Sack the Coach

[Con Gorozidis]

Whether the rebuild started in 2013 or 2014 seems trivial.
What matters is the list in 2018 looks average and we haven't been in finals 7 years.

[Drake Huggins]

I suppose that is the overall point I'm trying to make.

[parkeysainter]

We could have easily slipped into the finals (2012 - 1st year under the angry midget) and even the last couple of years. A 12-10 record is a pretty good season.

2018 will be the year...or not.

[BackFromUSA]

Simple equation. We play finals or he gets sacked. And even then scrapping into 8th on % and then losing the elim by 100 points would still have to question things
1. We have no injuries
2. Rebuild started 2011. YES completely from scratch so the normal 5 years not enough but its 7 now should be finals side and with all positions filled with talent/50+ gamers theres no excuse.

So who replaces him?

The rebuild started in 2014 under Richardson.

Lyon and Watters were still trying to get to finals in their years.

We have been rebuilding for 4 years only.

That makes this season year 5.

The target has always been 2020 and beyond for premierships.

I’m not looking for an argument but in April 2013 Waters declares we were in rebuild mode and that same year we made a big move in the rebuild by trading away our number one ruckman to Hawthorn to really kick off the rebuild.

The AFL and 90% of the sports news declared 2013 a rebuild year for St Kilda. I won’t argue on this because it is a Fact backed by immense amount of media article you can find in a simple google search.

Were you at the 2014 season launch?
Remember this being said - “The vision is to ensure the club is "admired as a competition leader in recruiting, player development and coaching" by 2018.”

That my friend is why some are pissed off when we start season 2018 as unadmired so much to the point with a massive war chest and 2 top 10 draft picks we can’t lure a single A grade player to the club - nobody except our own fans think we have a great coach or coaching staff.Find me one article where we are touted as league leaders in player development.

The plan revealed was 2014-2018 and we win a flag no dramas by the LATEST 2018 - even Saint Nick said the same thing that night.

Now the goal posts are pushed back to 2020. As if no one remembers that day and the hype of the big strategic plan.
The coach/staff/recruiters/players have not taken us to the edge of repeatable grand final success.
This my fellow saint lover is why Some of us are pissed off and tired of being told to shut up and sit down when we were told lies too and instead of being held to account everyone gets a new fecking contract and all’s well!


When will the club stand up and tell is the Truth that they stuffed up the coaching the player development and the recruitment for the most part so that we are actually 5-6 years away right now if ever, from a top 4 finish


For you to get on here and spew the same rubbish lies as the team makes me sick!! It seeems like you are being gutless! We failed! We didn’t make it! But no one can admit they were wrong because then they would have to be accountable!
Yes we have decent players. But being ok won’t win it all. I just don’t know why a person who knows the club history would come on here and lie and say 2020 was always the goal post? Is the Club controlling what you say? Surely you know many us were at the big strategic plan launch?

When you repeat these club lies it disgusts me.

Yes we decided we needed to rebuild in April 2013 but we could not act until end of season 2013 with them trade of McEvoy and drafting of 3 young guns - Billings, Acres and Dunstan plus Savage from that trade all of whom played for us in 2014 for the first time and that was the start of our rebuild.

As for how we are viewed in 2018 ... it is March and there is another 22 games and 6 months before that can be asssessed.

I have been at every season launch and I clearly remember the 5 year rebuild that actually covered 7 seasons - a fact I commented on at the time. Like most fans you obviously missed that the target for a premiership was 2020. Respect / Finals was the aim for 2018. We may be a year behind on all this OR our core of youngsters may deliver this year.

Did you read the strategic document? It was sent to members. I read it. I didn’t rely on just what was said / was heard at one event.

History would say that they are more likely to deliver finals next year based on average games plsyed and number of 100 game players.

