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desertsaint wrote:No point rewriting history. we all know almost eveyone agreed Petracca was the best talent that year, but Paddy was top three and fitted our needs. We were desperate and tall forward values that year hit a bitcoin bubble - it was a mistake, but one most clubs in our situation would have made. our drafting stuff up was earlier - in the lyon and early watters era - trading picks for the likes of lee and waters, losing lynch, and drafting no one of merit.
Only reason we didn’t pick petracca was he failed the phyc test.
We were 100% to pick him but when he failed that we went Paddy...might not mean much but there is a fat head that used to play for the dogs that looked like a hamburger in WA sat night...just saying
Drake Huggins wrote:Agreed, Saynta. I don't for a minute believe he's not trying his best. It's just his best is nowhere near good enough. He wouldn't cut his nose off to spite his face. My initial lack of respect comes from his behaviour I witnessed when I went to an Essendon pleasant Sunday morning at Windy Hill in early 1985. The numbers were limited and it was mainly players and close mates. No women bar the "entertainment". Imagine having that sort of turn today!
I got a ticket via Glen Hawker, as my ex wife was best friends with Glen's fiancé (they never made it to the altar) Needless to say, their guard was down. Having made the mistake of mentioning that I was a saints fan, Carey and Van der Haar proceeded to chop into me about it. The 1978 "animals" game was a particular focus. I witnessed, first hand, what Essendon's players thought of St.Kilda as a football club. Elshaug joined in the mocking, making some particularly personal comments about the players and the place in general. I'd thought he might have been a saints supporter as he was a Bentleigh resident. Due to the peculiar zoning laws, he ended up at Melbourne, then Essendon and later Collingwood. I remember Blight's contempt of St,Kilda throughout his career, even when he coached us. This smacks of something similar. If you don't respect the joint, can you ever be as committed as someone who does?
Sheedy wasn't there, but a few mentioned his hatred of St.Kilda stemmed from the late 60's when we were the only team tougher and dirtier than Richmond was. It's why he doesn't like Carlton either. Both let that sniper have it, targeting him at every opportunity. His hatred of the saints was part of Essendon's culture. Timid used to ring Sheedy for coaching advice from Him, openly ignoring his assistants, who were fully aware of what Timid was doing. Apparently Timid confided in his former mentor that the club was a shambles. Ironically, one of those assistants was Alistair Clarkson.
As for the people who claim he is highly regarded in the industry, I can assure you he isn't. Vazelos posted something similar. He is seen as a nice bloke, but that's all. Vazelos hinted that he'll be dumped at the end of the year. If that does happen, I doubt you'll see him in a senior recruiting role again. I know enough people in the recruiting game to know he's not rated very highly. He's had seven years. He's failed. We are not the envy of the competition in terms of recruiting or player development, as was our aim. In fact, the opposition sees us as failures. Elshaug will bob up somewhere. He is nothing if not a survivor. Over to you Peter Summers.
I have a vague recollection of a former essendon player being drafted by us who then retired rather than play with the saints. i think that player was Elshaug.
Don't know about Elshaug but have it from the horse's mouth that when Frank Marchesani was given the Khyber from Carlton they offered to re-house him at their retirement home (St.K. f.c.) but he chose the VFA as payment was more secure! Lo and behold the club he went to (not sure which) was declared insolvent during his first year there!
whiskers3614 wrote:Don't know about Elshaug but have it from the horse's mouth that when Frank Marchesani was given the Khyber from Carlton they offered to re-house him at their retirement home (St.K. f.c.) but he chose the VFA as payment was more secure! Lo and behold the club he went to (not sure which) was declared insolvent during his first year there!
Drake Huggins wrote:Agreed, Saynta. I don't for a minute believe he's not trying his best. It's just his best is nowhere near good enough. He wouldn't cut his nose off to spite his face. My initial lack of respect comes from his behaviour I witnessed when I went to an Essendon pleasant Sunday morning at Windy Hill in early 1985. The numbers were limited and it was mainly players and close mates. No women bar the "entertainment". Imagine having that sort of turn today!
