Agressive, not reckless.

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Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Drake Huggins » Thu 12 Oct 2017 1:36pm

There is a fair bit of consternation on here about our lack of aggression in the trade period and the seeming reluctance of players from other clubs wanting to come to us. I know AR spoke about approaching the trade period aggressively, but does that necessarily mean throwing everything out there, regardless of possible consequences? I don't think so. Once Fyfe, Martin and Kelly were out of the picture, frankly speaking, there wasn't worth much pursuing. Lever was never going anywhere but Melbourne, and has been traded for two first rounders (madness). Stringer, while talented, is seriously damaged goods. Motflop will be getting $600K plus per year. Any club willing to pay that is welcome to him. Way overpriced.
Devon Smith has dodgy knees, can't get a regular game at GWS and cost the dopers pick 11. We dodged another bullet there if it meant parting with pick 8 for him.

Matthew Kennedy, a GOP, whose type we have plenty of. Prefer others. Rockliff? Good player, but a 2.8 million dollar investment for someone who is getting on, has dodgy shoulders and a record of less than an ideal attitude. Nature's way of saying, don't touch. The trade period is a bit like an auction that is populated by desperate buyers. They feel they need to come away with a purchase, any purchase, to feel they have made some progress. Personally, I'm glad Ameet and co. have held their nerve so far. There is still a way to go, and I'm sure there is a surprise or two to go. If what's on offer doesn't excite you, or suit your needs, why would you waste your time and money? We have what others want. Let's play the pressure game. We hold the whip hand. If nothing eventuates, we still have access to a couple of potential guns, and we save our money for another day.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby thejiggingsaint » Thu 12 Oct 2017 1:40pm

Drake Huggins wrote:There is a fair bit of consternation on here about our lack of aggression in the trade period and the seeming reluctance of players from other clubs wanting to come to us. I know AR spoke about approaching the trade period aggressively, but does that necessarily mean throwing everything out there, regardless of possible consequences? I don't think so. Once Fyfe, Martin and Kelly were out of the picture, frankly speaking, there wasn't worth much pursuing. Lever was never going anywhere but Melbourne, and has been traded for two first rounders (madness). Stringer, while talented, is seriously damaged goods. Motflop will be getting $600K plus per year. Any club willing to pay that is welcome to him. Way overpriced.
Devon Smith has dodgy knees, can't get a regular game at GWS and cost the dopers pick 11. We dodged another bullet there if it meant parting with pick 8 for him.

Matthew Kennedy, a GOP, whose type we have plenty of. Prefer others. Rockliff? Good player, but a 2.8 million dollar investment for someone who is getting on, has dodgy shoulders and a record of less than an ideal attitude. Nature's way of saying, don't touch. The trade period is a bit like an auction that is populated by desperate buyers. They feel they need to come away with a purchase, any purchase, to feel they have made some progress. Personally, I'm glad Ameet and co. have held their nerve so far. There is still a way to go, and I'm sure there is a surprise or two to go. If what's on offer doesn't excite you, or suit your needs, why would you waste your time and money? We have what others want. Let's play the pressure game. We hold the whip hand. If nothing eventuates, we still have access to a couple of potential guns, and we save our money for another day.


Mods! Please issue a warning to this poster for making sense! ( this IS Saintsational after all! :lol: :lol: :lol: )

Seriously, excellent post mate! Well articulated and reasoned.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby SaintPav » Thu 12 Oct 2017 1:44pm

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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Drake Huggins » Thu 12 Oct 2017 1:47pm

In addition, next year, Sloane and Lynch will be well and truly available. That's when I'd prefer to have my "war chest' ready. Imagine our list being a year further advanced and adding two genuine stars to it? One a gun forward and natural leader, the other a midfield beast. That's before any others come onto the market. That's when I'd expect Ameet and Richo to throw the kitchen sink at it. Bring on 2020!
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby degruch » Thu 12 Oct 2017 1:50pm

Yep, pretty much. Would we be worrying about it so much if we hadn't received negative press from media hacks, or heard the words from our coach? As I mentioned in the Jaxons thread, hanging onto picks 7 & 8 might be a publicity failure, but not a strategic failure, for the reasons you've mentioned above. I wouldn't have minded Smith, but never considered we'd be losing a high pick on him.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby ace » Thu 12 Oct 2017 2:05pm

St Kilda aggressive, Hawthorn reckless
The Omeara deal left Hawthorn with picks 33, 43, 61, 80
They may be reckless enough to steal some points from us.
We give them picks 44, 58 & 62 in return for pick 33
They get 633 points for only 563 points.
You know you want to do it Hawthorn, give us a second round pick for a third round and two fourth rounders.
We only need 3 picks make them worthwhile for us Dorks.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Con Gorozidis » Thu 12 Oct 2017 2:16pm

Sorry but saying we are going to be 'aggressive' at the trade table was just a dumb comment.
I am sure AR would take that back if he had the chance.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby To the top » Thu 12 Oct 2017 2:19pm

Agree

Having done a very reasonable job of rebuilding under Richardson I would assess that the ONLY player type we are after is top shelf

So, if we keep our powder dry, we look at the likes of Sloane this time next year - or anyone else of his ilk who can add immediate class to a developing List.