[David-Lee]

Look for all my b!tching and moaning like a school girl I do think we will make the 8 - we will finish in 8th. But not win a final and unless AR does a Damien Hardwick and the penny drops that the game plan ha to change- I don’t know if we will see a final this decade or two because he will burn the next three years and what talent we have will be close to done by end of his contract 2020 leaving the young ones stuck in rut, undeveloped or gone elsewhere- I mean c’mon. There’s been great talent at every club. You don’t get to afl level unless you’re pretty damn good. Luck with injury and being coached by staff with their own talents and skills turns the young guns to machine guns. I just don’t see it. It’s not a blame the coach thing it’s our whole system. But we can be unstable, we can’t rock the boat! Being middle of the road is just Fine- we will keep playing it safe just like we have since we think we lost our love Lyon and now we are too afraid to love again.

[BackFromUSA]

Simple equation. We play finals or he gets sacked. And even then scrapping into 8th on % and then losing the elim by 100 points would still have to question things
1. We have no injuries
2. Rebuild started 2011. YES completely from scratch so the normal 5 years not enough but its 7 now should be finals side and with all positions filled with talent/50+ gamers theres no excuse.

So who replaces him?

The rebuild started in 2014 under Richardson.

Lyon and Watters were still trying to get to finals in their years.

We have been rebuilding for 4 years only.

That makes this season year 5.

The target has always been 2020 and beyond for premierships.

Thank you for making complete sense and putting across the facts.

I don't even know why are talking about this anyway.

Some people will believe anything. BFUSA, saying the rebuild is in its fifth years is just plain wrong. According to your reckoning, we started rebuilding, a year after we got Jack Billings, Blake Acres and Luke Dunstan who were all part of our publicly stated rebuild. It started in 2012. Stop distorting history to suit your own views and leading the gullible up the garden path. BTW our publicly stated aim was to be in serious contention by 2018 and having won one BY 2020, not in that year specifically. The club has failed on a number of fronts in its strategic plans. I doubt we'll be in contention this year, we didn't land a big fish, we're hopelessly in debt and our list has more holes in it than a sieve. We allegedly copied Geelong's blueprint for success. The only difference is they have high quality, competent staff, which is reflected in the way they play and their successes over the past decade. Check the facts.

Billings, Acres and Dunstan were drafted at the end of 2013 for the 2014 season.

They were start of the rebuild.

This was the first season that Richardson coached.

They have played for 4 years.

Stop distorting the facts.

Even then you admit we've had 5 years of rebuilding. You can't even count, let alone distort the facts. Damning yourself with your own "facts" . The rebuild began after Watters first year when we realised it needed to be a complete renovation. We made a partial start when Elshyte started at the end of 2011. Remember pelican's famous spreadsheet, the map of the future? At least I have actual experience of what went on. You obviously have no clue about this one. PM me if you want the facts.

Prior to 2014 the club brought in mature talent to make us somewhat competitive rather than bring in lower end drafted kids (because all the top talent was going north) that would get smashed without any hard bodies around them and conceded that we needed to hit the bottom and trade to get multiple early draft picks to start the real rebuild with 3 picks in the top 20 picks in multiple years. That was the plan.

Even you stated that Billings, Acres and Dunstan were the real start of the rebuild.

They started in 2014.

2014 - year 1
2015 - year 2
2016 - year 3
2017 - year 4

We have not yet played a game in 2018 for Premiership points.

This is Year 5 in a 7 year plan.

The clubs talk 5 year plans because they know fans can’t wait and the current drafting / trading system does not allow faster rebuilds.

Geelong Hawthorn and Swans all benefitted from Gold Coast and GWS draft concession as it disallowed other teams to bring in talent to challenge.

Now this is STARTING to even out.

Geelong and Sydney still maintain strong home ground advantages.

Hawthorn still has Clarkson.

They are topping up big time to stay up the top.

This strategy was perfect for where they were.

We could have tried that but our decline started a few seasons before (2011/12) and we were positioned incorrectly at the free agency introduction with a full salary cap - unable to attract more talent and in fact having to lose some because we couldn’t match the $s.

I never said it started with Billings, Acres and Dunstan. It was your mistake I was pointing out by your suggestion it did in 2014. Those three were drafted in 2013. Fact. You don't start your rebuild during the season after. You start in the draft and trade period. I've also stated clearly in several threads that the rebuild started in 2012 (again at the draft and trade period where we were active according to Pelchen's plan and excel spreadsheet). So it began with the acquisition of Lee, Hickey, Wright, White, Saunders and Murdoch. Looks a lot like the start of a rebuild to me. Correct that, I know it was the beginning. Get rid of a Goddard to improve your drafting position and give yourself more picks, which you use on kids and a couple of speculative ones who are still relatively young.

