look at West Coast for a point of difference. Last in 2010, plenty of pressure on the coach, a club legend to boot.

Their spoon didn't even deliver the usual consolation prize of the number 1 draft pick. The GCS ensured that number 4 was as good as it would get. Even the priority pick that year came at the end of round one at number 26. Every other team ensured that pick would be a beauty in Jack Darling. Most predicted a long, slow and arduous climb back into the upper half of the ladder. Did they panic? No. No mass sackings, no veterans shown the door. Just the trademark stability of one of the competition's premier clubs. Delistings were Ashley Hansen, Matthew Spangher, Will Sullivan, Adam Cockie and Tony Notte. Hardly radical surgery. Gaff and Darling were drafted. Not that much changed at Subiaco over the summer. Like us, WCE's veterans had been written off as past it. Cox, Kerr, Embley and Glass were "washed up". The so called premiership window had been nailed shut.

By the end of 2011, the WCE had made the top four, losing the preliminary final to eventual premiers, Geelong. They've been at or near the top ever since. So it's possible. A decade of excellence should mean that this club treats this as they say in the financial world, a "necessary correction" or the "recession we had to have". Let's hope we emulate the Eagles and not the perennial losers. Go you Sainters!

[gringo]

I see lots of similarities and have said so before. Old boys getting a bad injury run and the slide compounded. They did the business with recruiting though which helps.

Stability will always be better than panic sackings and mass delistings. As a psychologist you would know you don't excel in a siege situation. If Melbournes players come away with any confidence left after the last few years they are tough mentally.

[mr six o'clock]

NO !

They are getting beaten by the tigers , so they will be under the pump from the West Australian media all week , they come out all guns blazing against us !

It would be nice if the media applied the blow torch to our lot , our intensity has been lucklustre since the carlton game .

[SemperFidelis]

Thanks WW. Good post, as I was hand wringing and wailing with the best of them at Q1 last night, but even after that woeful performance I still find it hard to believe our position on the ladder, because I do believe it is possible to be competitive with the better teams even with most of the current cattle if we are prepared to give it a crack. Possibly delusional, but a new (even semi-elite) mid and a tall (I'll take a defender or a ruck because I reckon Macca can be repurposed) and we are a much more competitive proposition, with no need to trade half the team or sack the coach. We won't make top 4 (unless there is an undiscovered Nicnat out there) but to be in the mix for the 8 while the babies develop doesn't seem an impossible dream.

[Munga]

Might be more like Collingwood post 2003. A couple of runner ups, then finished 13th and 15th picked up Thomas and Pendlebury, then back up to fifth.

[saintspremiers]

Thanks WW. Good post, as I was hand wringing and wailing with the best of them at Q1 last night, but even after that woeful performance I still find it hard to believe our position on the ladder, because I do believe it is possible to be competitive with the better teams even with most of the current cattle if we are prepared to give it a crack. Possibly delusional, but a new (even semi-elite) mid and a tall (I'll take a defender or a ruck because I reckon Macca can be repurposed) and we are a much more competitive proposition, with no need to trade half the team or sack the coach. We won't make top 4 (unless there is an undiscovered Nicnat out there) but to be in the mix for the 8 while the babies develop doesn't seem an impossible dream.

Sorry but if you are implying that we are a chance of top 8 next season you need serious help.

[gringo]

I heard Geelong talking about how they employ a senior and 2 assistants with specialist coaches as well they then employ two assistants and development people at their VFL team. We need to do a lot with a little to compete with that. They suggested all the big clubs have a similar set up and they are only about 3rd or 4th in spending.

Luke Ball was at my kids footy club and he suggested that the players were the same but the whole place was better set up and a world away from what the Saints had. Also mentioned playing in front of sell outs every week. Pretty depressing. At least Scotty has tried to catch us up a bit. Pelchen love him or hate him has at least put someone in a role that you can't believe we lived with out so long.

It is the footy aparthied they talk of footy department spend.

[White Winmar]

Emma wrote about this in today's paper, apparently. She must read this forum. Personally, I reckon she's a tad overrated. Then again, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

[dragit]

Emma wrote about this in today's paper, apparently. She must read this forum. Personally, I reckon she's a tad overrated. Then again, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

You are Emma, aren't you? Go on, admit it?

[White Winmar]

[quote="dragit"][quote="White Winmar"]Emma wrote about this in today's paper, apparently. She must read this forum. Personally, I reckon she's a tad overrated. Then again, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! [/quote]
You are Emma, aren't you? Go on, admit it?[/quote]
Damn you"re good. What gave it away?

[Cairnsman]

The Melbourne comparisons or predictions are way off but following a pattern similar to West Coast post 2006 and Collingwood post 2003 are predictions that are more realistic. The key to it if you use West Coast and Collingwood as examples is holding your nerve and creating stability in the club at all levels. Neither of those clubs sacked their coaches. Sacking coaches sends you straight to jail and you don't past go and you don't collect 200.

