VFL side

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VFL side

Post: # 1699414Post older saint »

Once again the value of a stand alone VFL side is shown. This point has been raised by many here, including myself before , but if the idea is to leave no stone unturned to win a premiership then the excuse of cost really to me doesn't cut it in an industry which turns over as much as it does.

Richmond sit 1 game form a GF and their stand alone reserves sit in the finals
WB, supposably a poorer club than us, this time last year were in the same position as Richmond and won both
Collingwood 2010. Geelong 2011.
The exception is Hawthorn and Box Hill alignment , however that is unique.

The ability for a coach to train identical systems of play and have young players also learning the role in that system cannot be underestimated. While I am sure Sandringham coaches look to replicate the StKilda system , with veteran players there there will always be some compromise. It would also allow younger players to be more influential as they would need to be and this can only help their development also.

To me cost is a cop out. If the club upped everyones membership by $10 to help fund a stand alone team surely it would be worth it.


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699448Post saintbrat »

There are no older players at Sandy
They are all players who have been there since saints coaches have been in charge

I would like to know more about how the Hawks / Box hill arramgement works and will going forward with no Devl team


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699452Post skeptic »

older saint wrote: The exception is Hawthorn and Box Hill alignment , however that is unique.
When you say it's unique, do you mean because you're referring to the most overwhelmingly successful club of the modern era that's won what 4 premierships in 9 odd years, made 5 grand finals and a few prelims.

Is that the example you want to disregard because the Bulldogs won a flag last year (before missing the finals altogether this season) and Richmond made a prelim this year?

That makes sense


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699455Post saintsRrising »

I don't think you need a stand alone team.

However I do think a solid core of good mature bodied non-AFL eligible players in the team. That is what other clubs have that we do not.

Having a good core allows your developing kids to develop.


Having a good core provides leadership and a winning environment.

But whether standalone or via Sandi we do need to spend more $$$ as that lack of good regulars costs us dear in development IMO.


The Saints gained control over selections etc this season. But that lack of some good regulars meant that once we had a few injuries that we were stuffed.


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699463Post saintspremiers »

Don't stress, rather than showing Hamill the door we've put in charge of Sandy instead.

That should be great for our forwards development. He worked wonders for the forwards at St Kilda


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699484Post Bernard Shakey »

older saint wrote: The ability for a coach to train identical systems of play and have young players also learning the role in that system cannot be underestimated. While I am sure Sandringham coaches look to replicate the StKilda system , with veteran players there there will always be some compromise. It would also allow younger players to be more influential as they would need to be and this can only help their development also.
All Sandringham coaches are Saints coaches.


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699486Post older saint »

Clearly i have upset some Sandy fans here. Thats fine this place is all about opinions to me.
Reality is that the progress and development of our young players is slower than that of most other clubs and the impact these players have once promoted is also less - as a general rule.
It is easy to blame coaches for this however any partnership involves some compromise . I believe where the club sits with its list at the moment we cannot afford to compromise at any level.
Yes StKilda has more control than in the past but look at the disharmony 12 months ago at Sandringham.
my point is the definition of insanity is doing the same thing the same way and expecting a different result.
If the VFL is there to develop players and develop a consistency in playing style it is clearly not working. The reason fans are continually given is $$$ , well as i said how do WB afford it, how did Richmond ? They took a risk and reaped the rewards through quicker development and integration of young players into the team and AFL system .


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699504Post Sainternist »

older saint wrote: The exception is Hawthorn and Box Hill alignment , however that is unique.
How is it more unique than St.Kilda and Sandringham?


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699507Post skeptic »

older saint wrote:Clearly i have upset some Sandy fans here. Thats fine this place is all about opinions to me.

You haven't upset anyone, your logic just doesn't make sense.

You're arguing that the Bulldogs win last season is a direct result of having a standalone VFL and that that's a major reason why Richmond are where they are.
You've also pointed out that Coll and Geel in 09 and 10 are example of this too.

Then in the same breath you've chosen to completely disregard Hawthorn's model... the model that's achieved more success then all the others combined.
Further to that you've failed to mention that the Bulldogs failed to make the finals this season, that Richmond's success is that they've just one their first final in something like 15 years, that Collingwood were one bad bounce away from being off that list and that Geelong lost 3/4 of that 09 flag too.

That's not to mention that the interstate teams have a different model altogether il believe (unless it's changed in which case disregard).

So to sum up, I think your contention is wrong verging on an outright lie


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699516Post older saint »

skeptic wrote:
older saint wrote:Clearly i have upset some Sandy fans here. Thats fine this place is all about opinions to me.

You haven't upset anyone, your logic just doesn't make sense.

You're arguing that the Bulldogs win last season is a direct result of having a standalone VFL and that that's a major reason why Richmond are where they are.
You've also pointed out that Coll and Geel in 09 and 10 are example of this too.

Then in the same breath you've chosen to completely disregard Hawthorn's model... the model that's achieved more success then all the others combined.
Further to that you've failed to mention that the Bulldogs failed to make the finals this season, that Richmond's success is that they've just one their first final in something like 15 years, that Collingwood were one bad bounce away from being off that list and that Geelong lost 3/4 of that 09 flag too.

That's not to mention that the interstate teams have a different model altogether il believe (unless it's changed in which case disregard).

