I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

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Re: I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

Post: # 1705555Post Jacks Back »

Enrico_Misso wrote:
skeptic wrote:Did we improve in 2017?

We may not have won more games but tougher draw than last year and we just missed the finals after looking like certainties with a month to go.

People say we didn’t turn up to play in both games against Melbourne and against Essendon… but in all of those performances, we were lacklustre for the majority but the game was still there to be won part way through the third quarter.
Throw in the fact that we kicked our way out of commanding positions vs WCE and Geelong early in the season and the brain fade vs Port… that’s 6 games that weren’t that far off winning.

But more than that, here’ what I liked…
Billings went from barely looking best 22 to clearly a superstar if he could be more consistent and kick straighter.

Dunstan and Sinclair cemented themselves in the top 22

Gresh clearly a player

Carlisle rewarded the faith we showed in him… you know one of those good players we can’t attract

Acres, Steven, Steele, Longer and White went from could potentially be good players to clearly good enough players that just need to take the next step.

Membrey and Bruce were IMO much maligned forwards that performed admirably in a team that struggled with ball movement for much of the season.

I liked the look of Battle and Marsh all season and was encouraged by Freeman putting a whole season together without being interrupted by soft-tissue issues.


The downside…
Hickey didn’t fire a shot all season. Clearly the best ruck at the start of the season, he looked out of sorts all year.

Mav Weller went from good, reliable tough nut to… ‘I can’t believe this guy got chosen again

Dmac and Lonie couldn’t translate excellent VFL form to excellent AFL form

Paddy had another year plagued by concussion concerns


The List…
Yes we have too many ruckman with 5 and what’s concerning is not one is the right package
Longer is a beast in the middle but doesn’t influence the play around the ground enough
Hickey is good around the ground but gets smashed in the middle

Neither is perfect but both are good enough to be on the list as number 1 & 2… with only one of those types of players belonging in the top 22
That makes Jason Holmes role as back up superfluous as one of the above are the back up.

It leaves us one spot for a developing ruck… that belongs to the promising Marsh who appears groomed to be a key position relief ruck, and probably puts Pierce on his last chance to show he can do something or be cut.

Defenders… well with the addition of Austin to Carlisle and Brown, and Goddard looking ready to hit the ground running this season, we’re looking less vulnerable in the key posts. Geary remains a lock for the lock down role whilst Roberton is our versatile medium.

That leaves Webster, Savage and Newnes (+ White) vying for that running back position and all have skills but need to be a bit better.
One could also see a Dmac or Rice fit down there too but again they need to lift.

Forward line…
Well despite criticism, Bruce and Membrey are locks… Paddy is the big question mark as a key forward with Marsh and Battle developing.
We have Billings, Gresh, Acres all established as running, sometimes crumbing guys that are potential match winners if they could all kick a touch straighter or be more consistent.

Rounding out the pocket positions are the cluster of ??? in Wright, Minch, Lonie and Weller… of that lot, to me Dasher looks to be the one worth persevering with.
Clean out next season.

Mids…
Steven and Ross are our only elite’ish mids. Both not quite up there with the very best but are still very good.
Then you have Steele, Dunstan, Stevens, Armitage and Acres… all decent players in their own right but too vanilla in that they’re all a similar type

Sinclair gives us a touch of the outside and we’re all hoping that Freeman can come on and close the void just a touch.
Beyond that the only pace we have on the list to potentially come in is this Connellan kid I’m hearing a lot about.

Clearly the area we’re lacking in.

We missed out on trading a ready made solution in but no doubt pick 7&8 will target the pace/disposal that we need and we’ll load up again next year and try to recruit the ready made that we need.


Movement – Out are our retired stalwarts in Roo, Monty and Dempster… had to happen. Seems one or two more may follow.


The draft period… the majority are lamenting are inactivity but exactly what did we miss out on.
Dusty, Fyfe and Kelly didn’t move

Tomlinson and Haynes we were interested in but both were overpriced and not the big fish we needed

Lever only wanted Melbourne and went on HUGE coin, pbly above what he was worth and the reality is that he’s unproven outside a great defence

Charlie Cameron would have been nice but was only ever headed to Brisbane.

