Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

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damienc
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Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712395Post damienc »

The simple answer is not much.

We were rusty, out of touch, misread the conditions, second to the ball on most occasions, played well below and I do mean well below what we are capable of.

There really is not much to be gleaned from this pre season competition despite what many naysayers are posting on this site.

Supporters get angry when we don't perform. That's to be expected. Saints supporters are desperate to see improvement, signs that we are going somewhere. So I sympathise and share your pain.

Round One is where we need to focus and all of the rounds after that. Obviously.

Focussing on the positives, Coffield and Clark were good…..really good gets. They both look they have what it takes.

But….and it’s a big but.

What is glaringly obvious is that we have no A grade superstar players. We have no Dylan Shiel or Dusty Martin or Nate Fyffe. Just plucking names out of the air.

And that is a problem and that is a handicap and that is going to seriously hamper our efforts to be big players in September.

Every premiership winner has at least one A grade superstar. We have none. We don’t have that player who can almost single handedly win a game for us off his own boot. Maybe overstating a little but you get my drift.

It is a critical deficiency and no amount of wallpapering over the cracks is going the change that reality.

Our A grade superstar retired last year and he had well and truly reached his use by date in terms of being a dominant superstar.

So, my expectations for 2018 are very much influenced by that sad fact.

I think we will be ok. At or near the final eight but until we can discover or recruit that genuine superstar quite frankly we don’t have a hope.

It’s not being negative, just realistic.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712404Post st.byron »

Don’t reckon having a superstar is as important as having a team who think and play cohesively and who know the heart and nuts of the coach. Looks to me like Richo is a bit of an ‘automatron’. Structure, strategy, form, values, tactics are all very well. But I don’t get much inspiration and heart from him. Like he’s trying to ‘organise’ the team rather than inspire them. I reckon ‘superstars’ are in every team. It’s the dynamic between the coach, players and club culture that brings it out, or not.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712406Post CQ SAINT »

Coffield and Clark will be best 22 by years end.
Savage Sinclair and Dunstan look set to continue to improve.
Paddy has the goods and just needs to avoid concussion.
Armo and Steven look fit.

Im happy with all of that.

If Billings Gresham and Bruce kick straighter and Membrey continues to shine, we will improve and push for the 8.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712409Post saynta »

damienc wrote:The simple answer is not much.

We were rusty, out of touch, misread the conditions, second to the ball on most occasions, played well below and I do mean well below what we are capable of.

There really is not much to be gleaned from this pre season competition despite what many naysayers are posting on this site.

Supporters get angry when we don't perform. That's to be expected. Saints supporters are desperate to see improvement, signs that we are going somewhere. So I sympathise and share your pain.

Round One is where we need to focus and all of the rounds after that. Obviously.

Focussing on the positives, Coffield and Clark were good…..really good gets. They both look they have what it takes.

But….and it’s a big but.

What is glaringly obvious is that we have no A grade superstar players. We have no Dylan Shiel or Dusty Martin or Nate Fyffe. Just plucking names out of the air.

And that is a problem and that is a handicap and that is going to seriously hamper our efforts to be big players in September.

Every premiership winner has at least one A grade superstar. We have none. We don’t have that player who can almost single handedly win a game for us off his own boot. Maybe overstating a little but you get my drift.

It is a critical deficiency and no amount of wallpapering over the cracks is going the change that reality.

Our A grade superstar retired last year and he had well and truly reached his use by date in terms of being a dominant superstar.

So, my expectations for 2018 are very much influenced by that sad fact.

I think we will be ok. At or near the final eight but until we can discover or recruit that genuine superstar quite frankly we don’t have a hope.

It’s not being negative, just realistic.
Ever since my junior days my coaches taught me that a champion team will always beat a team of champions.

We have had teams with 5 or 6 champions that never brought home the bacon. We never had depth. Now we do.

Have a little faith my friend.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712420Post skeptic »

I worry about the coaching to be honest...

A few including myself on here have been concerned about the conservative nature of team selections over the last year (if not longer, I forget)...

More notably a tendency to pick players that are “in” consistently and having a shorter leash on those that are pushing for games on the back ground of solid form at Sandy meaning many youngsters don’t rack games.

White seems unable to make the team despite generally playing well when he has been picked
Acres was in and out, in and out until he finally cemented his in the 22
Sinclair struggled to get opportunity until he completely cemented his spot early-mid season...

