Second most succesful coach!

[Spinner]

Difference between GT and RL.

GT got within a bee's dick of getting into a GF. Against the Power past their peak. IMO with a stronger list.

RL got within a bee's dick of winning TWO GF's. Against quite possibly the best team ever in the cats at the height of their powers, and against the Pies in a year where they were exceptional. IMO with a weaker list.

Spot on...

[spert]

I suppose there's Jeans and since then we have been waiting for the next successful coach, as the history books only show premiership success, and ultimately a club's success is measured in premierships, not success as runners-up. While it's always good to watch us winning more than losing, so what. My St K stubbie holder shows a nice list of Saints Brownlow medalist but on the other side, one line of text showing one solitary premiership and it is disappointing to consider the richs of talent we have had since 1966, yet not won another flag. It could change this year though.

[SaintPav]

I suppose there's Jeans and since then we have been waiting for the next successful coach, as the history books only show premiership success, and ultimately a club's success is measured in premierships, not success as runners-up. While it's always good to watch us winning more than losing, so what. My St K stubbie holder shows a nice list of Saints Brownlow medalist but on the other side, one line of text showing one solitary premiership and it is disappointing to consider the richs of talent we have had since 1966, yet not won another flag. It could change this year though.

Of cource it is but it doesn't mean you can't enjoy all the wins and all the finals we have played in. We've won a lot of wooden spoons as well and it could have been worse and it was much better than the dark days. Just ask bulldog supporters about making grand finals...

[Old Mate]

No doubt in my mind that Lyon is our second most successful coach but c'mon we've only won the one flag and made a handful of GF's. Second most successful St Kilda coach means jack is the scheme of things. He's certainly not a great AFL coach at this point in his career. He could go down as another Eade. He could be as successful as Blight.

[saintsRrising]

Difference between GT and RL.

GT got within a bee's dick of getting into a GF. Against the Power past their peak. IMO with a stronger list.

yep... they were past their peak when they won the premiership

While it initially sounds strange...think a bit further.

PA won the GF but beat an injury ravaged Lions.

Next year PA crashed to 14th spent force.

IMO St Kilda underachieved in 2004 with the list we had.

Lions were at the end of their era...and PA should have been. The flag should have been ours that year

[whiskers3614]

Lions flogged us by 9 or 10 goals about 2 weeks previous
Port jumped then in GF
Could have won prelim , not sure about GF

[skeptic]

IMO St Kilda underachieved in 2004 with the list we had.

Lions were at the end of their era...and PA should have been. The flag should have been ours that year

Agree wholeheartedly

[SaintPav]

Difference between GT and RL.

GT got within a bee's dick of getting into a GF. Against the Power past their peak. IMO with a stronger list.

yep... they were past their peak when they won the premiership

While it initially sounds strange...think a bit further.

PA won the GF but beat an injury ravaged Lions.

Next year PA crashed to 14th spent force.

IMO St Kilda underachieved in 2004 with the list we had.

Lions were at the end of their era...and PA should have been. The flag should have been ours that year

If we won the Prelim, we would have been massive underdogs and that would have worked in our favour.

[bigcarl]

He's certainly not a great AFL coach at this point in his career.

Agree. His lack of adventure, refusal to take risks and failure to develop players cost us IMO

[Scollop]

Difference between GT and RL.

GT got within a bee's dick of getting into a GF. Against the Power past their peak. IMO with a stronger list.

RL got within a bee's dick of winning TWO GF's. Against quite possibly the best team ever in the cats at the height of their powers, and against the Pies in a year where they were exceptional. IMO with a weaker list.

OooooooooohhhhhhhhKaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy...allow me please to point out the facts re what happened to the Cats team prior to GT's sacking and what happened to them after GT's sacking. YES!!! I'm talking about Geelong and their coach - Bomber Thompson. The Cats got within a bee's dick of eliminating the Swans in the finals series in 2005, and we all know who went on to win the flag in that year...I think it was after the following year that the Cats went within a bee's dick of actually eliminating Bomber Thompson...So there we have it!!! Was Bomber Thompson good enough or wasn't he in 2006? Could he change and would he change and could he lead and motivate and inspire his team to greatness? Did he have their respect and their trust and was he able to learn and grow as a coach?