Why burn your currency on anything less?

Can we get them?

That is not the issue - being in a position to ask the question and have the money in the bank to back up the question is

And St Kilda will be a destination Club for someone (returning to Victoria) because it has Salary Cap space - and that is a known in the market

The further criteria is that we seek FA players - so forego no Draft picks or required players.

Chasing already Contracted players is not the way to go - they cost just too much

GWS got exactly what they wanted for Smith - First Round Draft picks

I am of the view that you never give these away because the industry says these are the core of your side going forward

And that is why Mc Cartin, Billings, Freeman, Dunstan, Acres, Gresham and Goddard are so vitally important to St Kilda

Along with 7 and 8 in a few weeks time.

Then a Sloane type for 2019.

The contradiction, of course, is Carlisle but the hole in our side was just too large to ignore his availability at that time.

This accruing of First Round Draft picks plus selective FA acquisition(s) is the way you transition your "bottom 6" and position yourself to become a serious contender, year in and year out

Under Lyon, we lost our way instead bringing in "role players" who were problematic selections at the Clubs they left, and lower order Clubs at that.

Gardiner was really the only success story.

And just too much was left to the class we assembled via the Draft, hence we stumbled on the biggest stage of all where you can not cover your "bottom 6".

So you learn the lessons

The 2 GWS players speculated on need to come out of Contract - and they know St Kilda are interested.

As Ferguson said at Manchester United, "I am only interested in what the sides who are a threat to us are doing"

Hence you do not give free feeds to GWS by handing over First Round Draft picks because they will come back and sting you.

The next debate is, with Armitage, Mc Cartin, Freeman, Goddard plus 7 and 8, who are our "bottom 6" who will come under extreme pressure?

Because that will drive the improvement we must make
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby saintsRrising » Thu 12 Oct 2017 2:25pm

Drake Huggins wrote:There is a fair bit of consternation on here about our lack of aggression in the trade period and the seeming reluctance of players from other clubs wanting to come to us.



I think the reality is that the club has been forced to turn back to youth after failing to convince any of the desired BigFish to join us.

All the teeth gnashing in the world does not alter the reality that very good players rarely join teams outside of the 8, and that the club got it wrong to finish off its rebuild by this means. We gained Carlisle more last year because he wanted to leave, rather than his being desperate to join us. The mistake back when the plan was drawn up was to place too much faith in Free Agency and $$$$ alone being enough to land some absolute guns.

So the Saints are poised Seagull like to pounce on offerings that trade week may present (and so far we are going hungry), rather than being the club that players want to be at.

So that is the reality, and you have to cut the cloth to fit. Our rebuild is back to being the tortoise and not the hare.

The other reality is that Bains and Co know that we are lacking real cream and hence the desire to get higher in the draft.

Individually we have many players whom you can look at at say yes, he is or could be best 22. But when you come to rate as AA or possible AA then things get ugly.

Drake Huggins wrote:We hold the whip hand..


Why?? Yes we have picks 7 and 8. But not a Top 3 pick where the real potential guns are.

7 and 8 positions us well, but it is not a whip hand.

And unless we do a "Selwood" it is still not likely to gain that absolute gun that we so clearly lack. But yes it should deliver us some good top end talent. Fortunately too this year there does seem to be a lot of good mids and so that top end talent should be of the type of player that we most need.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby bigcarl » Thu 12 Oct 2017 3:09pm

SaintPav wrote:Like


Me too
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby spert » Thu 12 Oct 2017 3:26pm

There should be pressure on all players to do their best. I think the lack of pressure on positions from Sandy Saint players as the year went on, left quite a few of our senior players in a comfort zone. We had Dustan and Lonie in and out and then forcing their way back into the seniors, but apart from White putting his hand up later in the season, not much else going on from the VFL direction.
It looks as if the Saints recruiters will be concentrating on new young talent rather than trying to snag a bigger name?
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Sainternist » Thu 12 Oct 2017 3:27pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:Sorry but saying we are going to be 'aggressive' at the trade table was just a dumb comment.
I am sure AR would take that back if he had the chance.


