Sliding doors and Geelong

[Middo]

Must you swear oh wise one?

You love the bait ....

Spose you were one of the keep TOMMY at St.Kilda crowd cause he's gunna be a champion ...sometimes decisions need to be made and in Watters think we have the right guy ...

When tagging a player like Ablett you need to either shut him down or hurt him going the other way and I dont think we got that right on Sunday.

Regards !!!

[BringBackMadDog]

its funny, i did some calculations on winning %'s for us, geelong, collingwood, hawthorn and sydney over the last 8 years and we came in 2nd over that time with 66% (geelong were way out in front with 74% collingwood 3rd with 58%.
we have had such a fantastic 8 years its such a pity we came so close to a flag without winning. Even still, after watching us through the dark days of the 70's and 80's, a 66% winning % is just paradise!!

[SaintPav]

Geelong basically built a team that was balanced across all lines,- strength and skill in the back line, midfield, rucks and forwards, not just reliance on one or two elite with daylight to the next rung of players. Their midfielders and onballers were, and still are stronger and more skilled than ours, and the club's fitness and injury management regime was obviously better than hours, as they managed to keep a strong team on the field consistantly- all that adds up to success. In our case, Lyon put nothing in place for the future. Thomas had good ideas and I'm sure would still be a good coach, but should have listened to more advice rather than try and drive the whole thing himself when he coached us, and I think that support was what Butters was trying to achieve until GT spat it. If we could have had a fitter and better injury-managed lineup then, we probably would have gone all the way. Anyway it's all history and I'm happy that we have unusually (for St K) stable leadership and a coach who clearly values development of younger players.

Our window under Thomo was from 2004 to 2006 and that's it..There's no way he could have coached us to a flag after that with the way the game was going..

[SaintPav]

Must you swear oh wise one?

You love the bait ....

Spose you were one of the keep TOMMY at St.Kilda crowd cause he's gunna be a champion ...sometimes decisions need to be made and in Watters think we have the right guy ...

When tagging a player like Ablett you need to either shut him down or hurt him going the other way and I dont think we got that right on Sunday.

Regards !!!

you take the bait too pal..and to answer your question about Walsh, it's none of your bees wax what I think about that or anything else. Just keep it clean for other posters and show some respect. Now, nick off.

[clarky449]

Must you swear oh wise one?

You love the bait ....

Spose you were one of the keep TOMMY at St.Kilda crowd cause he's gunna be a champion ...sometimes decisions need to be made and in Watters think we have the right guy ...

When tagging a player like Ablett you need to either shut him down or hurt him going the other way and I dont think we got that right on Sunday.

Regards !!!

you take the bait too pal..and to answer your question about Walsh, it's none of your bees wax what I think about that or anything else. Just keep it clean for other posters and show some respect. Now, nick off.

Why all the hate? This was a good thread. But true to SS style, was derailed by possible Nimbats.

[Con Gorozidis]

Taking nothing away from the cats who have done everying right from the president to the boot studder. But I dont think its a coincidence the two sides to win multiple flags in the last decade(ish) have both had genuine home ground advantages.
The first step of winning a flag is finishing top 4 - and a proper home ground really helps with that challenge.
Some would argue the home ground has helped the swans stay competitive and avoid bottoming out as well.
I know its a combination fo a million factors and there is no simple answer to success. But i think that is one little but significant variable.
And yes if u are really bad (lions circa 2010s) a home ground alone wont save u.

[I Love Peter Kiel]

Yeah, well done Geelong.
3 flags in 5 years...magnificent.

However, they'll be 'thereabouts' for the next couple of years, but won't win another flag.
Start of a long premiership drought (another one).

[bobmurray]

You love the bait ....

Spose you were one of the keep TOMMY at St.Kilda crowd cause he's gunna be a champion ...sometimes decisions need to be made and in Watters think we have the right guy ...

When tagging a player like Ablett you need to either shut him down or hurt him going the other way and I dont think we got that right on Sunday.