I got a ticket via Glen Hawker, as my ex wife was best friends with Glen's fiancé (they never made it to the altar) Needless to say, their guard was down. Having made the mistake of mentioning that I was a saints fan, Carey and Van der Haar proceeded to chop into me about it. The 1978 "animals" game was a particular focus. I witnessed, first hand, what Essendon's players thought of St.Kilda as a football club. Elshaug joined in the mocking, making some particularly personal comments about the players and the place in general. I'd thought he might have been a saints supporter as he was a Bentleigh resident. Due to the peculiar zoning laws, he ended up at Melbourne, then Essendon and later Collingwood. I remember Blight's contempt of St,Kilda throughout his career, even when he coached us. This smacks of something similar. If you don't respect the joint, can you ever be as committed as someone who does?
Sheedy wasn't there, but a few mentioned his hatred of St.Kilda stemmed from the late 60's when we were the only team tougher and dirtier than Richmond was. It's why he doesn't like Carlton either. Both let that sniper have it, targeting him at every opportunity. His hatred of the saints was part of Essendon's culture. Timid used to ring Sheedy for coaching advice from Him, openly ignoring his assistants, who were fully aware of what Timid was doing. Apparently Timid confided in his former mentor that the club was a shambles. Ironically, one of those assistants was Alistair Clarkson.
As for the people who claim he is highly regarded in the industry, I can assure you he isn't. Vazelos posted something similar. He is seen as a nice bloke, but that's all. Vazelos hinted that he'll be dumped at the end of the year. If that does happen, I doubt you'll see him in a senior recruiting role again. I know enough people in the recruiting game to know he's not rated very highly. He's had seven years. He's failed. We are not the envy of the competition in terms of recruiting or player development, as was our aim. In fact, the opposition sees us as failures. Elshaug will bob up somewhere. He is nothing if not a survivor. Over to you Peter Summers.
I have despised that club for years and nothing you told me surprises me.
They really rate themselves down there, I know Luke Beveridge personally and that story that came out when he got the job about he and Matthew Mahoney belting Mark Harvey & Dean Wallis is all true....they picked on the Demons boys and ran like cowards when they realised they bit off more than they could chew.... Both Mahoney and Beveridge could seriously handle themselves & the Bomber Bully crew were out on force but they didnt go far....
Elshaug's work at St Kilda is not being touted by his colleagues as anything strong, that I can assure you..
As I said above the 1978 "ANIMALS GAME' is one of my most enjoyable memories from over half a century of supporting the saints.
Big Carl, Sarau, Sidebottom, Colling, O,Dea and from memory, Robbie Muir scared the Bummers shitless.
The fallout though probably cost us a chance at a flag. The press heaped the kind of vitriol on us that they are now heaping on our three cricketers.
Her's a report on the game.
"5. ROUND 7, 1978: St Kilda 17.11 (113) d Essendon 16.11 (107)
There was violence aplenty throughout the game, with the smaller Essendon team suffering at the hands of the rough ‘n’ tough Saints. In a fiery speech after the game, Essendon president Colin Stubbs referred to his opponents as “animals”, a speech much reported in the aftermath. It was a game of bone-crunching hits, with St Kilda’s hardmen Carl Ditterich and Garry Sidebottom to the fray. Bomber rover Terry Cahill was on the receiving end of one from Big Carl and stopped breathing when he swallowed his tongue. He was revived, and survived. St Kilda threatened legal action against Stubbs for his “animals” call. Essendon threatened legal action against Ditterich.
i remember as GT got the boys up to speed
he made strong references to the need for our Club to sort that mongrel club out
as an early stepping stone to earning back some respect
that eight game run
which included winning the Wizard Plate
by the vagries of life and the fixture
we played the same four sides twice
though in the reverse order during the season proper
game 4 (?) we played em again
thats my fave game of the era
.name the ways , thought manipulates the State of Presence away.
desertsaint wrote:No point rewriting history. we all know almost eveyone agreed Petracca was the best talent that year, but Paddy was top three and fitted our needs. We were desperate and tall forward values that year hit a bitcoin bubble - it was a mistake, but one most clubs in our situation would have made. our drafting stuff up was earlier - in the lyon and early watters era - trading picks for the likes of lee and waters, losing lynch, and drafting no one of merit.
Only reason we didn’t pick petracca was he failed the phyc test.
We were 100% to pick him but when he failed that we went Paddy...might not mean much but there is a fat head that used to play for the dogs that looked like a hamburger in WA sat night...just saying
It was a very, very big part of it.