On the other hand you have someone like Weller who seemed to be gifted games despite being both injured and playing poorly
Longer who whilst has been good at times was not so dominant as to have definitively frozen out Hickey and Marshal
And even Webster and Gilbert who are really too inconsistent with what they produce seem more or less locks all the time compared to others

I’d like to see the opportunity passed around a lot more... good effort be rewarded more and average effort be punished. Force players to really fight to hold their spots


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712427Post Drake Huggins »

Have to agree, skeptic. Longer is a liability in the modern running game. We are literally a man down whenever he is on the ground. Let's hope Marshall and Hickey find their best form. It appears as though AR is determined to stick with the script of the past couple of years. Imagination, flair and tactics are not his strong points. What was worrying about the other night was not the result. It was that we looked just the same as last year. The treatment of certain players makes you wonder about our relatively poor record of player development. I can't help thinking White, Acres and McKenzie not be further along the improvement path under a different regime.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712436Post SaintPav »

Seeing same issues and patterns.

I'm concerned.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712437Post bigcarl »

The handling of Acres worries me. I look at him and see a potential match-winner. Richo looks at the same player and sees a half back flanker and maybe just an average one at that.

May not even grab a round 1 berth if he doesn't shine in our next game, sadly.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712438Post skeptic »

bigcarl wrote:The handling of Acres worries me. I look at him and see a potential match-winner. Richo looks at the same player and sees a half back flanker and maybe just an average one at that.

May not even grab a round 1 berth if he doesn't shine in our next game, sadly.
Half back flanker? Are we watching the same guy?


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712439Post Jacks Back »

bigcarl wrote:The handling of Acres worries me. I look at him and see a potential match-winner. Richo looks at the same player and sees a half back flanker and maybe just an average one at that.

May not even grab a round 1 berth if he doesn't shine in our next game, sadly.
Sadly (as I like him as a player) 8cres didn't do much at all the other night.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712442Post elizabethr »

bigcarl wrote:The handling of Acres worries me. I look at him and see a potential match-winner. Richo looks at the same player and sees a half back flanker and maybe just an average one at that.

May not even grab a round 1 berth if he doesn't shine in our next game, sadly.
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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712444Post bigcarl »

elizabethr wrote:
bigcarl wrote:The handling of Acres worries me. I look at him and see a potential match-winner. Richo looks at the same player and sees a half back flanker and maybe just an average one at that.

May not even grab a round 1 berth if he doesn't shine in our next game, sadly.
I'm glad you aren't in charge.
A battler at best.
We shall see


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712445Post samuraisaint »

saynta wrote:
damienc wrote:The simple answer is not much.

We were rusty, out of touch, misread the conditions, second to the ball on most occasions, played well below and I do mean well below what we are capable of.

There really is not much to be gleaned from this pre season competition despite what many naysayers are posting on this site.

Supporters get angry when we don't perform. That's to be expected. Saints supporters are desperate to see improvement, signs that we are going somewhere. So I sympathise and share your pain.

Round One is where we need to focus and all of the rounds after that. Obviously.

Focussing on the positives, Coffield and Clark were good…..really good gets. They both look they have what it takes.

But….and it’s a big but.

What is glaringly obvious is that we have no A grade superstar players. We have no Dylan Shiel or Dusty Martin or Nate Fyffe. Just plucking names out of the air.

And that is a problem and that is a handicap and that is going to seriously hamper our efforts to be big players in September.

Every premiership winner has at least one A grade superstar. We have none. We don’t have that player who can almost single handedly win a game for us off his own boot. Maybe overstating a little but you get my drift.

It is a critical deficiency and no amount of wallpapering over the cracks is going the change that reality.

Our A grade superstar retired last year and he had well and truly reached his use by date in terms of being a dominant superstar.

So, my expectations for 2018 are very much influenced by that sad fact.

I think we will be ok. At or near the final eight but until we can discover or recruit that genuine superstar quite frankly we don’t have a hope.

It’s not being negative, just realistic.
Ever since my junior days my coaches taught me that a champion team will always beat a team of champions.

We have had teams with 5 or 6 champions that never brought home the bacon. We never had depth. Now we do.

Have a little faith my friend.
I totally agree with this. In 1997 we had the fab four (Loewe, Burke, Winmar and Harvey) + the WASPs (Brown, Smith and Jones), and Everitt in the ruck. We lost Smith and Everitt on the eve of the finals, and then the week of the Grand Final Stewie Loewe's family member was hospitalized with a serious issue, and Winmar's Dad passed away the night before the game. But our bottom six players probably weren't up to it.

Same with the sides of 2009/2010 - with a bit of luck we could have won both of these, but we had players in the team who couldn't kick accurately but were 'role players'. Again, the bottom six players may have struggled to get a game almost anywhere else. But you can argue they got the best out of themselves. No Flag for us though.

Gresham, Billings, McCartin, Coffield or Clark could all become elite in time, time will tell.