Regards !!!

you take the bait too pal..and to answer your question about Walsh, it's none of your bees wax what I think about that or anything else. Just keep it clean for other posters and show some respect. Now, nick off.[/quote]

[8856brother]

Yeah, well done Geelong.
3 flags in 5 years...magnificent.

However, they'll be 'thereabouts' for the next couple of years, but won't win another flag.
Start of a long premiership drought (another one).

Let me get this correct. You have written both Collingwood and Geelong off for the next 20 years. You will look a bit silly if it's a cats and magpies gf this year. One of them will have to win.

[Scollop]

Scarlett toe-pokes to Gazza Jr ... and there you have it in a nutshell: the father-son rule wins the Cats the 2009 flag.

We have been unlucky.

Nevertheless, I think it's too eraly to write off the Saints in the short term (as so many here seeem unusually eager to do). The great unknown is the kids -- the ones Lyin' rarely played -- and for that matter many of them are no longer kids. Rhys Stanley, for instance, could be anything. MIilera and Ledger looks the goods. Jack Steven and Armitage were excellent against the Suns. If they contine to improve, and the core group relocates its hunger ... who knows?

It wasn't just a kick into Chappy's chest...there were two or three other Saints players contesting ten meters out from goal but Varcoe crumbed and got the footy across to Chapman. Geelong crumbers were better than ours and they didn't rely on the footy bouncing into their arms, they actually won the contested ball...something Lyon's forwards failed to do time and time again, but he stuck to the same line-up in finals. There were players like Eddy and Dempster getting a game when they clearly didn't deserve to at the time. If Lyon tried a few other players instead of relying on his role players and a steady list of 24 or 25 blokes we may have had some of the spark and speed out on the ground in '09 and it could've been the difference. Jack Steven and Armo especially were overlooked for far too many games that year.

[plugger66]

Yeah, well done Geelong.
3 flags in 5 years...magnificent.

However, they'll be 'thereabouts' for the next couple of years, but won't win another flag.
Start of a long premiership drought (another one).

Im sure their supporters will be devastated. Who will win the flag in the next few years because according to you on another thread we will win the next 3. Dont you want people to take you seriously. Everyone can have an opinion but ill informed ones are a bit silly.

[plugger66]

Scarlett toe-pokes to Gazza Jr ... and there you have it in a nutshell: the father-son rule wins the Cats the 2009 flag.

We have been unlucky.

Nevertheless, I think it's too eraly to write off the Saints in the short term (as so many here seeem unusually eager to do). The great unknown is the kids -- the ones Lyin' rarely played -- and for that matter many of them are no longer kids. Rhys Stanley, for instance, could be anything. MIilera and Ledger looks the goods. Jack Steven and Armitage were excellent against the Suns. If they contine to improve, and the core group relocates its hunger ... who knows?

It wasn't just a kick into Chappy's chest...there were two or three other Saints players contesting ten meters out from goal but Varcoe crumbed and got the footy across to Chapman. Geelong crumbers were better than ours and they didn't rely on the footy bouncing into their arms, they actually won the contested ball...something Lyon's forwards failed to do time and time again, but he stuck to the same line-up in finals. There were players like Eddy and Dempster getting a game when they clearly didn't deserve to at the time. If Lyon tried a few other players instead of relying on his role players and a steady list of 24 or 25 blokes we may have had some of the spark and speed out on the ground in '09 and it could've been the difference. Jack Steven and Armo especially were overlooked for far too many games that year.

Jack had bad groins but anything to knock RL wont stop the truth.

[BigMart]

Armitage 2009? He won the sandy B&F.... Has proved since he was capable of better....would have loved his fierce contested style and tackling ability on that wintry September day in 2009

Geary 2009? Was the best of our kids in 2009 for the most part, Not sure if he was injured....

J.Gwilt???
Not in the side in 2009. His big body and skill would have been nice in 2009.

Mini deserved his spot.

[Middo]

Must you swear oh wise one?

You love the bait ....