Watters realised after his first year that the list was cooked and that the renovation needed to begin. Please check facts before posting blatant mistakes. Even when pointed out and explained to you, you have persisted. So for the last time, the rebuild started in earnest in 2012. It is know 2018, so we have had six years of rebuilding. Apparently we still are, meaning this will be the seventh year of the rebuild. We have not advanced much, if at all in that time. We have missed out on picking players suitable to our needs on more occasions than I care to mention here. SMS has summed it up in another thread. Our trading has been reasonable and Sinclair and Marshall look the goods coming off the rookie list. When you compare our haul to the top teams it's actually embarrassing, given the strength of our drafting position in that time. It's why we are where we are. Mid to lower table and treading water.

2011 - end of season. Lyon leaves. Elshyte takes over from John Peake as recruiting manager.

2012 - drafted and traded for Hickey, Lee, Wright, White, Saunders and Murdoch. Brilliant start from the flathead despite having picks 12, 13, 24 & 25. Of that lot we have two left, neither of whom is in our best 22.

2013 - Billings, Dunstan and Acres. Drafted in 2013, not 2014.

2014 - paddy, McKenzie, Goddard. Two blokes who are one bad injury away from retirement and another who appears completely lost.

2015 - traded for Jake, got Gresh. The only true win for this recruiting lot so far.

2016 - Long, Battle and Phillips. It would be an understatement to say the future is unclear. IMO only Battle excites at this stage.

2017 - Coffield, Clark, Clavarino and Paton. The first three will make it. Not sure about Paton

So let's count those years again. Six of them. In the seventh now. Six preseasons to correct mistakes, develop,game styles, plans and players. Recruit players who fill requirements for the team's way of playing. I know you want to be positive about all this, but we should be doing better than what we've shown post 2016.

I feel your pain and anguish but disagree with your interpretation of events and definitions of years.

Firstly when a player is drafted in NOVEMBER it is not for the season that finished in August / September but rather for the following year that starts in March. When you list players drafted in a year then they play only the next year.

Surely you are not also counting 2018 as a current year in your assessment - we haven’t even played a game yet!

I maintain that the true rebuild was from 2014 by gaining 3 selections in the top 20 draft choices in the first non compromised draft.

I can tell you that Goddard chose to go. We didn’t want to lose him. We couldn’t afford to match his salary and by letting him go it was felt we could get 2 players in with a couple of years of footy already into them for the 2013 season.

Now let’s look at 2012 draft where we gained Hickey and Lee for 12/13. So what did we miss out on?

12 Kristian Jaksch Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney Traded from St Kilda
13 Jesse Lonergan Launceston TSL Gold Coast Traded from St Kilda, free agency compensation pick (Goddard)
14 Aidan Corr Northern Knights TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney Traded from Melbourne, Greater Western Sydney uncontracted player compensation pick (Scully)
15 Taylor Garner Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup North Melbourne
16 Jackson Thurlow Launceston TSL Geelong
17 Josh Simpson East Fremantle WAFL Fremantle
18 Brodie Grundy Sturt SANFL Collingwood Traded from West Coast

Yes we missed out on Grundy but we had McEvoy and Stanley and Hickey was gettable and Grundy no guarantee where he would land as he was touted top 10. Not sure there was much talent in that draft besides that.

I could go on and on and disprove things but here is the essence of what was happened.

- Lyon called us cooked at the end of 2011 and new coach / recruiter stuck with a compromised draft and no quality available.
- Watters said he could re-heat us in 2012 and almost made final. Goddard walked. Draft was weak. Hickey and Lee in as best bet.
- Wheels fell of early 2013 and club and Watters realised that the only way forward was a full rebuild. Salary cap was still too high!
- At seasons end Dal and Big Ben sacrificed for Savage and 3 high picks in national draft - Billings, Dunstan and Acres. Great move
- Then 2014 was the first season of the true rebuild. Richardson’s first season as coach. With a crap list we had to bottom out.

