INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

The place to discuss issues with administrators and moderators. Suggestions welcome. All bans will be posted here and the banning appeals process will be held in this forum.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
BackFromUSA
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4639
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:38am
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 506 times

INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463502Post BackFromUSA »

Mods have received feedback from some vocal posters that it's inconsistent to prevent posters using abusive language to each other, whilst having the freedom (within the limitations of the swearing and offensive behaviour rules) to ridicule and abuse people unconnected to the site.

There is a current of thought among these posters (and not necessarily the mods) that the increased vigilance around abuse of other posters in the updated rules should thus be extended to cover abusive language of third parties unrelated to the forum. This could cover players, Saints or otherwise, officials, media people or anyone else involved with footy.

To be a workable policy it would also probably have to extend to abusive language or descriptions of all third parties, even those with no connection to the site and include all forums except the Animal Enclosure.

As we are continuing to be consultative with the Saintsational community, we seek your input (for a few days) to discover whether or not a majority of posters agree or disagree with an extension of the zero abuse tolerance policy to third parties unrelated to the site.

Please put your thoughts in this thread.


AwayInUSA no longer ... have based myself back in Melbourne for a decade of Saintsational Success (with regular trips back to the USA)

"Saintsational Player Sponsor 2007 - 2018"
plugger66
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 50626
Joined: Mon 26 Feb 2007 8:15pm
Location: oakleigh

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463503Post plugger66 »

I am completely lost. Can you give an example of what you mean?


User avatar
BackFromUSA
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4639
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:38am
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 506 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463509Post BackFromUSA »

Under current rules this is NOT allowed:

"Poster A is absolute rubbish. His / her post is a complete load of brainless stupidity, The forum is dying because of this idiot."

Under current rules this is allowed:

"Player A is absolute rubbish. He has the intelligence of an ant and adds nothing to the team. A complete waste of space."

Should it be?

(apologies that the quality of my abuse is not up to others lofty standards)


AwayInUSA no longer ... have based myself back in Melbourne for a decade of Saintsational Success (with regular trips back to the USA)

"Saintsational Player Sponsor 2007 - 2018"
st.byron
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10598
Joined: Tue 14 Jun 2005 7:04pm
Location: North
Has thanked: 1011 times
Been thanked: 1055 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463511Post st.byron »

For example, you can't call someone a s*** head. "St.Byron, You're a s*** head" or "Byron is a s*** head" would be rule breaches and incur a warning.

But for e.g. "Eddie McGuire is a total s*** head" or "Clint Jones is a totally useless piece of s*** and should never pull on a Saints jumper again" or "Clint Jones should be taken out the back and shot, he's a waste of space" - these are all fine because they refer to third parties not on the forum.

Is there any interest amongst posters to extend the ban on abusive language to not being able to use abuse in reference to non-posters?

Is that clear?


plugger66
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 50626
Joined: Mon 26 Feb 2007 8:15pm
Location: oakleigh

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463516Post plugger66 »

BackFromUSA wrote:Under current rules this is NOT allowed:

"Poster A is absolute rubbish. His / her post is a complete load of brainless stupidity, The forum is dying because of this idiot."

Under current rules this is allowed:

"Player A is absolute rubbish. He has the intelligence of an ant and adds nothing to the team. A complete waste of space."

Should it be?

(apologies that the quality of my abuse is not up to others lofty standards)

Thanks. i get it now. I think calling our players names like retards and spastics should not be allowed. matter of fact I dont think anyone should be called that. Its a Saints fan forum but posters get more protection than the players we come on here to support. Now that is a bit weird IMO.


User avatar
dragit
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13047
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2010 11:56am
Has thanked: 605 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463517Post dragit »

BackFromUSA wrote: To be a workable policy it would also probably have to extend to abusive language or descriptions of all third parties, even those with no connection to the site and include all forums except the Animal Enclosure.
I think this is a terrible idea personally…

Occasionally this type of "colourful" abuse goes too far… but we don't want a completely beige site surely?

I take umbrage to Montagna being called a selfish, downhill skier or Tom Lee being called a complete spud… but I would prefer to counter it in the thread than issue warnings and potential bans

We already have strict rules around racism, sexism, swearing & now abusing each other… surely we don't want commentator X is a complete nuffie outlawed?

If we are thinking about more drastic changes to the posting guidelines, I think we definitely need to see voting… A few vocal people complaining does not equal what most people want.