So again… who is that big fish we failed to lure

We said no to Rockcliff who is expensive and questionable
Motlop!!?? Way too inconsistent for the coin he demanded
Trengrove? He’s okay but hardly the masterstroke for us to spend coin on.

Weller only wanted QLD.
Scahache was meh and not what we wanted
Matera is a player type we already have much of
Ablett, Gibbs, Hodge = too old and expensive

Kennedy, Lang, Saad, Lobbe, Wilson, Gibson, Murray, Young, Balic, Ah’Chee, Wigg, Crozier, Smith, all hardly big fish and again, not what we wanted…

So that leaves…
Jack Watts who again is not what we needed and Stringer who is talented but troubled and cost 2 second round picks.

To be honest… looking at that list, people can lament all they want but there really wasn’t much on offer and I for one am glad that we held our nerve instead of paying overs for a crappy deal that doesn’t really benefit us.

No deal is better than a bad one.


OFF FIELD –
Moorabbin is moving full steam ahead
We’re getting a women’s team
Our membership numbers are at their highest
No off-field scandals
Sandy alliance going on for now at least
Salary cap is reported to be in good shape, we still have our war chest in play for next season

Not overly happy they’ve extended Richo’s position so soon but obviously they believe in the guy…
Lets hope he can take some steps towards improving the erratic psychology of the playing list on-field.
We’ve targeted a goal kicking coach so that’s a start

There’s been some admin turnover, coaches have shuffled, Bains is off…

All… to me things look pretty positive.

Don’t get the doom and gloom at all.
Excellent post Skeptic and pretty much agreed with all of it.

One side point it that it is incredibly annoying when posters for no obvious reason insist on re-quoting long posts just to add a minor two sentence comment.
+1


As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”


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Re: I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

Post: # 1705719Post Zed »

I love the positivity in this thread - but expecting a guy who hasn’t yet played a league game after 4 years on an AFL list being on the reasons we are going to surge into the finals just a bit OTT for me.

I am genuinely interested to see how much improvement we get from our 3rd to 5th year players. Billings Acres Dunstan Sinclair to be the backbone of our on field improvement in 2018.


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Re: I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

Post: # 1705735Post Bruce G McAbee »

Our major improvement this year was out defence as we never got monstered by any power forwards all season. Better defence led to a better percentage than last year despite 1 less win. Also better percentage was because we never got smashed by a hundred points, but Sydney still monsters us a bit. Our forward line didn't improve though we probably had a wider sprinkling of goal kickers.
Hickey and McCartin were the big disappointments and I feel if McCartin doesn't show anything next season, or suffers another concussion his career will be over and I feel that fear of a concussion is weighing down on his mind.
For us to improve next year, guys like Acres, Gresham, Sinclair, Dunstan, Billings will have to take that next step up.
To be honest after being so close in 09 and 10, just making the finals isn't enough, we have to be contenders and finally win the damn thing in my lifetime.


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Re: I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

Post: # 1705770Post CQ SAINT »

Enrico_Misso wrote:
skeptic wrote:Did we improve in 2017?

We may not have won more games but tougher draw than last year and we just missed the finals after looking like certainties with a month to go.

People say we didn’t turn up to play in both games against Melbourne and against Essendon… but in all of those performances, we were lacklustre for the majority but the game was still there to be won part way through the third quarter.
Throw in the fact that we kicked our way out of commanding positions vs WCE and Geelong early in the season and the brain fade vs Port… that’s 6 games that weren’t that far off winning.

But more than that, here’ what I liked…
Billings went from barely looking best 22 to clearly a superstar if he could be more consistent and kick straighter.

Dunstan and Sinclair cemented themselves in the top 22

Gresh clearly a player

Carlisle rewarded the faith we showed in him… you know one of those good players we can’t attract

Acres, Steven, Steele, Longer and White went from could potentially be good players to clearly good enough players that just need to take the next step.

Membrey and Bruce were IMO much maligned forwards that performed admirably in a team that struggled with ball movement for much of the season.

I liked the look of Battle and Marsh all season and was encouraged by Freeman putting a whole season together without being interrupted by soft-tissue issues.


The downside…
Hickey didn’t fire a shot all season. Clearly the best ruck at the start of the season, he looked out of sorts all year.