2014 - 4 wins 60.8%
2015 - 6.5 wins 78.4%
2016 - 12 wins 95.7% in an overachieving season given easier draw
2017 - 11 wins 96.9% with a harder draw and Riewoldt, Dempster and Montagna no longer elite.
2018 - no games played and the strategic plan calls for 14 wins+. Possible??? Yes. Probable??? No. But let’s hope.

Certainly not falling a long way short from predicted trajectory.

Forgive me for believing we are headed in the right direction.

Not every draft pick or trade will work out but as we enter the fifth season of the rebuild I believe we can continue to improve.

The element that stuffed up our plan more than anything was the massive leap in Total Player Payments that was unforeseen and allowed clubs to keep their stars just as we were positioned to pounce.

However our organic growth may mean we develop rather than buy in our next elite stars.

[CQ SAINT]

I suppose that is the overall point I'm trying to make.

The point gets lost in all the insulting diatribe and relentless justification of your opinion. Eventually 2011 becomes 2012 and 6 years becomes 5.3.

White Austin Roberton
Savage Carlisle Coffield
Sinclair Billings Steele
Acres Bruce Membrey
Gresham McCartin Battle

Marshall Ross Clark

Newnes Dunstan Webster Lonie

Longer Long Rice Paton Clavarino

With the exception of Clarke and Coffield who are shoe ins, last 3 are yet to debut.

Our 2020 best Elshyte 27 and the fruits of our rebuild.

None of them were here in 2011.

Add Steven, Gaff and a top 10 pick in 2019 and who cares about finals this year.

The club overstated the Strategic Plan but the recruitment has been much better than you give credit for.

[Drake Huggins]

We finished 11th last year. We haven't made finals for 7 years and are unlikely to this year. We still don't have any elite players on our list. We're going gangbusters. The prosecution rests. I wish it was different, but the reality is we're nowhere near it. Groundhog day.

[takeaway]

We finished 11th last year. We haven't made finals for 7 years and are unlikely to this year. We still don't have any elite players on our list. We're going gangbusters. The prosecution rests. I wish it was different, but the reality is we're nowhere near it. Groundhog day.

The prosecution rests. Thank god for that. The jury is now out and we should have a verdict by 2021. Excellent points made by the defence, BFUSA.

[saintspremiers]

AR should be sacked if we don’t make the 8 this year IMO.

I think the OP was taking the piste sacking him now.

[whiskers3614]

Perhaps the coach(es) have over-performed!

Just because the club gave us a mission statement that said we'd have a flag by 2020 doesn't necessarily mean Richardson has failed.A realistic look at the list would show we currently have less genuine A grade talent than even most bottom sides.The last two seasons have produced reasonable results whilst pumping games into young blokes and waiting for their transition into a more experienced and cohesive unit.Maybe the current game plan is all that is achievable at this stage of the squad's development.

I'm prepared to give coaches the benefit of the doubt!

[CQ SAINT]

Perhaps the coach(es) have over-performed!

Just because the club gave us a mission statement that said we'd have a flag by 2020 doesn't necessarily mean Richardson has failed.A realistic look at the list would show we currently have less genuine A grade talent than even most bottom sides.The last two seasons have produced reasonable results whilst pumping games into young blokes and waiting for their transition into a more experienced and cohesive unit.Maybe the current game plan is all that is achievable at this stage of the squad's development.

I'm prepared to give coaches the benefit of the doubt!

As coach, if you play to your strengths you will find you have short and exciting tenure.

How is Ross Lyon doing now? Id give him one more year before I sentence him, in all fairness. So I guess Id would give Richo 2 more.