User avatar
dragit
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13047
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2010 11:56am
Has thanked: 605 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463526Post dragit »

I hate some of the stuff that I hear from our supporters about our players when I go to the football, but that's life.

Redeemer has obviously gone way over the top on CJ this week, but surely no-one takes this stuff seriously?

Ignoring ridiculous posts is much easier than trying to censor everything.


User avatar
BackFromUSA
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4639
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:38am
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 506 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463527Post BackFromUSA »

We are not advocating it. Just putting it out for discussion rather than be accused of not listening to the will of the community.


AwayInUSA no longer ... have based myself back in Melbourne for a decade of Saintsational Success (with regular trips back to the USA)

"Saintsational Player Sponsor 2007 - 2018"
User avatar
dragit
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13047
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2010 11:56am
Has thanked: 605 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463528Post dragit »

BackFromUSA wrote:We are not advocating it. Just putting it out for discussion rather than be accused of not listening to the will of the community.
No probs, understood cheers.


User avatar
asiu
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10188
Joined: Thu 08 Apr 2010 8:11pm
Has thanked: 1274 times
Been thanked: 899 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463537Post asiu »

what about the blind cheating maggots in the game day
or in post game threads ?
... the next opposition sniper who takes out one of our players behind play ?
... the next brownbagging pencil pusher who says 'Let em rot' ?

Sport is sanctified War in the modern environment for the supporter ... controlled release of pent up tension 'n aggression in a safe environment.
... remove the 'pressure valve' at your peril ... imo


Image
.name the ways , thought manipulates the State of Presence away.

.tipara waranta kani nina-tu.
SainterK
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 21057
Joined: Thu 14 Aug 2008 9:53pm
Location: Melb

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463543Post SainterK »

Do you think players read SS?

I worry what some stuff could do to their head.

I heard stuff on here contributed to a former player having a tough time.

We have the benefit of being anonymous, but the abuse unleashes on a very real target.

I'm uncomfortable with some of it personally.

Call me beige...I don't care


plugger66
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 50626
Joined: Mon 26 Feb 2007 8:15pm
Location: oakleigh

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463547Post plugger66 »

SainterK wrote:Do you think players read SS?

I worry what some stuff could do to their head.

I heard stuff on here contributed to a former player having a tough time.

We have the benefit of being anonymous, but the abuse unleashes on a very real target.

I'm uncomfortable with some of it personally.

Call me beige...I don't care

Based on experience i doubt any read it but im sure a few friends and family do. Doubt it would have any effect though.


User avatar
dragit
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13047
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2010 11:56am
Has thanked: 605 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463550Post dragit »

SainterK wrote:Do you think players read SS?

I worry what some stuff could do to their head.

I heard stuff on here contributed to a former player having a tough time.

We have the benefit of being anonymous, but the abuse unleashes on a very real target.

I'm uncomfortable with some of it personally.

Call me beige...I don't care
Maybe there is a line that can be drawn around serious abuse, but players should just not be on here unless they are willing to hear the good/bad/ugliest opinions on them as players…

If you want the quiet life without constant judgement, you shouldn't become a professional sportsman.

Players are constantly critiqued in mass media, so what is said on a fan forum should be of little significance really…


User avatar
Enrico_Misso
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11662
Joined: Tue 13 Jun 2006 12:11am
Location: Moorabbin Chapter of The Royal Society of Hagiographers
Has thanked: 315 times
Been thanked: 720 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463566Post Enrico_Misso »

st.byron wrote:For example, you can't call someone a s*** head. "St.Byron, You're a s*** head" or "Byron is a s*** head" would be rule breaches and incur a warning.

But for e.g. "Eddie McGuire is a total s*** head" or "Clint Jones is a totally useless piece of s*** and should never pull on a Saints jumper again" or "Clint Jones should be taken out the back and shot, he's a waste of space" - these are all fine because they refer to third parties not on the forum.

Is there any interest amongst posters to extend the ban on abusive language to not being able to use abuse in reference to non-posters?

Is that clear?
Surely it would be easy to prove in a court of law that Eddie McGuire is a Total S***head?


The rest of Australia can wander mask-free, socialise, eat out, no curfews, no zoning, no police rings of steel, no illogical inconsistent rules. 
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
User avatar
desertsaint
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10281
Joined: Sun 27 Apr 2008 2:02pm
Location: out there
Has thanked: 181 times
Been thanked: 675 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463573Post desertsaint »

Principle of Q'uo wrote:what about the blind cheating maggots in the game day
or in post game threads ?
... the next opposition sniper who takes out one of our players behind play ?
... the next brownbagging pencil pusher who says 'Let em rot' ?