Spose you were one of the keep TOMMY at St.Kilda crowd cause he's gunna be a champion ...sometimes decisions need to be made and in Watters think we have the right guy ...

When tagging a player like Ablett you need to either shut him down or hurt him going the other way and I dont think we got that right on Sunday.

Regards !!!

you take the bait too pal..and to answer your question about Walsh, it's none of your bees wax what I think about that or anything else. Just keep it clean for other posters and show some respect. Now, nick off.

SS life member big deal , good comeback "you take the bait too" ha ha !!!
keep telling posters what to do cause that's working for you , sorry bout the smut but thought you liked it ...

[paddy]

The one thing that seems to seperate Geelong from the rest is their work rate.... They never say die... (pardon the cliche)

IMO this is due to a strong and positive culture at the club....

It is worth noting that, even though they have had a great ability to recruit talent, their development of young talent is exceptional...

This seems to be a greater focus at our club now, and i look forward to an era, moving forward, where players are excited to be drafted by st kilda... because they know they can reach their full potential there....

[SaintPav]

You love the bait ....

Spose you were one of the keep TOMMY at St.Kilda crowd cause he's gunna be a champion ...sometimes decisions need to be made and in Watters think we have the right guy ...

When tagging a player like Ablett you need to either shut him down or hurt him going the other way and I dont think we got that right on Sunday.

Regards !!!

"spose"? You are an imbecile.

[defacto]

Why do we always look back as a club. Look back at 66. Look back at missed opportunities.

How about we look at the present and look forward. I'm more interested on the next 3-5 years. Our off field situation is a mess. I'm happy with the academy and the VFL but gee our sponsorship/image/brand/finances are not in good shape.

Player wise I am very interested in the next draft and how we go about it. This draft is crucial and will set us up for the next 3-5 years.

[Middo]

You love the bait ....

Spose you were one of the keep TOMMY at St.Kilda crowd cause he's gunna be a champion ...sometimes decisions need to be made and in Watters think we have the right guy ...

When tagging a player like Ablett you need to either shut him down or hurt him going the other way and I dont think we got that right on Sunday.

Regards !!!

"spose"? You are an imbecile.

Ha Ha missed that first time did we...?
Biting bigtime today .....
Oh and please stop the name calling .....

[SaintPav]

You love the bait ....

Spose you were one of the keep TOMMY at St.Kilda crowd cause he's gunna be a champion ...sometimes decisions need to be made and in Watters think we have the right guy ...

When tagging a player like Ablett you need to either shut him down or hurt him going the other way and I dont think we got that right on Sunday.

Regards !!!

"spose"? You are an imbecile.

Ha Ha missed that first time did we...?
Biting bigtime today .....
Oh and please stop the name calling .....

God you are dumb.

[8856brother]

Why do we always look back as a club. Look back at 66. Look back at missed opportunities.

How about we look at the present and look forward. I'm more interested on the next 3-5 years. Our off field situation is a mess. I'm happy with the academy and the VFL but gee our sponsorship/image/brand/finances are not in good shape.

Player wise I am very interested in the next draft and how we go about it. This draft is crucial and will set us up for the next 3-5 years.

I have been looking forward since 1967 when I was born. It has proven not to be too fruitful. So sometimes I look back at what might have been.

[meher baba]

Costa and Thompson and others at the club implemented a strategy in the early 2000s which was very similar to that developed by Thomas, Butterss and Waldron at the same time. That is, build a strong playing list based on young guys recruited through the draft and get them to develop close teamwork and use this platform as the basis to become one of the top clubs over a long period:
........

Err yes GTrain, Hamill, Capuano, Voss, Lawrence, Powell, Black, Penny, Knoble, Guerra, Ackland, Rix, Stone, Murray, Fiora were all young guys recruited through the draft!!!! Not to mention others such as Brooks and Watts.

Similar strategy. Pigs arse..... the Cat's approach was poles apart from the Saint's strategy. One can argue the merits of each, but similar there were not.