[samuraisaint]

It is pretty obvious that we can't claim 2013 as a rebuilding year because we played the whole year with our side which predominantly represented the club in finals from 2004-2011.
In 2012 we just missed out on % and should have drawn with Collingwood at the G if not for an incorrect free kick their way paid in front of their social club which robbed us of a goal and the precious 2 points.
In 2013 in round 22 most of the remaining Saints from the 2004-2011 era retired and the draft at the end of that year was the beginning of the rebuild. That makes it 4 years in my book.
A lot of our younger players have been playing in the shadows of Roo, Joey, Shinna, Schneids and Gilbo, so this is really the first year where they will be expected to take some ownership, with Armo and Steven the leaders. Gilbo will be there to take some of the heat, but really he is there for depth and experience now.
Expect a few wins in the firsst 11 rounds before the side settles, and 11/12 wins for the year.
Has to be about developing the nucleus of the next generation in 2018 and seeing if Paddy, Goddard, and Freeman can handle the rigours of footy at the highest level, and seeing who out of some of our fringe players will still be playing when we do play finals again.
It looks as though the guys we drafted last year are beauties and Gresham and Sinclair are great. Marshall looks like he could be something too. We have the players for a very solid team unit, but we lstill ack that real A+ midfielder. And until we have that we won't represent the club in finals.

[BackFromUSA]

It is pretty obvious that we can't claim 2013 as a rebuilding year because we played the whole year with our side which predominantly represented the club in finals from 2004-2011.
In 2012 we just missed out on % and should have drawn with Collingwood at the G if not for an incorrect free kick their way paid in front of their social club which robbed us of a goal and the precious 2 points.
In 2013 in round 22 most of the remaining Saints from the 2004-2011 era retired and the draft at the end of that year was the beginning of the rebuild. That makes it 4 years in my book.
A lot of our younger players have been playing in the shadows of Roo, Joey, Shinna, Schneids and Gilbo, so this is really the first year where they will be expected to take some ownership, with Armo and Steven the leaders. Gilbo will be there to take some of the heat, but really he is there for depth and experience now.
Expect a few wins in the firsst 11 rounds before the side settles, and 11/12 wins for the year.
Has to be about developing the nucleus of the next generation in 2018 and seeing if Paddy, Goddard, and Freeman can handle the rigours of footy at the highest level, and seeing who out of some of our fringe players will still be playing when we do play finals again.
It looks as though the guys we drafted last year are beauties and Gresham and Sinclair are great. Marshall looks like he could be something too. We have the players for a very solid team unit, but we lstill ack that real A+ midfielder. And until we have that we won't represent the club in finals.

Wish I just wrote this.

My prediction is 10-12 wins this year with near to the youngest list in the competition and on some weeks we will be the youngest 22 playing or the least experienced (in terms of AFL games) playing that week.

Richardson is doing a fine job developing a team.

Agreed we are one star midfielder short of deep finals.2 short of being a serious threat.

Not getting Kelly hurt.

Must go all out for Sloan and Gaff if the current list does not develop our own elite gun midfielders.

[Drake Huggins]

We finished 11th last year. We haven't made finals for 7 years and are unlikely to this year. We still don't have any elite players on our list. We're going gangbusters. The prosecution rests. I wish it was different, but the reality is we're nowhere near it. Groundhog day.

The prosecution rests. Thank god for that. The jury is now out and we should have a verdict by 2021. Excellent points made by the defence, BFUSA.

Indeed, takeaway. He made some excellent points for the defence, which were, unfortunately fatally flawed and typical of the sophist style arguments the defence runs. Not facts but irrelevant arguments and splitting hairs and manipulating information. Any good defence barrister will school you in this. It is way more comforting for the delusional to take the easy road and explanation. It takes courage to face facts and do something about your situation. Ask any addict. We are currently in another cycle of failure and denial. You guys remind me of a drug rehab group I run. Eventually, the ones who lose their addiction face facts. The others cycle in and out of their delusions, doomed until an inevitable fate of death or dysfunction.

We will have an answer by the end of 2018. As Doctor PHIL says, "the best indicator of future performance is past performance." Any organisational psychologist and psychiatrist will tell you this. As the Pythons used to sing, " How sweet to be an idiot, so sweet."