Sport is sanctified War in the modern environment for the supporter ... controlled release of pent up tension 'n aggression in a safe environment.
... remove the 'pressure valve' at your peril ... imo
The giraffe sees things from a higher plane.
Some shout at clouds politely, some with venom. The clouds don't hear. Should we be hurt on their behalf?


"The starting point of all achievement is desire. "
User avatar
asiu
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10188
Joined: Thu 08 Apr 2010 8:11pm
Has thanked: 1274 times
Been thanked: 899 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463574Post asiu »

:)

was just wondering that about Bye in the other thread.
Bye has feelings too.
... is Bye offended by being branded useless.

but at least the Human released some of that pent up stress n tension.
... the cat will be glad.


Image
.name the ways , thought manipulates the State of Presence away.

.tipara waranta kani nina-tu.
User avatar
stinger
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 38126
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:06pm
Location: Australia.

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463635Post stinger »

so if i call a child rapist or a woman beater a mongrel dog or a waste of space, that's going to be considered abusive and cop a warning...give me a break...or are we just talking about the footy forum...and not the general..


...imho this place is getting to be like a kindergarten.....already you give warnings ...well maybe only sometimes...to posters who say s***...when i see that word on every other forum i visit...with not a word of complaint......what are we becoming????


abuse of saints footballers should however be curtailed..imho...i know the damage that this site in particular did to one former player......i would support toning down that sort of abuse....


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"

However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
User avatar
borderbarry
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6676
Joined: Mon 19 Apr 2004 11:22pm
Location: Wodonga

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463715Post borderbarry »

It is a pity this was not considered a couple of years ago when Raph Clarke was playing. I was disgusted with a lot of the posters at that time. It does not seem to be as bad now.

i hope you are considering extending this to umpires?

<Barry, just to clarify. The Mods are not as a group advocating this proposal. We would all have our personal opinions about it but the thread has been created at the request of posters expressing their concern about third party abuse or about the inconsistency in the rules between abuse of those connected to the site and those that aren't.

It's intended as a means to find out how forumites feel about the issue and if the rules around abuse should be extended. Any extension will be the outcome of a clear majority of posters wanting an extension.>


saintspremiers
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 25303
Joined: Tue 01 Feb 2005 4:25pm
Location: Trump Tower
Has thanked: 142 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463729Post saintspremiers »

Very very silly idea and would ruin the forum. That's a big no from me!


i am Melbourne Skies - sometimes Blue Skies, Grey Skies, even Partly Cloudy Skies.
User avatar
Cairnsman
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7377
Joined: Thu 16 Jun 2005 10:38pm
Location: Everywhere
Has thanked: 189 times
Been thanked: 276 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463784Post Cairnsman »

I think the occasional outburst and rant on here or at the footy is one thing but the continual use of Information Technology to deliberately and repeatedly abuse and harass in a hostile manner is cyberbullying.

Do the Cyberbullying laws discriminate in the way our rules do?

If poster 'X' takes a dislike to a player and decides to wage a campaign against that player, then poster 'X' could be waging the same campaign against that player on many other social media sites as well.

Threads and posts being generated about CJ that are abusive and hostile are becoming more frequent with the run-on inviting the pack-mentality to join in the abuse and hostility.

I wonder if we continue to allow such discrimination in our rules, whether will we create a community that protects and promotes Cyberbullying against certain individuals. Does it matter who they?

Kosi and Raph used to be on the receiving end of relentless cyberbullying as defined by the cyberbullying laws, however, prior to the current board rules and moderation policies they were at least afforded some support and defense by community minded posters interjecting in a way that would no get you banned.

Interesting debate and an even more interesting public consultation process as Simon has me on ignore and won't be able to consider my contribution.


st.byron
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10598
Joined: Tue 14 Jun 2005 7:04pm
Location: North
Has thanked: 1011 times
Been thanked: 1055 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463794Post st.byron »

Cairnsman wrote:I
Kosi and Raph used to be on the receiving end of relentless cyberbullying as defined by the cyberbullying laws, however, prior to the current board rules and moderation policies they were at least afforded some support and defense by community minded posters interjecting in a way that would no get you banned.

A couple of questions. I'm not sure you could call the posts about Kosi and Raph cyberbullying if they never read them. Is that within the definition of cyber bullying?
I can certainly remember Kosi and Raph copping it but where does criticism cross the line into cyber bullying? And is it still bullying if you don't know if the person it's about reads it?