I wonder what would've happened to the Geelong team if they'd gotten rid of Bomber after their famous marathon end of year review in 2006?? Would the Cats have had the success that they did in 07 and 09??? Would a coaches sacking have unsettled the 'developing' and as yet unsuccesful Cats???

Your argument regarding what the core group of Saints achieved prior to GT's sacking needs to be reviewed keeping in mind that footy clubs employ coaches, and coaches will abide by their contract and will accept changes or they will be sacked. GT was not given the choice to accept an end of season review and any changes to footy departments and structures. He was simply sacked and told that; "You cannot improve this group and you cannot coach us to win a GF" (FULLSTOP) I'm not going to get into a discussion as to the board's or chairman's motives or personal issues re the litigation that transpired 6 months down the track. All I am saying is that, we will never know if GT could've coached the group to a win in a GF, because the bloke wasn't given the opportunity.

[plugger66]

Difference between GT and RL.

GT got within a bee's dick of getting into a GF. Against the Power past their peak. IMO with a stronger list.

yep... they were past their peak when they won the premiership

While it initially sounds strange...think a bit further.

PA won the GF but beat an injury ravaged Lions.

Next year PA crashed to 14th spent force.

IMO St Kilda underachieved in 2004 with the list we had.

Lions were at the end of their era...and PA should have been. The flag should have been ours that year

Unsure how we underacheived. I reckon most would have had us finishing 6th to 8th before the season started. Also those now champions were very young then. We did a great job to finish top 4 and were a Gehrig 100 goals away from a GF IMO.

[saintsRrising]

Difference between GT and RL.

GT got within a bee's dick of getting into a GF. Against the Power past their peak. IMO with a stronger list.

RL got within a bee's dick of winning TWO GF's. Against quite possibly the best team ever in the cats at the height of their powers, and against the Pies in a year where they were exceptional. IMO with a weaker list.

OooooooooohhhhhhhhKaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy...allow me please to point out the facts re what happened to the Cats team prior to GT's sacking and what happened to them after GT's sacking. YES!!! I'm talking about Geelong and their coach - Bomber Thompson. The Cats got within a bee's dick of eliminating the Swans in the finals series in 2005, and we all know who went on to win the flag in that year...I think it was after the following year that the Cats went within a bee's dick of actually eliminating Bomber Thompson...So there we have it!!! Was Bomber Thompson good enough or wasn't he in 2006? Could he change and would he change and could he lead and motivate and inspire his team to greatness? Did he have their respect and their trust and was he able to learn and grow as a coach?

I wonder what would've happened to the Geelong team if they'd gotten rid of Bomber after their famous marathon end of year review in 2006?? Would the Cats have had the success that they did in 07 and 09??? Would a coaches sacking have unsettled the 'developing' and as yet unsuccesful Cats???

.

Your facts....?? If you are going to point them out please do so in full.

Re-read again what I have already written.

However in fuller detail now as your facts are scant.

The GFC carried out a review of their football department and all things pertaining to it.

One outcome of this that I posted earlier in this thread was that the GFC narrowed Bombers role down to that of being a coach and removed other responsibilities that got in his way from being a fully effective coach.

Balme was brought in as part of the Football Department restructure. I saw Bomber interviewed about this afterwards and he discussed how initially he was furious and not at all happy, but that in hindsight it was exactly what was needed and allowed him to coach better.

Your Question: Was Bomber Thompson good enough or wasn't he in 2006? Well according to the GFC, the answer was in that in the Job Description he had that , the GFC clearly considered it was holding their club back. The JD needed changing. This was done.

Contrast this with GT where a similar restructure of the football club was muted by the Board after an extensive review by outside consultants. GT blocked the restructure for a year, and has in every utterance I have seen has maintained that his way was correct. His resistance was core to his being quite rightly sacked.

If Bomber had acted like GT he too would have been sacked. Instead he accepted the changes and became a premiership coach. Who knows, if GT's ego had not been so huge he may have too.

The further restructure we have seen since mid-year with the appointment of Pelchen and a raft of others just continues this process.


The penny needs to drop that it is not really a Lyon vs GT discussion.