So to sum up, I think your contention is wrong verging on an outright lie
Clearly the relationship behind the scenes between Box Hill and Hawthorn works considerably better than Sandringham and StKilda. Living in general area you only here positive things about this relationship.
I am not disregarding the hawthorn model what i am saying is the relationship we have isn't working therefore needs to change.
I am not saying having a VFL stand alone side is the Holy Grail to winning a premiership, which you are inferring i am, what i am saying is there is a clear correlation where this has worked. Watching a lot of Richmond this year they have been able to bring players in that fit straight into the system they use- our players are unable/ unwilling/ or not good enough to do that.
Talk about bad bounces and 3/4 of the 09 game is completely irrelevant.

Interstate has been different but this is why the crows for example want to change the system for the very reason as it allows them to control their own players more. I believe Port controls much or their squad and Brisbane, GWS and Sydney all have stand alone teams also.

Best check definition of a lie as there is no deliberate mis truth here, I have written nothing more than my opinion, which is clearly different to yours, which to me if fine - too many here cross the line to insults and accusations when someone has a different opinion than theirs.
Agree to disagree.


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699519Post saintbrat »

I am really curious as to how Hawthorn and Boxhill plan to adjust to no Development- along with I beleive Carlton and Northern blues
- which other s still aligned? Casey- Demons

Richmonds success this year could also be as much about lack of injuries- apparently they only have something like 2 on their injury list.

the Saints can have as many players in VFL seniors as they want,
and the coaching staff are nearly all St Kilda- including the senior coach- it should be aligned in game style -


Ps It was good to see quite a number of the saints players at the Sandringham Best and fairest- - Saints were 8 of the top 10 placegetters with Kade Answorth winning from Nicholas O'Kearney with jack Lonie 3rd
Last edited by saintbrat on Sat 16 Sep 2017 6:30pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1699520Post skeptic »

older saint wrote:
skeptic wrote:
older saint wrote:Clearly i have upset some Sandy fans here. Thats fine this place is all about opinions to me.

You haven't upset anyone, your logic just doesn't make sense.

You're arguing that the Bulldogs win last season is a direct result of having a standalone VFL and that that's a major reason why Richmond are where they are.
You've also pointed out that Coll and Geel in 09 and 10 are example of this too.

Then in the same breath you've chosen to completely disregard Hawthorn's model... the model that's achieved more success then all the others combined.
Further to that you've failed to mention that the Bulldogs failed to make the finals this season, that Richmond's success is that they've just one their first final in something like 15 years, that Collingwood were one bad bounce away from being off that list and that Geelong lost 3/4 of that 09 flag too.

That's not to mention that the interstate teams have a different model altogether il believe (unless it's changed in which case disregard).

So to sum up, I think your contention is wrong verging on an outright lie
Clearly the relationship behind the scenes between Box Hill and Hawthorn works considerably better than Sandringham and StKilda. Living in general area you only here positive things about this relationship.
I am not disregarding the hawthorn model what i am saying is the relationship we have isn't working therefore needs to change.
I am not saying having a VFL stand alone side is the Holy Grail to winning a premiership, which you are inferring i am, what i am saying is there is a clear correlation where this has worked. Watching a lot of Richmond this year they have been able to bring players in that fit straight into the system they use- our players are unable/ unwilling/ or not good enough to do that.
Talk about bad bounces and 3/4 of the 09 game is completely irrelevant.

Interstate has been different but this is why the crows for example want to change the system for the very reason as it allows them to control their own players more. I believe Port controls much or their squad and Brisbane, GWS and Sydney all have stand alone teams also.

Best check definition of a lie as there is no deliberate mis truth here, I have written nothing more than my opinion, which is clearly different to yours, which to me if fine - too many here cross the line to insults and accusations when someone has a different opinion than theirs.
Agree to disagree.
Admittedly I should have used the word bias instead of lie so apologies for that. I didn't mean to take it into personal/insult territory

All I'm saying is that there is as much correlation that suggests either works as well as the other based on the existing information. Best left there as suggested.


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1701356Post Con Gorozidis »

Maybe we could be a stand alone side like Port Melbourne and only play in the VFL?
We might have a chance of a flag.


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1701360Post Sainternist »

Con Gorozidis wrote:Maybe we could be a stand alone side like Port Melbourne and only play in the VFL?
We might have a chance of a flag.
You idiot!


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Re: VFL side

Post: # 1701369Post Dis Believer »

I am inclined to think that our slow development of our younger players has a lot to do with our list profile. We are still recovering from the disastrous state of our list which sees us with the second youngest list in the AFL. Our kids are thrown in the deep end as soon as the few mature players we have are lost to injury or suspension. Largely this has gone unnoticed because some of the minimal senior players we had were so old that they dramatically skewed the list averages (Joey, Roo, Shinner etc). This effect was magnified at Sandringham, where due to the need to have back up ruckmen playing regular footy it would not be uncommon for us to have 3 ruckmen playing in the seniors at Sandy - hardly ideal. Then with a few seniors out injured at both Saints and Sandy, we would see an unbalanced team of mostly raw kids get belted.

Our development will improve dramatically IMO when our list profile is better balanced. That comes with time and preseasons (two more IMO).


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