"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
Drake Huggins wrote:Agreed, Saynta. I don't for a minute believe he's not trying his best. It's just his best is nowhere near good enough. He wouldn't cut his nose off to spite his face. My initial lack of respect comes from his behaviour I witnessed when I went to an Essendon pleasant Sunday morning at Windy Hill in early 1985. The numbers were limited and it was mainly players and close mates. No women bar the "entertainment". Imagine having that sort of turn today!
I got a ticket via Glen Hawker, as my ex wife was best friends with Glen's fiancé (they never made it to the altar) Needless to say, their guard was down. Having made the mistake of mentioning that I was a saints fan, Carey and Van der Haar proceeded to chop into me about it. The 1978 "animals" game was a particular focus. I witnessed, first hand, what Essendon's players thought of St.Kilda as a football club. Elshaug joined in the mocking, making some particularly personal comments about the players and the place in general. I'd thought he might have been a saints supporter as he was a Bentleigh resident. Due to the peculiar zoning laws, he ended up at Melbourne, then Essendon and later Collingwood. I remember Blight's contempt of St,Kilda throughout his career, even when he coached us. This smacks of something similar. If you don't respect the joint, can you ever be as committed as someone who does?
Sheedy wasn't there, but a few mentioned his hatred of St.Kilda stemmed from the late 60's when we were the only team tougher and dirtier than Richmond was. It's why he doesn't like Carlton either. Both let that sniper have it, targeting him at every opportunity. His hatred of the saints was part of Essendon's culture. Timid used to ring Sheedy for coaching advice from Him, openly ignoring his assistants, who were fully aware of what Timid was doing. Apparently Timid confided in his former mentor that the club was a shambles. Ironically, one of those assistants was Alistair Clarkson.
As for the people who claim he is highly regarded in the industry, I can assure you he isn't. Vazelos posted something similar. He is seen as a nice bloke, but that's all. Vazelos hinted that he'll be dumped at the end of the year. If that does happen, I doubt you'll see him in a senior recruiting role again. I know enough people in the recruiting game to know he's not rated very highly. He's had seven years. He's failed. We are not the envy of the competition in terms of recruiting or player development, as was our aim. In fact, the opposition sees us as failures. Elshaug will bob up somewhere. He is nothing if not a survivor. Over to you Peter Summers.
I have a vague recollection of a former essendon player being drafted by us who then retired rather than play with the saints. i think that player was Elshaug.
Is my memory correct DH
Unfortunately yes, saynta. It's one thing to bad mouth the club in private, but he publicly bagged the club and vowed he'd never play for us. It echoed what I'd heard at Windy Hill several years before. I must admit, those two incidents coloured my opinion of him. It's ironic that he turned out to be so useless when "trying" to help us. I know his ambition was to coach at senior AFL level. Nothing wrong with that. He gave up after being repeatedly rejected for over 15 years. That tells you what the industry really thinks of him. He confused his ambition with is ability. How anyone who openly disrespects your organisation the way he did gets hired in such an important decision is beyond belief. It was the poor man's version of the Blight fiasco.
"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
desertsaint wrote:No point rewriting history. we all know almost eveyone agreed Petracca was the best talent that year, but Paddy was top three and fitted our needs. We were desperate and tall forward values that year hit a bitcoin bubble - it was a mistake, but one most clubs in our situation would have made. our drafting stuff up was earlier - in the lyon and early watters era - trading picks for the likes of lee and waters, losing lynch, and drafting no one of merit.
Only reason we didn’t pick petracca was he failed the phyc test.
We were 100% to pick him but when he failed that we went Paddy...might not mean much but there is a fat head that used to play for the dogs that looked like a hamburger in WA sat night...just saying
It was a very, very big part of it.
I believe the view was he didnt see himself playing for the saints after initial contract either
Plenty have done poorly on the psych tests and have gone on to great careers. What would you do if a young Wane Carey, Tony Lockkett or Nathan Fyfe tested poorly? Would you pick them on demonstrated ability? It depends on exactly what you are testing for, the strength of the test, its validity etc. interpretation is critical. No one "fails" a psych test in the traditional sense. It's meant to uncover aspects of the persons. If you have doubts about someone or a particular issue, you should try a different test to see if the initial result is consistent and valid, or explore and check supposed weaknesses in what you see on field.