That was in reference to trying to get a trade for Kelly or Martin.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Selhurst Saint » Thu 12 Oct 2017 3:28pm

This thread is too sensible.
"...If there has been one recurring theme through this whole shocking mess, it has been the misguided, inflated egos and their ill-judged determination to cling to long-standing old boy friendships. The bad advice that has guided the selfish and culpable James Hird has not only punctuated this saga but symbolised it..."
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby thejiggingsaint » Thu 12 Oct 2017 4:13pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:Sorry but saying we are going to be 'aggressive' at the trade table was just a dumb comment.
I am sure AR would take that back if he had the chance.

I'm sure that over the journey, there's not many of us who'd take things back if we had the chance.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby sunsaint » Thu 12 Oct 2017 4:18pm

saintsRrising wrote:
I think the reality is that the club has been forced to turn back to youth after failing to convince any of the desired BigFish to join us.

All the teeth gnashing in the world does not alter the reality that very good players rarely join teams outside of the 8, and that the club got it wrong to finish off its rebuild by this means. We gained Carlisle more last year because he wanted to leave, rather than his being desperate to join us. The mistake back when the plan was drawn up was to place too much faith in Free Agency and $$$$ alone being enough to land some absolute guns.

So the Saints are poised Seagull like to pounce on offerings that trade week may present (and so far we are going hungry), rather than being the club that players want to be at.

So that is the reality, and you have to cut the cloth to fit. Our rebuild is back to being the tortoise and not the hare.

The other reality is that Bains and Co know that we are lacking real cream and hence the desire to get higher in the draft.

Individually we have many players whom you can look at at say yes, he is or could be best 22. But when you come to rate as AA or possible AA then things get ugly.


Im very much with aligned with SrS on this one
I think ole Drake made a bit of a rookie(?) mistake in his post as he completely over-looked our salary cap issue
I found it intriguing as each of the sublime cherry on top elite players on offer this year had a line put through their names our club went about extending contracts on some of our younger players.
Yes we all applauded the club prudently securing our 20-24 yr old talent for an extra year/s but I did get the feeling the much touted war chest had to be allocated to the players we already had on the list.
We can debate endlessly on the merits of securing our own vs throwing the cheque book at the games elite, but I am now left with the feeling we may only pick up some depth B graders and hope that 7 & 8 turn into something special in three years time.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby stkfc1 » Thu 12 Oct 2017 4:27pm

Thread of the year. Couldnt agree more. We are being more than sensible and very happy where we sit. We'll have to a bit of financial shuffling to make sure our war chest is still sizable for next years tradingand stay in our salary cap requirements but easy enough to do. We have very clear thinking people in charge with what the club wants to do and Im so glad it isnt willing to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" with 2nd rate trades. Our administration is becoming our strongest asset.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Drake Huggins » Thu 12 Oct 2017 5:01pm

saintsRrising wrote:
Drake Huggins wrote:There is a fair bit of consternation on here about our lack of aggression in the trade period and the seeming reluctance of players from other clubs wanting to come to us.



I think the reality is that the club has been forced to turn back to youth after failing to convince any of the desired BigFish to join us.

All the teeth gnashing in the world does not alter the reality that very good players rarely join teams outside of the 8, and that the club got it wrong to finish off its rebuild by this means. We gained Carlisle more last year because he wanted to leave, rather than his being desperate to join us. The mistake back when the plan was drawn up was to place too much faith in Free Agency and $$$$ alone being enough to land some absolute guns.

So the Saints are poised Seagull like to pounce on offerings that trade week may present (and so far we are going hungry), rather than being the club that players want to be at.

So that is the reality, and you have to cut the cloth to fit. Our rebuild is back to being the tortoise and not the hare.

The other reality is that Bains and Co know that we are lacking real cream and hence the desire to get higher in the draft.

Individually we have many players whom you can look at at say yes, he is or could be best 22. But when you come to rate as AA or possible AA then things get ugly.

Drake Huggins wrote:We hold the whip hand..


Why?? Yes we have picks 7 and 8. But not a Top 3 pick where the real potential guns are.

7 and 8 positions us well, but it is not a whip hand.



And unless we do a "Selwood" it is still not likely to gain that absolute gun that we so clearly lack. But yes it should deliver us some good top end talent. Fortunately too this year there does seem to be a lot of good mids and so that top end talent should be of the type of player that we most need.