Melbourne is so broken at every level it is just so hard to fathom how a modern day organisation gets into that situation but it has and I suspect a lot of it has to do with bottom-up management. The biggest mistake it made was to sack Neil Bailey and make a bunch of young players feel even more self important than they already did. Those same players are now holding the club to ransom and if they sack Neeld then the same players will treat the next coach with even stronger contempt at the first sign of a road bump. If that sounds familiar it's probably because you are a Saints supporter that lived through the 70s, 80s and 90,s and calls of "sack the coach" is almost as passé as "BAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL!" in the outer.

AFL clubs are historically one of the rare organisations that I can think of where white anting is tolerated and surely, hopefully, our club has evolved and finally doesn't succumb to the whims of minority influences or make dramatic knee jerk reactions because of pressure from blood thirsty media hounding.

[spert]

The priority is getting the right mixture of players across the ground. The spine/ KPP (FF -CHF-C-CHB-FB) is the main ingredient to start with and the recruiting/ development challenge is to get players who can win their contests, or at least break-even. Most successful teams have a winning spine- look at Hawthorn, Geelong, Swans, and Pies- they can usually win two or more KPs in most matches, and win as a result. We have Roo at CHF and that's it, no other spine positions can win let alone break even and that's why we can't win games, and to compound that, we can't control clearance work around packs, so we lose out again. What we need to find is a spine or at least some of it if we are any hope to win a premiership in the future. We may be able to develop mids from current stock but there's a big hole with the rest, and it may be a long time coming.

[karnaby]

The Melbourne comparisons or predictions are way off but following a pattern similar to West Coast post 2006 and Collingwood post 2003 are predictions that are more realistic. The key to it if you use West Coast and Collingwood as examples is holding your nerve and creating stability in the club at all levels. Neither of those clubs sacked their coaches. Sacking coaches sends you straight to jail and you don't past go and you don't collect 200.

Melbourne is so broken at every level it is just so hard to fathom how a modern day organisation gets into that situation but it has and I suspect a lot of it has to do with bottom-up management. The biggest mistake it made was to sack Neil Bailey and make a bunch of young players feel even more self important than they already did. Those same players are now holding the club to ransom and if they sack Neeld then the same players will treat the next coach with even stronger contempt at the first sign of a road bump. If that sounds familiar it's probably because you are a Saints supporter that lived through the 70s, 80s and 90,s and calls of "sack the coach" is almost as passé as "BAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL!" in the outer.

AFL clubs are historically one of the rare organisations that I can think of where white anting is tolerated and surely, hopefully, our club has evolved and finally doesn't succumb to the whims of minority influences or make dramatic knee jerk reactions because of pressure from blood thirsty media hounding.

Very well said!!

Yes there have been issues with selection, possibly with injury management and in the coaches box on gameday that have given cause for raised eyebrows at least and for some, quite a bit of comment on here. Using those things to justify suggestions for the removal of Watters and Pelchen is a ridiculous over-reaction.

Also re the OP - the eagles had 2 poor season before they got their wooden spoon. It wasn't just one crap season and then back up again. Let's hope that we don't do any/much worse than that.

[dragit]

Damn you"re good. What gave it away?

The blouse.

[matrix]

can we do a west coast?\

what?
get flogged this year???

id rather do a sydney to be honest

[SainterK]

It can turn around quickly....with good development and a game plan

[WellardSaint]

Emma wrote about this in today's paper, apparently. She must read this forum. Personally, I reckon she's a tad overrated. Then again, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

Her article follows yours far too closely to be a coincidence. The wording, the grammar, she has lifted your words for sure. Plagiarism !
I wonder how many other journos get stuff from here and bigfooty? Would be much easier than thinking it up themselves!
Or maybe WW is in fact Emma Quayle? The first post was measured, concise and written professionally, and the Fairfax article followed the following day.
Hmm.

[stinger]

Rather than predictions of wandering aimlessly for years in a Melbourne-like haze of mediocrity, how about we look for an example of the opposite? I know as Saints supporters it is our birthright to be pessimistic, but let's look at West Coast for a point of difference. Last in 2010, plenty of pressure on the coach, a club legend to boot.

Their spoon didn't even deliver the usual consolation prize of the number 1 draft pick. The GCS ensured that number 4 was as good as it would get. Even the priority pick that year came at the end of round one at number 26. Every other team ensured that pick would be a beauty in Jack Darling. Most predicted a long, slow and arduous climb back into the upper half of the ladder. Did they panic? No. No mass sackings, no veterans shown the door. Just the trademark stability of one of the competition's premier clubs. Delistings were Ashley Hansen, Matthew Spangher, Will Sullivan, Adam Cockie and Tony Notte. Hardly radical surgery. Gaff and Darling were drafted. Not that much changed at Subiaco over the summer. Like us, WCE's veterans had been written off as past it. Cox, Kerr, Embley and Glass were "washed up". The so called premiership window had been nailed shut.