The Cat's main departure from drafting kids, was their search for big guys that could kick goals....Mooney, Ottens and lately the Pod. The Saints by contrast have had a constant Foreign Legion approach. Sure we were fortunate to finish bottom in an era of the priority pick coming in, and gained BJ due to the Blues cheating..but bother were dumb-arsed luck rather than the cat's methodical approach.

Even the Cat's attitude to bad apples was different. They turned SJ around, whereas we showed Everitt and Hall the door.

Don't let facts get in the way of a love affair!!

It's good to see that your love affair with Ross Lyon (and/or your irrational under rating of GT), which seemed to dim for a bit late last year, is coming back to full flower.

If you can't see that, up to 2006, there was a certain broad similarity between our club's approach and that being pursued by Geelong and then, under Lyon we went in a different direction, then I don't think there's much point in arguing with you.

As far as I can see, under Butterss and Waldron and Thomas we were persuing a strategy of trying to recruit a group of players - both through the draft and through recycling - who would form the nucleus of a team that would develop over a 5-10 year period. Apart from the very poor choice of Capuano (and I'm not sure whose choice he was) all of the guys you have listed were assessed, when they were recruited, of being capable of playing 100 games or more for our club. Moreover, all of them were throught to possess skills relevant to the sort of Brisbane Lions/rolling attack game plan.

Lyon and those managing the club while he was with us, collectively took a different approach. They wanted players who could perform certain roles in the here and now. Lyon's strategy was far more defensively-oriented and gave more emphasis to athleticism and work ethic than to ball skills. His approach was ground-breaking and brilliant and almost snatched us two flags. But it was different to the one we had before 2006 and there is now perhaps a price to pay for that difference. Geelong, meanwhile, keep rolling along.

On the whole, I'm prepared to accept the argument that we needed to change horses in 2006 in order to come so close in 2009 and 2010. But sometimes I wonder if there was some way we could have reached those heights while also retaining some of the concept of building for the long-term: eg, with a coach other than GT or Lyon and certainly with more effective football management cadre than we seem to have had in recent years.

The wheels completely fell off our list management strategy at the end of 2009. We alienated Ball and then lost him for no compensation while continuing to proclaim that he was a required player. We ditched Goose (who might be a bit useful to us right now) and X. We then engaged in an orgy of recycling: Lovett, Peake, Smith, Pattison and promoting Dawson and Miles, with Winmar as our only significant newly drafted talent. It was unquestionably a disastrous year in terms of long-term list development and, while it didn't affect us signficiantly in the short-term (ie, we all but won the premiership again in 2010), I am certain we will be paying a long-term price for this disaster. Perhaps we can simply heap all the blame on the departed Matthew Drain - and I'm sure he was responsible for a lot of the poor decision-making - but I believe that the approach the club took in late 2009 was sypmtomatic of its overall strategic thinking: looking for a certain type of player to top up the list in the here and now, with no great interest in whether they would still be playing for the club in five years time.

It seems to me that Geelong have been able to have their cake and eat it too: steadily evolving their list as their stars leave one by one, but retaining their place at the head of the table. Perhaps that was never going to be possible for us, but I suspect that the brains trust at helm of the club in the late 2000s wasn't even considering it as a possibility. Fair enough in some ways: we only have one premiership and would just about sell our souls for a second one. But right now I see it as a bit of a shame.

[Superstar]

Actually now when you look at it, the two first rounders for little Gary, and the introduction of free agency I think things might fall the way of the Cats again. They will drop off a bit, but think they'll turn it around quicker than people think.

[Saints43]

Even the Cat's attitude to bad apples was different. They turned SJ around, whereas we showed Everitt and Hall the door.

SJ failed a medical at Collingwood. He was on the way out. Luck saved them.

Another factor in the Cats success would probably be their financial turnaround. They got to bolt seats into their terraces and charge top dollar for them.

They haven't done much wrong though, have they?

[Middo]

God you are dumb.[/quote] SaintPav



Now your being nasty ....

[SaintPav]

God you are dumb.

Now your being nasty ....