PS. Everything the club tells you is the truth. The truth. THE TRUTH. Now give us your donations and membership fees. THE TRUTH. We will make the finals in 2018. We will win a flag by 2020. THe truth. The truth. Now give us that BSB and account number. We need another 4-5 million to pay our coaches, recruiters and physical conditioning staff to prepare us to fail. We are doing a FANTASTIC job. We are on track. Believe us. Follow the sheeple. We're doing it to you again, but you can't help yourself can you? We'll keep stringing you along until we've exhausted your patience and wallet. Then we'll move interstate and get the AFL and media rights to take you place. Stuff your history. Stuff your passion, commitment and contribution. We're off to make our situation better.
Yours Faithfully
Matt, Simon, AR, JC, flathead, Wayne Hughes and Matt Hornsby. Sponsored by Gilligan.

[BackFromUSA]

We finished 11th last year. We haven't made finals for 7 years and are unlikely to this year. We still don't have any elite players on our list. We're going gangbusters. The prosecution rests. I wish it was different, but the reality is we're nowhere near it. Groundhog day.

The prosecution rests. Thank god for that. The jury is now out and we should have a verdict by 2021. Excellent points made by the defence, BFUSA.

Indeed, takeaway. He made some excellent points for the defence, which were, unfortunately fatally flawed and typical of the sophist style arguments the defence runs. Not facts but irrelevant arguments and splitting hairs and manipulating information. Any good defence barrister will school you in this. It is way more comforting for the delusional to take the easy road and explanation. It takes courage to face facts and do something about your situation. Ask any addict. We are currently in another cycle of failure and denial. You guys remind me of a drug rehab group I run. Eventually, the ones who lose their addiction face facts. The others cycle in and out of their delusions, doomed until an inevitable fate of death or dysfunction.

We will have an answer by the end of 2018. As Doctor PHIL says, "the best indicator of future performance is past performance." Any organisational psychologist and psychiatrist will tell you this. As the Pythons used to sing, " How sweet to be an idiot, so sweet."

PS. Everything the club tells you is the truth. The truth. THE TRUTH. Now give us your donations and membership fees. THE TRUTH. We will make the finals in 2018. We will win a flag by 2020. THe truth. The truth. Now give us that BSB and account number. We need another 4-5 million to pay our coaches, recruiters and physical conditioning staff to prepare us to fail. We are doing a FANTASTIC job. We are on track. Believe us. Follow the sheeple. We're doing it to you again, but you can't help yourself can you? We'll keep stringing you along until we've exhausted your patience and wallet. Then we'll move interstate and get the AFL and media rights to take you place. Stuff your history. Stuff your passion, commitment and contribution. We're off to make our situation better.
Yours Faithfully
Matt, Simon, AR, JC, flathead, Wayne Hughes and Matt Hornsby. Sponsored by Gilligan.

The only one not telling the truth here is you. You distort documented facts. You have your agenda because you hate Trout because Elshagh replaced you with other experts that he valued more? We are starting Year 5 of the strategic plan. It wasn’t a guarantee. It was a plan with objectives. Objectives not promises. So far the club is on track. Only one recruiting objective short with no big fish this year. Instead we got Clarke and Coffield (which would have been the cost of Kelly) and I am comfortable with that outcome. I shall judge the strategic plan once it comes to an end which was always stated as 2020. I believe the plan is solid and will bare fruit. You can believe differently.

[Darth Vader]

We finished 11th last year. We haven't made finals for 7 years and are unlikely to this year. We still don't have any elite players on our list. We're going gangbusters. The prosecution rests. I wish it was different, but the reality is we're nowhere near it. Groundhog day.

The prosecution rests. Thank god for that. The jury is now out and we should have a verdict by 2021. Excellent points made by the defence, BFUSA.

Indeed, takeaway. He made some excellent points for the defence, which were, unfortunately fatally flawed and typical of the sophist style arguments the defence runs. Not facts but irrelevant arguments and splitting hairs and manipulating information. Any good defence barrister will school you in this. It is way more comforting for the delusional to take the easy road and explanation. It takes courage to face facts and do something about your situation. Ask any addict. We are currently in another cycle of failure and denial. You guys remind me of a drug rehab group I run. Eventually, the ones who lose their addiction face facts. The others cycle in and out of their delusions, doomed until an inevitable fate of death or dysfunction.