Second, can you elaborate on how the current rules and moderation policies prevent posters expressing their views in opposition to criticism or abuse of players? People aren't allowed to abuse other posters, but can still strongly disagree.


User avatar
dragit
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13047
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2010 11:56am
Has thanked: 605 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463797Post dragit »

Cairnsman wrote: Threads and posts being generated about CJ that are abusive and hostile are becoming more frequent with the run-on inviting the pack-mentality to join in the abuse and hostility.
I think this is largely a myth… TBH.
From memory it has only been one or two posters who have gone out of bounds on Clint, the rest of the contributions have been about his football.
Saying you want a player dropped or delisted is not abuse or hostile… surely?
That said, I am happy to see the small amount of really nasty personal abuse directed at players removed, it's absolutely unnecessary and does little for the forum. I think there were probably 2 posts in the recent CJ thread that would qualify.


mr six o'clock
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4233
Joined: Fri 17 Nov 2006 1:05am
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 227 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463798Post mr six o'clock »

Disadvantageous dam copulater ....... OK ! :)

Useless mother f@#$%^ ......... Not OK ! :(

Or am i being silly ?


In red white and black from 73
User avatar
Cairnsman
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7377
Joined: Thu 16 Jun 2005 10:38pm
Location: Everywhere
Has thanked: 189 times
Been thanked: 276 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463819Post Cairnsman »

st.byron wrote:
Cairnsman wrote:I
Kosi and Raph used to be on the receiving end of relentless cyberbullying as defined by the cyberbullying laws, however, prior to the current board rules and moderation policies they were at least afforded some support and defense by community minded posters interjecting in a way that would no get you banned.

A couple of questions. I'm not sure you could call the posts about Kosi and Raph cyberbullying if they never read them. Is that within the definition of cyber bullying?
I can certainly remember Kosi and Raph copping it but where does criticism cross the line into cyber bullying? And is it still bullying if you don't know if the person it's about reads it?

Second, can you elaborate on how the current rules and moderation policies prevent posters expressing their views in opposition to criticism or abuse of players? People aren't allowed to abuse other posters, but can still strongly disagree.
Before I answer your question I'd like to ask you a question, have you read and understood the cyberbullying laws referenced in our rules? Have you considered your legal obligations and risks as administrators and moderators with regards to cyberbullying?


st.byron
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10598
Joined: Tue 14 Jun 2005 7:04pm
Location: North
Has thanked: 1011 times
Been thanked: 1055 times

Re: INPUT DESIRED ON 3RD PARTY ABUSE

Post: # 1463898Post st.byron »

Cairnsman wrote:
Before I answer your question I'd like to ask you a question, have you read and understood the cyberbullying laws referenced in our rules? Have you considered your legal obligations and risks as administrators and moderators with regards to cyberbullying?

I hadn't read them no and am not aware that being a voluntary anonymous moderator on an anonymous football fan forum has any legal obligations at all. Wouldn't have thought I have legal obligations different to anyone else on the forum.

Now I have read the cyberbullying info referenced in our rules, I find this to be the most pertinent :

"What does cyberbullying look like?

Being sent mean or hurtful text messages from someone you know or even someone you don’t know
Getting nasty, threatening or hurtful messages through social networking sites like Facebook and Twitter, or through sites where people can ask / answer questions like
Formspring or Internet forums
People sending photos and videos of you to others to try and embarrass or hurt you
People spreading rumours about you via emails or social networking sites or text messages
People trying to stop you from communicating with others
People stealing your passwords or getting into your accounts and changing the information there
People setting up fake profiles pretending to be you, or posting messages or status updates from your account"


The only one I think could have any relevance to things written on SS is "People spreading rumours about you via emails or social networking sites or text messages".
I suppose you could argue that someone writing derogatory comments about Clint Jones falls into this category, but it seems a pretty long bow to me. Clint Jones probably doesn't read this forum. Who knows? And does saying that he's ****ing useless and should be taken out the back and shot constitute a rumour? Or is it just the personal opinion of a much frustrated and disappointed supporter?
And if that does constitute cyber bullying, then any derogatory, abusive or nasty stuff written anywhere on the internet is cyber-bullying...it really goes to the guts of the level of abuse that is considered the norm in our culture...

So I'm still interested in if you think comments about players constitutes cyber-bullying as it seems pretty grey to me. And exactly what are your main issues with the new rules and moderation policies?


Post Reply