Standby, SRS. You hold a whip hand when someone wants what you've got. I don't claim to be a jaxons, but a reliable little birdy tells me we may still pull out a "Bradbury". PM me next week. :wink:
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Drake Huggins » Thu 12 Oct 2017 5:11pm

sunsaint wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:
I think the reality is that the club has been forced to turn back to youth after failing to convince any of the desired BigFish to join us.

All the teeth gnashing in the world does not alter the reality that very good players rarely join teams outside of the 8, and that the club got it wrong to finish off its rebuild by this means. We gained Carlisle more last year because he wanted to leave, rather than his being desperate to join us. The mistake back when the plan was drawn up was to place too much faith in Free Agency and $$$$ alone being enough to land some absolute guns.

So the Saints are poised Seagull like to pounce on offerings that trade week may present (and so far we are going hungry), rather than being the club that players want to be at.

So that is the reality, and you have to cut the cloth to fit. Our rebuild is back to being the tortoise and not the hare.

The other reality is that Bains and Co know that we are lacking real cream and hence the desire to get higher in the draft.

Individually we have many players whom you can look at at say yes, he is or could be best 22. But when you come to rate as AA or possible AA then things get ugly.


Im very much with aligned with SrS on this one
I think ole Drake made a bit of a rookie(?) mistake in his post as he completely over-looked our salary cap issue
I found it intriguing as each of the sublime cherry on top elite players on offer this year had a line put through their names our club went about extending contracts on some of our younger players.
Yes we all applauded the club prudently securing our 20-24 yr old talent for an extra year/s but I did get the feeling the much touted war chest had to be allocated to the players we already had on the list.
We can debate endlessly on the merits of securing our own vs throwing the cheque book at the games elite, but I am now left with the feeling we may only pick up some depth B graders and hope that 7 & 8 turn into something special in three years time.

Yes, sunsaint, we have spent some of the war chest on the likes of Billings and we have prepared an offer that should stave Geelong off next year. They are very interested in getting Paddy as a replacement for Hawkins and were preparing to make a play for him at the end of this year, before he ran into more concussion problems. Now that Paddy is looking leaner than a greyhound, they will come sniffing again. Of course some of the war chest needs to be reserved for future guns like Gresh, Acres, Steele, Dunstan and McCartin, but I can assure you there's plenty left in the bikkie tin.

If we don't blow extra funds on the likes of Motflop, Watts, Stringer etc. we'll have enough to get a Sloane AND a Lynch, if we can get them to come, especially as the cap is about to be extended. By general estimates, we have about an extra 3 million to spare, which includes our savings and the extras. Not bad, eh? Hope that clears up my "rookie" mistake.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby maverick » Thu 12 Oct 2017 6:40pm

There are two exceptions to this.
Watts and stringer.
Both are A grade and could be elite, both are dangerous players with X factor and required development.
We could use either or both and probably get them with pick 8 and a 3rd rounder.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby SuperDuper » Thu 12 Oct 2017 7:17pm

maverick wrote:There are two exceptions to this.
Watts and stringer.
Both are A grade and could be elite, both are dangerous players with X factor and required development.
We could use either or both and probably get them with pick 8 and a 3rd rounder.


We could get Stringer by trading 8 to Tigers for 15 and 17 and using 15 for Stringer. Dogs would do it. Tigers would do it (they will get Naish at around 17 anyway without needng the pick so they are getting a 15 to 8 upgrade for free)

It is incredible to think that our club does not want Stringer for effectively an 8 to 17 downgrade.

I am not even saying we should do it... just that if you said that was possible 8 months ago, and that we would not do it, you would say ya must be dreamin!
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby saintspremiers » Thu 12 Oct 2017 7:35pm

thejiggingsaint wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Sorry but saying we are going to be 'aggressive' at the trade table was just a dumb comment.
I am sure AR would take that back if he had the chance.

I'm sure that over the journey, there's not many of us who'd take things back if we had the chance.


But you and I aren't public figures.

Richo is normally very guarded with his comments so he must've been 100% committed to his comments
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Drake Huggins » Thu 12 Oct 2017 8:39pm

maverick wrote:There are two exceptions to this.
Watts and stringer.
Both are A grade and could be elite, both are dangerous players with X factor and required development.
We could use either or both and probably get them with pick 8 and a 3rd rounder.


Standby, maverick. It ain't over until it's over, although Watts looks a lock for the power. My boy tells me Jack hasn't got the greatest attitude towards his AFL career. Direct evidence of same. Jack has substantial business interests set up here, has great networks, support and family wealth. Doesn't need AFL footy as much as others and that is reflected in his work ethic and his input on game days. The only way he will be what he can be is if he suddenly decides he wants to have a great legacy. Personally, I'd back Richo in to get the best from him, however, the club seems a bit uninterested and the chance has passed. Pity.