We will have an answer by the end of 2018. As Doctor PHIL says, "the best indicator of future performance is past performance." Any organisational psychologist and psychiatrist will tell you this. As the Pythons used to sing, " How sweet to be an idiot, so sweet."

PS. Everything the club tells you is the truth. The truth. THE TRUTH. Now give us your donations and membership fees. THE TRUTH. We will make the finals in 2018. We will win a flag by 2020. THe truth. The truth. Now give us that BSB and account number. We need another 4-5 million to pay our coaches, recruiters and physical conditioning staff to prepare us to fail. We are doing a FANTASTIC job. We are on track. Believe us. Follow the sheeple. We're doing it to you again, but you can't help yourself can you? We'll keep stringing you along until we've exhausted your patience and wallet. Then we'll move interstate and get the AFL and media rights to take you place. Stuff your history. Stuff your passion, commitment and contribution. We're off to make our situation better.
Yours Faithfully
Matt, Simon, AR, JC, flathead, Wayne Hughes and Matt Hornsby. Sponsored by Gilligan.

The only one not telling the truth here is you. You distort documented facts. You have your agenda because you hate Trout because Elshagh replaced you with other experts that he valued more? We are starting Year 5 of the strategic plan. It wasn’t a guarantee. It was a plan with objectives. Objectives not promises. So far the club is on track. Only one recruiting objective short with no big fish this year. Instead we got Clarke and Coffield (which would have been the cost of Kelly) and I am comfortable with that outcome. I shall judge the strategic plan once it comes to an end which was always stated as 2020. I believe the plan is solid and will bare fruit. You can believe differently.

BFUSA, everything you’ve said makes sense and I agree with the points you’ve made. Yet I feel totally unenthused about the coming year. Something about the playing group, the game style, the coach leaves me uninspired. We just seem so vanilla, as a team, a coaching group and a club. When I compare this to the start of 2004 it’s chalk and cheese. Is this just me or do others feel this?

[BackFromUSA]

We finished 11th last year. We haven't made finals for 7 years and are unlikely to this year. We still don't have any elite players on our list. We're going gangbusters. The prosecution rests. I wish it was different, but the reality is we're nowhere near it. Groundhog day.

The prosecution rests. Thank god for that. The jury is now out and we should have a verdict by 2021. Excellent points made by the defence, BFUSA.

Indeed, takeaway. He made some excellent points for the defence, which were, unfortunately fatally flawed and typical of the sophist style arguments the defence runs. Not facts but irrelevant arguments and splitting hairs and manipulating information. Any good defence barrister will school you in this. It is way more comforting for the delusional to take the easy road and explanation. It takes courage to face facts and do something about your situation. Ask any addict. We are currently in another cycle of failure and denial. You guys remind me of a drug rehab group I run. Eventually, the ones who lose their addiction face facts. The others cycle in and out of their delusions, doomed until an inevitable fate of death or dysfunction.

We will have an answer by the end of 2018. As Doctor PHIL says, "the best indicator of future performance is past performance." Any organisational psychologist and psychiatrist will tell you this. As the Pythons used to sing, " How sweet to be an idiot, so sweet."

PS. Everything the club tells you is the truth. The truth. THE TRUTH. Now give us your donations and membership fees. THE TRUTH. We will make the finals in 2018. We will win a flag by 2020. THe truth. The truth. Now give us that BSB and account number. We need another 4-5 million to pay our coaches, recruiters and physical conditioning staff to prepare us to fail. We are doing a FANTASTIC job. We are on track. Believe us. Follow the sheeple. We're doing it to you again, but you can't help yourself can you? We'll keep stringing you along until we've exhausted your patience and wallet. Then we'll move interstate and get the AFL and media rights to take you place. Stuff your history. Stuff your passion, commitment and contribution. We're off to make our situation better.
Yours Faithfully
Matt, Simon, AR, JC, flathead, Wayne Hughes and Matt Hornsby. Sponsored by Gilligan.