By the end of 2011, the WCE had made the top four, losing the preliminary final to eventual premiers, Geelong. They've been at or near the top ever since. So it's possible. A decade of excellence should mean that this club treats this as they say in the financial world, a "necessary correction" or the "recession we had to have". Let's hope we emulate the Eagles and not the perennial losers. Go you Sainters!

a great post...and maybe a glimmer of hope for us if we play our cards right...

[White Winmar]

Damn you"re good. What gave it away?

The blouse.

And there I was thinking it was the fishnet stockings.

[White Winmar]

Emma wrote about this in today's paper, apparently. She must read this forum. Personally, I reckon she's a tad overrated. Then again, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

Her article follows yours far too closely to be a coincidence. The wording, the grammar, she has lifted your words for sure. Plagiarism !
I wonder how many other journos get stuff from here and bigfooty? Would be much easier than thinking it up themselves!
Or maybe WW is in fact Emma Quayle? The first post was measured, concise and written professionally, and the Fairfax article followed the following day.
Hmm.

I have to admit I have some history with her through this forum. I gave her a bit of a lash over her criticism of our recruiting a few years ago. At the time, I thought her article was a bit light on for facts and was merely echoing what the majority thought. She might have been onto something, though. Anyhoo, I accused her of writing puff peices on teenage footballers for a living, which I thought at the time was fairly accurate. Not much has changed to alter my opinion since then. I have met her once, unbeknown to her, as my partner knew her through her work. My partner is a pretty stern judge of others, being a good Sicilian girl, and she thought Emma was pretty good value as a person. I found her quite charming and friendly. The mirror opposite of Caroline Wilson.

I have to admit I enjoy reading a lot of what she writes, but like most Australian sports journalists, she's no Martin Samuel or David Walsh, when it comes to writing. It's one of the things that annoys me about the standard of sports journalism in this country. When I read the output of the poms and yanks (thank goodness for the internet), it makes you realise what a rich source of material sport is when it comes to writing, and I mean truly great writing. So often, our journos write predictable and facile stuff. There are notable exceptions, but they are exactly that, exceptions. Martin Flanagan (although my partner has an intense personal dislike for him for some reason) and Greg Baum spring to mind. Anyone care to throw some others into the mix?

[White Winmar]

I guess this week may tell us exactly where we're at, playing against the team we may be trying to emulate. They must be vulnerable, coming to Melbourne on a short break, seemingly out of form. Surely, if we're ever to come out full of intent, it's got to be this week.

[The Fireman]

last week told us exactly where we are at.

[SaintPav]

Emma wrote about this in today's paper, apparently. She must read this forum. Personally, I reckon she's a tad overrated. Then again, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

Her article follows yours far too closely to be a coincidence. The wording, the grammar, she has lifted your words for sure. Plagiarism !
I wonder how many other journos get stuff from here and bigfooty? Would be much easier than thinking it up themselves!
Or maybe WW is in fact Emma Quayle? The first post was measured, concise and written professionally, and the Fairfax article followed the following day.
Hmm.

I have to admit I have some history with her through this forum. I gave her a bit of a lash over her criticism of our recruiting a few years ago. At the time, I thought her article was a bit light on for facts and was merely echoing what the majority thought. She might have been onto something, though. Anyhoo, I accused her of writing puff peices on teenage footballers for a living, which I thought at the time was fairly accurate. Not much has changed to alter my opinion since then. I have met her once, unbeknown to her, as my partner knew her through her work. My partner is a pretty stern judge of others, being a good Sicilian girl, and she thought Emma was pretty good value as a person. I found her quite charming and friendly. The mirror opposite of Caroline Wilson.

I have to admit I enjoy reading a lot of what she writes, but like most Australian sports journalists, she's no Martin Samuel or David Walsh, when it comes to writing. It's one of the things that annoys me about the standard of sports journalism in this country. When I read the output of the poms and yanks (thank goodness for the internet), it makes you realise what a rich source of material sport is when it comes to writing, and I mean truly great writing. So often, our journos write predictable and facile stuff. There are notable exceptions, but they are exactly that, exceptions. Martin Flanagan (although my partner has an intense personal dislike for him for some reason) and Greg Baum spring to mind. Anyone care to throw some others into the mix?

Garry Lyon?

lol


There's not much there WW. It's a sad real case of affairs but most journalists are not good writers.

What about John Harms? He can write but he's a bit too Geelong centric for my liking.

[Con Gorozidis]

Eagles are shite.
They should have stayed down another year and got two more good players.

[MC Gusto]

Can anyone find a link to Emma quales article ?