It is a discussion of two radically different philosophies on how an AFL Football Department should function. The role of a head coach is just a subset of this.

IMO BOTH the GFC and the StKFC did the right thing in restructuring their fotoball departaments.
Bomber accepted it, GT did not...so GT had to go.

[saintsRrising]

GT was not given the choice to accept an end of season review and any changes to footy departments and structures. He was simply sacked and told that; "You cannot improve this group and you cannot coach us to win a GF" (FULLSTOP) .

You are correct,in what you have written. However in what you have written you have left out the full history of what occurred. The year prior GT was offered a football manager as part of a restructure. This he refused after insisting that his way was best.

GT was given more time which is what he requested, and in that time the Club undertook a more detailed review which reconfirmed in their minds that such a restructure was vital to the Club's future success. By the time that second review was finished, yes GT's papers were stamped.

After his dismissal GT reconfirmed that he did not believe in the new structure.

[Scollop]

GT was not given the choice to accept an end of season review and any changes to footy departments and structures. He was simply sacked and told that; "You cannot improve this group and you cannot coach us to win a GF" (FULLSTOP) .

You are correct,in what you have written. However in what you have written you have left out the full history of what occurred. The year prior GT was offered a football manager as part of a restructure. This he refused after insisting that his way was best.

GT was given more time which is what he requested, and in that time the Club undertook a more detailed review which reconfirmed in their minds that such a restructure was vital to the Club's future success. By the time that second review was finished, yes GT's papers were stamped.

After his dismissal GT reconfirmed that he did not believe in the new structure.

And after Lyon failed, some of us rekindled our belief that GT shouldn't have been sacked...Why didn't the board give GT an ultimatum and simply demand that he work with a football manager, rather than make a request and then see how it goes and then tell him you're out!! Doesn't make sense and reaks of buck passing at best and a futile power struggle at the playing group and at the supporters expense. I acknowledge that there's many Saints people including yourself that follow the inner politics of the footy club and have more background and more insight than myself. Putting aside the philosophies of footy department restructures and footy politics and just focusing on the sacking itself and how it affected what we saw from the playing team...I'd say we lost momentum.

Under GT I truly thought that they were motivated, hungry, united for success and critically- the core groups output was about to reach the pinnacle. The coaches sacking unraveled all of that. The way the team performed in '07 and '08 and the fact that we went backwards while the Cats continued their improvement, makes me think it took too long for our players to warm to the new coach. Had the board interrupted their climb to the summit? Were some of the players past their peak?The questions will remain unanswered forever - but you can't ignore that GT had the playing groups respect and their trust and he was learning and growing as a senior coach. Which teams were in a simiar position to the Saints and seen as the next to challenge? What would've happened to the Geelong team if they'd gotten rid of Bomber? Would the Cats have had the success that they did if they'd unsettled the 'developing' and as yet unsuccesful Cats?

After our team performed the way it did in H&A 2009, I was ready to move on. Maybe the decision to sack GT was going to be finally vindicated. I know that Ross did a good job and consistently tried his best. You cannot ignore his achievements 2 years running, but when you fell short the way we did in '09 you cannot tell me that he got the best out of the team. The run into September 2009 however was not managed well and I cannot understand how you cannot point the finger at anyone but the coach. The fact that Lyon and his match committee did not plan the run in to finals as well as they should have and the fact that we fell short, re-ignited my doubts about the wisdom of GT's sacking and the choice for Ross as head coach. All I'm selfishly looking at is the lost opportunity to win a flag.

[saintsRrising]

Also those now champions were very young then. .

P66 surely you jest???

Lets put aside ALL the younger players that we had that year and look at what we had:

STARS: Hayes, Harvey, GTrain, Aussie Jones, Dal, Hamill

GOOD: Peckett, Milne, Max, Kosi, Fisher, Thompson, Penny

USEFUL: Voss, Guerra, Blake, Baker

So that is 18 not counting the lesser lights.....and not counting the actual "younger players".

Put the young talent back in....

Anyway you cut and dice it we had a very good list.

[Shaggy]

Also those now champions were very young then. .

P66 surely you jest???