The only one not telling the truth here is you. You distort documented facts. You have your agenda because you hate Trout because Elshagh replaced you with other experts that he valued more? We are starting Year 5 of the strategic plan. It wasn’t a guarantee. It was a plan with objectives. Objectives not promises. So far the club is on track. Only one recruiting objective short with no big fish this year. Instead we got Clarke and Coffield (which would have been the cost of Kelly) and I am comfortable with that outcome. I shall judge the strategic plan once it comes to an end which was always stated as 2020. I believe the plan is solid and will bare fruit. You can believe differently.

BFUSA, everything you’ve said makes sense and I agree with the points you’ve made. Yet I feel totally unenthused about the coming year. Something about the playing group, the game style, the coach leaves me uninspired. We just seem so vanilla, as a team, a coaching group and a club. When I compare this to the start of 2004 it’s chalk and cheese. Is this just me or do others feel this?

I also feel we enter 2018 with no hype or excitement. After our first 2 games our FIXture is tough - really tough. I look at our FIXture and think we could start 3 or 4 from the first 10 games yet still win 10-12 for the season. I think we are trying to keep expectations real for this year. If we are 5 or 6 wins from the first 10 games then I shall be getting very excited.

[saintspremiers]

Also remember our 2014 plan was to win MULTIPLE premierships from 2020.

Finnis actually stated this point I think in 2016 at Moorabbin Town Hall at a members night I attended

[desertsaint]

seems the only ones upset are those that believed the plan would actually bear fruit and have now determined it won't. 18 clubs make plans. Four or five or six years ago every club would have planned to be playing finals in 2018. Ten of them will fail. We're likely, and always were likely, to be one of them. simple maths, without adding our own history of mediocrity. just enjoy the footy. a lot less stressful without expectation. go saints!

[Rocket]

The knock I have on Richo is his conservative nature. Compare him to Beveridge who builds a team where players must be able to play in multiple positions. Richo is plain Jane. Same thing re his selection policy; rarely takes a risk

A few more moves on the whiteboard
- Swing Membrey to CHB, when getting sat on forward (Sicily, Gunston, Jeremy H role)
- Play Battle. This kid has all the attributes, just needs game time
- Carlisle forward. Rarely happens
- Wright or Weller into back pocket to play lock down roles. Both have the discipline to sit on a man and beat
- Rice can use he ball off half back. Better than Webster who butchers one or two every game. Give him a go
- Billings to Half back. Quarterback role
- Bruce to CHB

I’m not saying every move will work but would love to see more creativity from Richo.

He keeps it so one dimensional.

[Con Gorozidis]

Also remember our 2014 plan was to win MULTIPLE premierships from 2020.

Finnis actually stated this point I think in 2016 at Moorabbin Town Hall at a members night I attended

I definitely remember our plan was the be top 4 for five years straight.
Theory being you need to be up there consistently to win one.

[Con Gorozidis]

Where is white Winmar?

[Linton Lodger]

I agree with original post. Just so frustrating at the saints with coaching over a very long time. It was exciting under lyons becoz we could see a game style that worked. After lyons we had a search for new coach with panels and consultants etc etc and we still balls it up. Luke beveridge was right there, became a priemiership coach.. i think its the way of it at the saints.

What? Everybody whined about Lyon's gameplan and condemned him until 2009.

[Linton Lodger]

In an argument, its best to look at the undisputed facts.

These are some compelling undisputed facts noted by BFUSA:

2014 - 4 wins 60.8%
2015 - 6.5 wins 78.4%
2016 - 12 wins 95.7% in an overachieving season given easier draw
2017 - 11 wins 96.9% with a harder draw and Riewoldt, Dempster and Montagna no longer elite.
2018 - no games played and the strategic plan calls for 14 wins+. Possible??? Yes. Probable??? No. But let’s hope.

Last year we weren't quite good enough to play finals, too inconsistent within games and over the season (typical of a young list). Yet if our kicking for goal alone (the worst in the League) had been on par with the second worst (Melbourne), our young team which wasn't yet up to Finals standard, would have won 13 or 14 and played Finals.

So why are there calls for the Coach's head etc? Practice match form? The fact that we didn't get a gun Free Agent? Only Martin & Kelly were worth getting and they stayed put.