As for Jake, he is a massive risk behaviourally, but again, at the right price, I'd back our culture and coach in to turn him around. The boy can really play and would provide some "X" factor we lack. Again, Maverick, pick 8 and a second rounder back would get it done in a heartbeat if we were interested. For some reason, we're not. I trust the club has done its due diligence and risk assessments and decided he's not worth it. I think our "no dickheads" policy is working reasonably well. The last real d**khead we had was the head coach, Watters. I still wonder how that happened. Maybe Nettlefold found empathy with a fellow d**khead?
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby maverick » Thu 12 Oct 2017 8:59pm

SuperDuper wrote:
maverick wrote:There are two exceptions to this.
Watts and stringer.
Both are A grade and could be elite, both are dangerous players with X factor and required development.
We could use either or both and probably get them with pick 8 and a 3rd rounder.


We could get Stringer by trading 8 to Tigers for 15 and 17 and using 15 for Stringer. Dogs would do it. Tigers would do it (they will get Naish at around 17 anyway without needng the pick so they are getting a 15 to 8 upgrade for free)

It is incredible to think that our club does not want Stringer for effectively an 8 to 17 downgrade.

I am not even saying we should do it... just that if you said that was possible 8 months ago, and that we would not do it, you would say ya must be dreamin!


We could then swap pick 17 for watts and pick 35
Meaning we get stronger and watts plus pick 35 for pick 8
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby saintsRrising » Thu 12 Oct 2017 10:30pm

maverick wrote:There are two exceptions to this.
Watts and stringer.
Both are A grade and could be elite, both are dangerous players with X factor and required development.
We could use either or both and probably get them with pick 8 and a 3rd rounder.


Which is why we were able to grab Carlisle.

Good players with issues are the ones that will look at us.
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Re: Agressive, not reckless.

Postby Wayne42 » Thu 12 Oct 2017 10:49pm

Drake Huggins wrote:
sunsaint wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:
I think the reality is that the club has been forced to turn back to youth after failing to convince any of the desired BigFish to join us.

All the teeth gnashing in the world does not alter the reality that very good players rarely join teams outside of the 8, and that the club got it wrong to finish off its rebuild by this means. We gained Carlisle more last year because he wanted to leave, rather than his being desperate to join us. The mistake back when the plan was drawn up was to place too much faith in Free Agency and $$$$ alone being enough to land some absolute guns.

So the Saints are poised Seagull like to pounce on offerings that trade week may present (and so far we are going hungry), rather than being the club that players want to be at.

So that is the reality, and you have to cut the cloth to fit. Our rebuild is back to being the tortoise and not the hare.

The other reality is that Bains and Co know that we are lacking real cream and hence the desire to get higher in the draft.

Individually we have many players whom you can look at at say yes, he is or could be best 22. But when you come to rate as AA or possible AA then things get ugly.


Im very much with aligned with SrS on this one
I think ole Drake made a bit of a rookie(?) mistake in his post as he completely over-looked our salary cap issue
I found it intriguing as each of the sublime cherry on top elite players on offer this year had a line put through their names our club went about extending contracts on some of our younger players.
Yes we all applauded the club prudently securing our 20-24 yr old talent for an extra year/s but I did get the feeling the much touted war chest had to be allocated to the players we already had on the list.
We can debate endlessly on the merits of securing our own vs throwing the cheque book at the games elite, but I am now left with the feeling we may only pick up some depth B graders and hope that 7 & 8 turn into something special in three years time.

Yes, sunsaint, we have spent some of the war chest on the likes of Billings and we have prepared an offer that should stave Geelong off next year. They are very interested in getting Paddy as a replacement for Hawkins and were preparing to make a play for him at the end of this year, before he ran into more concussion problems. Now that Paddy is looking leaner than a greyhound, they will come sniffing again. Of course some of the war chest needs to be reserved for future guns like Gresh, Acres, Steele, Dunstan and McCartin, but I can assure you there's plenty left in the bikkie tin.

If we don't blow extra funds on the likes of Motflop, Watts, Stringer etc. we'll have enough to get a Sloane AND a Lynch, if we can get them to come, especially as the cap is about to be extended. By general estimates, we have about an extra 3 million to spare, which includes our savings and the extras. Not bad, eh? Hope that clears up my "rookie" mistake.


Motflop, how apt is that.
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Wayne42
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