Lets put aside ALL the younger players that we had that year and look at what we had:

STARS: Hayes, Harvey, GTrain, Aussie Jones, Dal, Hamill

GOOD: Peckett, Milne, Max, Kosi, Fisher, Thompson, Penny

USEFUL: Voss, Guerra, Blake, Baker

So that is 18 not counting the lesser lights.....and not counting the actual "younger players".

Put the young talent back in....

Anyway you cut and dice it we had a very good list.

Of your list Kosi, Dal, Chips & Penny all had less than 50 games coming into 2004.

You have only named 13 mature aged players.

Even in 2001 when we were bottom dwellers we had 15 aged mature players: - Hayes, Hamill, Harvey, Gehrig, Max, Hall, Burke, Loewe, GTrain, Aussie, Thompson, Peckitt, Voss, Callaghan & Capuano.

In 2010 we had 20 mature aged players:-Roo, BJ, Dal, Chips, Milne, Montagna , Schneider, Gram, Jones, Ray, Peake, Gilbert, Gwilt, Kosi, Dempster, JB, Raph, Bakes, Mini, Gardner. RL understood the importance of mature players.

The expectation we should have a flag when we were majority kids within 3 years of being bottom dwellers is ridiculous IMO.

[saintsRrising]

So that is 18 not counting the lesser lights.....and not counting the actual "younger players".



You have only named 13 mature aged players.

.

"lesser lights" means other players...I just did not list them all...

[Shaggy]

So that is 18 not counting the lesser lights.....and not counting the actual "younger players".



You have only named 13 mature aged players.

.

"lesser lights" means other players...I just did not list them all...

List the mature regulars then to prove your point.

[Shaggy]

I have just done the research.

You missed on Heath Black.

So we had 14 mature aged regular players going into 2004.

We had a go at the flag when we were not expected and we were a young immature side.

[saintsRrising]

List the mature regulars then to prove your point.

Who said regulars?

Now you are just being mischevious as in that year many of the younger players were talented enough and good enough to be playing. Younger players like Roo, Ball and BJ would get games at any club. ie Young talented players such as that will reduce the number of other regulars and of course means that it was impossible to have 22 mature regulars..


However Stephen Powell was a pretty handy player....and actually should have been highlighted as was certainly better than a lesser light. Black was very good too.

Lesser lights included Callgahan, Troy, Moyle. and Knobel all of whom debutted 2000 or earlier.

[barks4eva]

I beg your pardon???

GT DID have all those players.

PLUS he had hamill, gehrig, heath black, aussie jones, x clarke, Guerra, Voss, TS40, and Robert Harvey. Compare that to Eddy, Mcqualter, Raph, Jones, Ray, Armitage, Geary, Dempster and Polo.

The truth is the exact opposite to what you've said - if Ross Lyon had the 2004-05 list at his disposal, there is no doubt in the world he would have taken them to a flag. He would've instilled the defensive hardness that would've gotten us over the line in those prelims vs Port and Sydney, where we lead at 3 qtr time in both games but got run over the top of.

Imagine in '09 or '10 if we could replace Mcqualter with Hamill, Raph with Voss, Aussie Jones with Eddy, R Harvey with Armitage, Guerra with Polo, Heath Black with Geary, and Gehrig with Dempster. I can't believe some people really think Lyon had a better list at his disposal than Thomas. The '04-'05 list was the best list we've ever had, But GT blew it with his lack of match-day tactical nous and negligence toward keeping the list fit and uninjured.

FACT:
RL is our second greatest coach, in terms of on-field success anyway.

If you want to measure it by other means, then it can be debated. But if you're going purely by on-filed success, there can be no argument.

EXACTLY!

Why is this even being debated!

Lyon is a brilliant coach who invents game plans the rest of the competition follow!

The strongest list the club ever had in it's entire history in 2004-2005 due to a draft bonanza and we didn't even make a Grand Final due to mismanagement and poor decision making!

Anyone could have coached that team to a Preliminary Final, ANYONE!

[spert]

Re Bomber at Geelong- Frank Costa pointed the finger directly at him and said this is how it's going to be done, and Balme is here to make sure it gets done to the letter in the coach's box . StK have been chronic under-achievers, and a big reason is the tail wagging the dog too many times. Strong and stable leadership of a club helps hugely toward success, and too many Presidents and boards in our history have caved into high profile figures around the club and the football departments have suffered as a result- coach's get the sack rather than removing disruptive influences around the club (includes players)...that's all history, and our result is one premiership. I hope we are now entering a phase where we have stable and stong club leadership and if so, success will follow.