Psych. Testing is far from an exact science, although it has come on in leaps and bounds in the past few decades. Anyone who excludes someone on the results of the test alone is incompetent. That's where good recruiters in any industry really earn their money.
As for the rumour he didn't want to play for us, I call shenanigans. Any young man would be thrilled to be the number one pick and realise his AFL dream. Plenty want to play for a particular club, but very few get that chance. You've only got to look on the faces of draftees on the night to see most of them are just rapt to be picked. I'm sure he would've been fine with coming to us.
Pity he didn't.
"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
Drake Huggins wrote:Plenty have done poorly on the psych tests and have gone on to great careers. What would you do if a young Wane Carey, Tony Lockkett or Nathan Fyfe tested poorly? Would you pick them on demonstrated ability? It depends on exactly what you are testing for, the strength of the test, its validity etc. interpretation is critical. No one "fails" a psych test in the traditional sense. It's meant to uncover aspects of the persons. If you have doubts about someone or a particular issue, you should try a different test to see if the initial result is consistent and valid, or explore and check supposed weaknesses in what you see on field.
Psych. Testing is far from an exact science, although it has come on in leaps and bounds in the past few decades. Anyone who excludes someone on the results of the test alone is incompetent. That's where good recruiters in any industry really earn their money.
As for the rumour he didn't want to play for us, I call shenanigans. Any young man would be thrilled to be the number one pick and realise his AFL dream. Plenty want to play for a particular club, but very few get that chance. You've only got to look on the faces of draftees on the night to see most of them are just rapt to be picked. I'm sure he would've been fine with coming to us.
Pity he didn't.
Petracca knew he would be playing AFL, so he was always going to be thrilled, just not so with the Saints. Elshaugh by all accounts is very "old School" in his assessment of what the right personal qualities are in a recruit. Probably not so good when trying to relate or understand the current generation, it would do my head in. i know one or two young fellas who had a little trouble relating to trout. MAybe its them, then again......
Am I correct in recalling that Elshaugh was at the club in the Rossy days and they got rid of him, but brought him back to help him out as he had some personal problems? Wife left him or got sick or something like that?
whiskers3614 wrote:Don't know about Elshaug but have it from the horse's mouth that when Frank Marchesani was given the Khyber from Carlton they offered to re-house him at their retirement home (St.K. f.c.) but he chose the VFA as payment was more secure! Lo and behold the club he went to (not sure which) was declared insolvent during his first year there!
Teflon wrote:The guys a cut lunch commando and you only need to listen to his analysis to know he’s as shallow as a bird bath
Time to go
We just have to demand excellence - really we are on notice that this mediocrity management can’t continue and it is so far
President, Coach, footy boss, recruitment, assistants etc ALL up for trade
Every player bar Billing’s, Acres, Carlisle, Ross plus 2 new boys drafted last year are for sale
I said at start of last season (was howled down) that this side needed to drink longer from the draft well for some A grade talent rather than papering over cracks to win games and just miss finals. Here we are 12 months on and now people are seeing where we are really at
If we're going down this path - I largely agree with your list of keepers but I'd sell Ross before Jack Steven (we've craved outside speed forever so, can't exactly sell the only one we already have) and would definitely keep Membrey (we basically have zero forwards who can take a mark without him).
Drake Huggins wrote:Agreed, Saynta. I don't for a minute believe he's not trying his best. It's just his best is nowhere near good enough. He wouldn't cut his nose off to spite his face. My initial lack of respect comes from his behaviour I witnessed when I went to an Essendon pleasant Sunday morning at Windy Hill in early 1985. The numbers were limited and it was mainly players and close mates. No women bar the "entertainment". Imagine having that sort of turn today!
I got a ticket via Glen Hawker, as my ex wife was best friends with Glen's fiancé (they never made it to the altar) Needless to say, their guard was down. Having made the mistake of mentioning that I was a saints fan, Carey and Van der Haar proceeded to chop into me about it. The 1978 "animals" game was a particular focus. I witnessed, first hand, what Essendon's players thought of St.Kilda as a football club. Elshaug joined in the mocking, making some particularly personal comments about the players and the place in general. I'd thought he might have been a saints supporter as he was a Bentleigh resident. Due to the peculiar zoning laws, he ended up at Melbourne, then Essendon and later Collingwood. I remember Blight's contempt of St,Kilda throughout his career, even when he coached us. This smacks of something similar. If you don't respect the joint, can you ever be as committed as someone who does?