Mav Weller went from good, reliable tough nut to… ‘I can’t believe this guy got chosen again

Dmac and Lonie couldn’t translate excellent VFL form to excellent AFL form

Paddy had another year plagued by concussion concerns


The List…
Yes we have too many ruckman with 5 and what’s concerning is not one is the right package
Longer is a beast in the middle but doesn’t influence the play around the ground enough
Hickey is good around the ground but gets smashed in the middle

Neither is perfect but both are good enough to be on the list as number 1 & 2… with only one of those types of players belonging in the top 22
That makes Jason Holmes role as back up superfluous as one of the above are the back up.

It leaves us one spot for a developing ruck… that belongs to the promising Marsh who appears groomed to be a key position relief ruck, and probably puts Pierce on his last chance to show he can do something or be cut.

Defenders… well with the addition of Austin to Carlisle and Brown, and Goddard looking ready to hit the ground running this season, we’re looking less vulnerable in the key posts. Geary remains a lock for the lock down role whilst Roberton is our versatile medium.

That leaves Webster, Savage and Newnes (+ White) vying for that running back position and all have skills but need to be a bit better.
One could also see a Dmac or Rice fit down there too but again they need to lift.

Forward line…
Well despite criticism, Bruce and Membrey are locks… Paddy is the big question mark as a key forward with Marsh and Battle developing.
We have Billings, Gresh, Acres all established as running, sometimes crumbing guys that are potential match winners if they could all kick a touch straighter or be more consistent.

Rounding out the pocket positions are the cluster of ??? in Wright, Minch, Lonie and Weller… of that lot, to me Dasher looks to be the one worth persevering with.
Clean out next season.

Mids…
Steven and Ross are our only elite’ish mids. Both not quite up there with the very best but are still very good.
Then you have Steele, Dunstan, Stevens, Armitage and Acres… all decent players in their own right but too vanilla in that they’re all a similar type

Sinclair gives us a touch of the outside and we’re all hoping that Freeman can come on and close the void just a touch.
Beyond that the only pace we have on the list to potentially come in is this Connellan kid I’m hearing a lot about.

Clearly the area we’re lacking in.

We missed out on trading a ready made solution in but no doubt pick 7&8 will target the pace/disposal that we need and we’ll load up again next year and try to recruit the ready made that we need.


Movement – Out are our retired stalwarts in Roo, Monty and Dempster… had to happen. Seems one or two more may follow.


The draft period… the majority are lamenting are inactivity but exactly what did we miss out on.
Dusty, Fyfe and Kelly didn’t move

Tomlinson and Haynes we were interested in but both were overpriced and not the big fish we needed

Lever only wanted Melbourne and went on HUGE coin, pbly above what he was worth and the reality is that he’s unproven outside a great defence

Charlie Cameron would have been nice but was only ever headed to Brisbane.

So again… who is that big fish we failed to lure

We said no to Rockcliff who is expensive and questionable
Motlop!!?? Way too inconsistent for the coin he demanded
Trengrove? He’s okay but hardly the masterstroke for us to spend coin on.

Weller only wanted QLD.
Scahache was meh and not what we wanted
Matera is a player type we already have much of
Ablett, Gibbs, Hodge = too old and expensive

Kennedy, Lang, Saad, Lobbe, Wilson, Gibson, Murray, Young, Balic, Ah’Chee, Wigg, Crozier, Smith, all hardly big fish and again, not what we wanted…

So that leaves…
Jack Watts who again is not what we needed and Stringer who is talented but troubled and cost 2 second round picks.

To be honest… looking at that list, people can lament all they want but there really wasn’t much on offer and I for one am glad that we held our nerve instead of paying overs for a crappy deal that doesn’t really benefit us.

No deal is better than a bad one.


OFF FIELD –
Moorabbin is moving full steam ahead
We’re getting a women’s team
Our membership numbers are at their highest
No off-field scandals
Sandy alliance going on for now at least
Salary cap is reported to be in good shape, we still have our war chest in play for next season

Not overly happy they’ve extended Richo’s position so soon but obviously they believe in the guy…
Lets hope he can take some steps towards improving the erratic psychology of the playing list on-field.
We’ve targeted a goal kicking coach so that’s a start

There’s been some admin turnover, coaches have shuffled, Bains is off…

All… to me things look pretty positive.