[saintsRrising]

Re Bomber at Geelong- Frank Costa pointed the finger directly at him and said this is how it's going to be done, and Balme is here to make sure it gets done to the letter in the coach's box . StK have been chronic under-achievers, and a big reason is the tail wagging the dog too many times. Strong and stable leadership of a club helps hugely toward success, and too many Presidents and boards in our history have caved into high profile figures around the club and the football departments have suffered as a result- coach's get the sack rather than removing disruptive influences around the club (includes players)...that's all history, and our result is one premiership. I hope we are now entering a phase where we have stable and stong club leadership and if so, success will follow.

Exactly.


Personally I am currently pleased to see that the current signs look good in this regard.

I am not expecting instant miracles, but let us hope that we can sustian the current initiatives going forward.

[saintsRrising]

Lyon is a brilliant coach who invents game plans the rest of the competition follow!

Lyon did it once. Whether he can do it again we will have to wait and see. Not so easy to do when there other clubs about who have done it.

GT and Rendell adapted the Lions gameplan successfully to the Saints, but then could not innovate when other coaches developed tactics including tempo football and flooding against them.


AFL is very much a game where you evolve, or perish.

IMO it was a key reason why it was correct to move onto another coach. GT was at a dead-end coaching wise

You only add to the list when you also look at desired football department restructuring, off-field issues, inability to work with the Board etc etc.

Early on GT ticked a lot of boxes. At the end they were were virtually all crosses

Evolve or perish.

Lyon now has the same challenge. Mind you with a $million up-front sign on fee he may not care. Still hate the manner in which he departed the club though.

[Scollop]

I beg your pardon???

GT DID have all those players.

PLUS he had hamill, gehrig, heath black, aussie jones, x clarke, Guerra, Voss, TS40, and Robert Harvey. Compare that to Eddy, Mcqualter, Raph, Jones, Ray, Armitage, Geary, Dempster and Polo.

The truth is the exact opposite to what you've said - if Ross Lyon had the 2004-05 list at his disposal, there is no doubt in the world he would have taken them to a flag. He would've instilled the defensive hardness that would've gotten us over the line in those prelims vs Port and Sydney, where we lead at 3 qtr time in both games but got run over the top of.

Imagine in '09 or '10 if we could replace Mcqualter with Hamill, Raph with Voss, Aussie Jones with Eddy, R Harvey with Armitage, Guerra with Polo, Heath Black with Geary, and Gehrig with Dempster. I can't believe some people really think Lyon had a better list at his disposal than Thomas. The '04-'05 list was the best list we've ever had, But GT blew it with his lack of match-day tactical nous and negligence toward keeping the list fit and uninjured.

FACT:
RL is our second greatest coach, in terms of on-field success anyway.

If you want to measure it by other means, then it can be debated. But if you're going purely by on-filed success, there can be no argument.

EXACTLY!

Why is this even being debated!

Lyon is a brilliant coach who invents game plans the rest of the competition follow!

The strongest list the club ever had in it's entire history in 2004-2005 due to a draft bonanza and we didn't even make a Grand Final due to mismanagement and poor decision making!

Anyone could have coached that team to a Preliminary Final, ANYONE!

Brilliant coaches get the best out of their list in September as well as in June. RL lacked leadership and definitely lacked brilliance. The bubble was a good concept but in the end it wasn't enough. RL was good, but not brilliant. Unfortunately his leadership and his coaching let us down. Paul Roos and Leigh Matthews were the ones that the rest of the competition followed and even Terry Wallace tinkered with the flood and the press as early as '99/2000. Lyon's coaching is not revolutionary. RL falls way short of being brilliant at the moment.

If you reckon the '04-'05 team underperformed and that anyone could have coached that team to a preliminary, then by that logic you'd be pretty confident that the Suns will be finalists soon. With GCFC's draft bonanza and their senior stars, they should be playing in prelims in 2014/2015 no matter who is coaching them. Of course Melbourne will be winning semifinals next September also.