Sheedy wasn't there, but a few mentioned his hatred of St.Kilda stemmed from the late 60's when we were the only team tougher and dirtier than Richmond was. It's why he doesn't like Carlton either. Both let that sniper have it, targeting him at every opportunity. His hatred of the saints was part of Essendon's culture. Timid used to ring Sheedy for coaching advice from Him, openly ignoring his assistants, who were fully aware of what Timid was doing. Apparently Timid confided in his former mentor that the club was a shambles. Ironically, one of those assistants was Alistair Clarkson.
As for the people who claim he is highly regarded in the industry, I can assure you he isn't. Vazelos posted something similar. He is seen as a nice bloke, but that's all. Vazelos hinted that he'll be dumped at the end of the year. If that does happen, I doubt you'll see him in a senior recruiting role again. I know enough people in the recruiting game to know he's not rated very highly. He's had seven years. He's failed. We are not the envy of the competition in terms of recruiting or player development, as was our aim. In fact, the opposition sees us as failures. Elshaug will bob up somewhere. He is nothing if not a survivor. Over to you Peter Summers.
You do make a very good and pointed argument, although I remember that someone put up the evolution of Hawthorn's list leading up to 2008, they also had quite some failures too.
I don't consider that we have had more, or less success with drafting (recently), as it is so subjective in nature, however am starting to agree with the development aspect. This has been obvious with almost our whole team having gone backwards to some degree. Nicky D and Monty suggested that form can turn in a week last night, I only hope this is form
Drake Huggins wrote:Agreed, Saynta. I don't for a minute believe he's not trying his best. It's just his best is nowhere near good enough. He wouldn't cut his nose off to spite his face. My initial lack of respect comes from his behaviour I witnessed when I went to an Essendon pleasant Sunday morning at Windy Hill in early 1985. The numbers were limited and it was mainly players and close mates. No women bar the "entertainment". Imagine having that sort of turn today!
I got a ticket via Glen Hawker, as my ex wife was best friends with Glen's fiancé (they never made it to the altar) Needless to say, their guard was down. Having made the mistake of mentioning that I was a saints fan, Carey and Van der Haar proceeded to chop into me about it. The 1978 "animals" game was a particular focus. I witnessed, first hand, what Essendon's players thought of St.Kilda as a football club. Elshaug joined in the mocking, making some particularly personal comments about the players and the place in general. I'd thought he might have been a saints supporter as he was a Bentleigh resident. Due to the peculiar zoning laws, he ended up at Melbourne, then Essendon and later Collingwood. I remember Blight's contempt of St,Kilda throughout his career, even when he coached us. This smacks of something similar. If you don't respect the joint, can you ever be as committed as someone who does?
Sheedy wasn't there, but a few mentioned his hatred of St.Kilda stemmed from the late 60's when we were the only team tougher and dirtier than Richmond was. It's why he doesn't like Carlton either. Both let that sniper have it, targeting him at every opportunity. His hatred of the saints was part of Essendon's culture. Timid used to ring Sheedy for coaching advice from Him, openly ignoring his assistants, who were fully aware of what Timid was doing. Apparently Timid confided in his former mentor that the club was a shambles. Ironically, one of those assistants was Alistair Clarkson.
As for the people who claim he is highly regarded in the industry, I can assure you he isn't. Vazelos posted something similar. He is seen as a nice bloke, but that's all. Vazelos hinted that he'll be dumped at the end of the year. If that does happen, I doubt you'll see him in a senior recruiting role again. I know enough people in the recruiting game to know he's not rated very highly. He's had seven years. He's failed. We are not the envy of the competition in terms of recruiting or player development, as was our aim. In fact, the opposition sees us as failures. Elshaug will bob up somewhere. He is nothing if not a survivor. Over to you Peter Summers.
You do make a very good and pointed argument, although I remember that someone put up the evolution of Hawthorn's list leading up to 2008, they also had quite some failures too.
I don't consider that we have had more, or less success with drafting (recently), as it is so subjective in nature, however am starting to agree with the development aspect. This has been obvious with almost our whole team having gone backwards to some degree. Nicky D and Monty suggested that form can turn in a week last night, I only hope this is form