Don’t get the doom and gloom at all.
Excellent post Skeptic and pretty much agreed with all of it.

One side point it that it is incredibly annoying when posters for no obvious reason insist on re-quoting long posts just to add a minor two sentence comment.

Yeah. It takes up so much paper. :D


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Re: I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

Post: # 1705772Post spert »

saynta wrote:
outside66 wrote:
Devilhead wrote:Keeping in mind that on average we were equal 4th at shots on goal (doesnt include our numerous OoF shots) and we have the youngest age demographic of all teams

We have so much room for improvement its not funny or fair

Future looks so bright you gotta wear 8-)
+ 1
I have got to agree. There is more upside than downside.

Four young kids coming in. Two of them at least, cream

Armo back and firing. We really missed his hardness and drive this year.

A fit McCartin, Goodard, Steven and Freeman.

Natural improvement from Long, White, Rice, Greesham, McKenzie and Steele


Plus improved goalkicking and fierce competition for spots should see us finals bound.
When you have been around a long time like meself, you know what acheiving and underachieving is- in sport, business, life etc. The Saints underachieved this season. There was absolutely no reason not to have moved up one or two positions on the ladder over season 2016. The resources we had were not used well, and the club stood still, or went slightly backwards.
Armo is near the end of his career, and at best has started seasons well, then faded, so I don't expect much input from him fit or not. Paddy has done nothing apart from kicking a few goals in the VFL and getting injured/ concussed. Freeman has done nothing and Goddard has barely made any impact. The player who needs to lift in 2018 is Jack Steven, who is now one of the senior players who must lead by example. I expect a step up from White, Sinclair, Gresh Dmac and Steele, and Ross to consolidate his form. If we don't start playing a better brand of football in 2018, then Richo will be rightly under the microscope.


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Re: I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

Post: # 1705860Post kalsaint »

Enrico_Misso wrote:
skeptic wrote:Did we improve in 2017?

.................. Not overly happy they’ve extended Richo’s position so soon but obviously they believe in the guy…
Lets hope he can take some steps towards improving the erratic psychology of the playing list on-field.
We’ve targeted a goal kicking coach so that’s a start

There’s been some admin turnover, coaches have shuffled, Bains is off…

All… to me things look pretty positive.

Don’t get the doom and gloom at all.
Excellent post Skeptic and pretty much agreed with all of it.

One side point it that it is incredibly annoying when posters for no obvious reason insist on re-quoting long posts just to add a minor two sentence comment.
Pretty good post Skeptic. Generally agree but I find ground Leadership the issue that beat us in many games last year.

We will definitely improve with inclusion of those who have been injured for long periods. The question will be how much and is this sufficient to stop other teams passing us. It happened this year and if we continue to get injuries with the same players, we might struggle to improve ladder position.

Having said that, Richo's job is critical to get the game plan well understood and executed with some alternative moves and plans when pressure teams stick it to us like Adelaide, Sydney, WCE (pre 2017) have. We need to win some games big to offset those big losses or be prepared to win more games through mental application to offset any poor percentage. As Ross said, we don't need to play the Kindergarten but we do need to keep player development and opportunity in mind.

2018 draft will be interesting if still cashed up with a strong draft and some quality free agency options if we are to advance through finals.


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Re: I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

Post: # 1705864Post asiu »

'advancing through the finals'

there it is !

chinup display just lifted a few percentile

out with : making finals
in with : advancing through the finals

2017 has been a successful season then

go us.


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Re: I don't get the doom and gloom (long post)

Post: # 1705869Post saintsRrising »

kalsaint wrote: and some quality free agency options.
Fools gold there I suspect as in the next FA Period there are only about 3 FAs available that would make an appreciable difference to us. Gain a star through FA, if not actually a genuine premiership contender, is probably going to be very unlikely.

So if they do swap clubs there are a lot of potential suitors, for very few available players.

FA will more likely continue to be of benefit to us in acquiring players looking for more opportunity.


Our path to success needs to come via our:

- Youth, including this years picks. We need many to step up to a higher level. Having Gresh and Billings alone step up will provide excitement, but we need many to step up to gain team success

- At least some of our MIA players of Armo, Paddy, Freeman and Goddard.


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