My gripe with the game on Wednesday is that the forward line was so dysfunctional and I am not sure how it can be fixed before round 1. Marks inside 50 are often dropped or fumbled, we take too long getting it into the forward 50 so that by the time we do the forward line resembles the Tokyo subway system on Monday morning, and our conversion, even from within 40 metres of goal is still poor - someone posted 7/11 is our current ratio or something like that. They were all missing them on Wednesday night. I thought this was going to be focused on over the pre-season. If we can't kick straight against a side which finished bottom four last year, in a practice game under little pressure I'm cynical about our prospects come round 1. Still think we'll win our 11/12 games because we have the cattle to beat the bottom sides and the mid-tier sides at home, but I don't know whether we'll be able to play an attractive, cohesive brand of footy.

We'll know more after Thursday night's game against Melbourne at Case Fields. Hopefully we can see an improvement.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712446Post saintspremiers »

Remember the dickwads that run the AFL in all their stupidity sacrificed a JLT game for all teams for AFLX garbage. So the preseason final preperation is different from a normal year. Makes it hard to gauge form. The Casey game again is outdoors which is not ideal given we play 13 games inside and most others in protected big stadiums. Let’s hope the temps are moderate and wind not a big issue. Also we don’t know what team will be played. At least the lighting will be OK


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712447Post groupie1 »

Usually nothing, but I make a few observations:

- cannot afford to and deep enough not to need to carry useless footballers. Can't kick, can't mark... Gilbert and Wright
Gilbert hasn't taken a mark or kicked a ball straight since 2009.
- I'd give Marshall a chance to ruck full-time. Longer competes and is big, but... Marshall might prove more useful in a more mobile game
- I'd still pick the 3 talls forward; Membrey doing the running, and Bruce sharing ruck with Marshall, to get it a bit dynamic and unpredictable
- I'd only be playing Nathan Brown when he has an opponent to play on. Otherwise, he's probably superfluous (though he didn't do much wrong tonight and makes good decisions, the game is past him unless he has a monster to negate). Is it worth giving Logan a chance?
- I'd persist with anyone who has speed and execution skills, as long as possible. Ben Long, Acres, Coffield, Gresh, Hunter, obviously Billings... keep playin' 'em no matter what. We got plenty of grunters in Stevens (Koby), Armitage, Steele and Steven - all of whom I'd want to play together to get the ball... the known problem of outside skill needs to be considered urgency number 1.
- Not sure what to make of Mav Weller. Knowing how good he can be, is it worth having him tag a midfielder, just to try and get him going again? If he doesn't get moving, he'll not force selection.

What do people think?


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712448Post groupie1 »

saintspremiers wrote:Remember the dickwads that run the AFL in all their stupidity sacrificed a JLT game for all teams for AFLX garbage. So the preseason final preperation is different from a normal year. Makes it hard to gauge form. The Casey game again is outdoors which is not ideal given we play 13 games inside and most others in protected big stadiums. Let’s hope the temps are moderate and wind not a big issue. Also we don’t know what team will be played. At least the lighting will be OK
Totally agree. AFLX was completely unwatchable.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712449Post groupie1 »

groupie1 wrote:Usually nothing, but I make a few observations:

- cannot afford to and deep enough not to need to carry useless footballers. Can't kick, can't mark... Gilbert and Wright
Gilbert hasn't taken a mark or kicked a ball straight since 2009.
- I'd give Marshall a chance to ruck full-time. Longer competes and is big, but... Marshall might prove more useful in a more mobile game
- I'd still pick the 3 talls forward; Membrey doing the running, and Bruce sharing ruck with Marshall, to get it a bit dynamic and unpredictable
- I'd only be playing Nathan Brown when he has an opponent to play on. Otherwise, he's probably superfluous (though he didn't do much wrong tonight and makes good decisions, the game is past him unless he has a monster to negate). Is it worth giving Logan a chance?
- I'd persist with anyone who has speed and execution skills, as long as possible. Ben Long, Acres, Coffield, Gresh, Hunter, obviously Billings... keep playin' 'em no matter what. We got plenty of grunters in Stevens (Koby), Armitage, Steele and Steven - all of whom I'd want to play together to get the ball... the known problem of outside skill needs to be considered urgency number 1.
- Not sure what to make of Mav Weller. Knowing how good he can be, is it worth having him tag a midfielder, just to try and get him going again? If he doesn't get moving, he'll not force selection.

What do people think?
Sorry... forgot to add Dunstan in that mix of grunters


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712453Post Premium89 »

groupie1 wrote:Usually nothing, but I make a few observations:

- cannot afford to and deep enough not to need to carry useless footballers. Can't kick, can't mark... Gilbert and Wright
Gilbert hasn't taken a mark or kicked a ball straight since 2009.
- I'd give Marshall a chance to ruck full-time. Longer competes and is big, but... Marshall might prove more useful in a more mobile game
- I'd still pick the 3 talls forward; Membrey doing the running, and Bruce sharing ruck with Marshall, to get it a bit dynamic and unpredictable
- I'd only be playing Nathan Brown when he has an opponent to play on. Otherwise, he's probably superfluous (though he didn't do much wrong tonight and makes good decisions, the game is past him unless he has a monster to negate). Is it worth giving Logan a chance?
- I'd persist with anyone who has speed and execution skills, as long as possible. Ben Long, Acres, Coffield, Gresh, Hunter, obviously Billings... keep playin' 'em no matter what. We got plenty of grunters in Stevens (Koby), Armitage, Steele and Steven - all of whom I'd want to play together to get the ball... the known problem of outside skill needs to be considered urgency number 1.
- Not sure what to make of Mav Weller. Knowing how good he can be, is it worth having him tag a midfielder, just to try and get him going again? If he doesn't get moving, he'll not force selection.

What do people think?
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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712454Post groupie1 »

He gets the ball


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712455Post groupie1 »

24 disposals, 14 contested possessions and seven clearances - well over half of his possessions are contested.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712457Post bigcarl »

My gripe with the game on Wednesday is that the forward line was so dysfunctional and I am not sure how it can be fixed before round 1. Marks inside 50 are often dropped or fumbled, we take too long getting it into the forward 50 so that by the time we do the forward line resembles the Tokyo subway system on Monday morning
And then we get beaten on the counterpunch, the opposition taking advantage of a wide open field in front of them.

It's the old Ross Lyon rope-a-dope trick. We do all the attacking, make all the play, yet they benefit with an easy goal.

Nothing is more frustrating. It's like hitting every green in regulation then three putting.

You'd think we'd be awake up to it after all those years of Lyin'.

Not sure what the answer is. I guess you move it quicker and better into the forward line and maybe play an extra man in defence. Also, convert.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712458Post parkeysainter »

Come the first bounce in Rd 1, all this will be forgotten and JLT1 will be a distant memory.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712459Post CQ SAINT »

groupie1 wrote:24 disposals, 14 contested possessions and seven clearances - well over half of his possessions are contested.
I get what you mean but his path is usually cleared by the grunters and he uses breakaway speed and touch to clear the ball and accelerate away in an outside midfielder fashion. Most of his contested possesions are won this way. He also has quick hands but he isnt a true inside grunter.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712461Post Darth Vader »

The main thing I get from it is that not much has changed from last year.


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Re: Seriously. What can we take from JLT Game 1?

Post: # 1712464Post saintsRrising »

saynta wrote: Ever since my junior days my coaches taught me that a champion team will always beat a team of champions.

We have had teams with 5 or 6 champions that never brought home the bacon. We never had depth. Now we do.

.
Nice saying. But can you list a few AFL Grand Final teams that did not have a number of champions in them?

We have as I posted previously we have arguably the best depth we have ever had, except for say the sixties, BUT our top end is very very thin. Too thin.

Sure teams like the Tigers and Doggies have gotten up to grab some surprise flags. But they still had some elite talent. Doggies did it with some players having elite years though, and so that is the ray of hope for us.

We will not make Top 4, let alone a GF, unless we can have some of our players take the step to become elite of better.....even if they just can as a group do it in one season.

Currently:
Superstar: we have none. Few Premiership teams do not have one
Elite: Steven. We only have one. Again GF Winners will normally have a number.


If we are to have a Doggies like 2016 then you need say most of the below to have an elite year:
- Steven - body willing I am sure he will
- Armo - he can do it if his body lets him
- Billings - Probably the "potential' elite player on our list who I am most confident will be elite long-term
- Gresh
- Carlisle - we are paying big $$ for him to be elite. time to start rewarding that
- Membrey - This guy is silk and deadly when in the zone
- Ross - You will not win a flag without quality depth in the engine room of the midfield.
-

With say a few others stepping up to have very good years
- Savage - Since returning to the team he has been IMO in our top 4 in most games. We need to have that form continue. IMO I think that "Steak Knives" has at lat arrived.
- Sinclair - Would be a big plus as this guy does what many of our players do not which is to use the ball very well and to the advantage of his team and team-mates.
- Robbo
- Hickey- Now YES Longer can now and them palm the ball beautifully, but for us to be a flag threat we need Hickey playing like he did in the JLT against the Swans for it is very hard to beat quality teams with only 17 men on the field. Trouble is that I think that Richo wants Longer and so I am not sure that Hickey will be given the chance as it may be Longer or Bust!
- Clark -We need a bolter or two. Someone to really emerge and Clark looks the most likely.
- Paddy or Bruce
- Steele- Needs to have a very good year and not just a good year.

If we just end up with a team of average players playing really good team football then yes we may sneak into the 8. But that will be it.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Sat 03 Mar 2018 3:04pm, edited 2 times in total.


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