Seriously. What next?

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damienc
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Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699325Post damienc »

Free agency has proven not to be what everyone thought.

For free agency to occur, a player has to be free to jump ship. Most importantly they have to want to. And they haven’t. That’s the bit I find surprising.

Take Dustin Martin and Josh Kelly ( not a free agent but out of contract), both undeniable superstars. Clubs, including ours were prepared to throw millions of dollars their way. Did they take the bait? No sireee. Both have signed/in the process of signing with their existing clubs.

Loyalty is a rare thing these days. Martin and Kelly are loyal. You can’t criticise, but I am surprised. Dangerfield did jump ship, but he had compelling, personal reasons for doing so that really had nothing much to do with financial inducement.

So….where does that leave our footy club? No superstars of any kind on the signing horizon. None that we know of. And 2018 in danger of becoming a repeat of 2017.

They may seem like strong words but some things need to happen for that scenario to change.

Ok.

We have two top ten draft picks in a weak and shallow draft. The weakest its been for a long time.

In my view you really need picks 1-5 in this draft to have a show at getting someone decent. Again that may seem like a harsh assessment but this draft is as weak as.

In any case, even if we do get a good prospect, or even two good prospects they will be works in progress.

As a club we have to hope we have existing players who can take that next step. From good to excellent. How many do we have who might be eligible? Billings? Gresham? Acres? Steele? I’ve seen Acres do some exceptional things as well as basic, dumb, rookie errors. Can he take the next step?

What about Billings? He’s proven he can play as a contributing forward, does he need to spend more time in the midfield? God knows we need someone with elite disposal in the midfield. The same could be said for Gresham.

Jack Steele had a superb 2017. With the benefit of a full pre season can he take the next step? Add real offensive capability to his aggressive attack on the footy. Win the hard footy and break tackles and lines?

We are desperate for a line breaking midfielder.

Love to see what O’Kearny and Rice can do. They both looked good in the VFL. Can they step up? What about Freeman? Speed is his weapon. Will his hamstrings hold up?

I guess what I am trying to say is if nothing changes nothing changes. There is a real danger of history repeating itself. In 2017 we were expected to improve and we did in some areas but overall we went backwards. Unless we start doing a lot of things differently 2018 won’t be any different.
Last edited by damienc on Fri 15 Sep 2017 7:10pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699328Post carn_sainter »

I disagree that picks 7 and 8 are not worth much because it's a weak draft. Very, very rarely has a good player come out of the draft good. They all take work and luck.

Picks 7 and 8 are valuable and we can still improve because of them even if we don't draft Dangerfield and Martin with those picks.

Plenty of success stories from far deeper in the draft than 8. Leigh Montagna. Sam Fisher. The list goes on.

I just disagree with this attitude that suggests the saints ourselves are incapable of developing good players and/or that we don't have the patience.

If the players had such a fatalistic attitude that without a brownlow medallist we can't challenge or improve, they wouldn't turn up.


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699330Post Beno88 »

These posts are becoming ridiculous. How many sky is falling threads do we need?


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699331Post stonecold »

Beno88 wrote:These posts are becoming ridiculous. How many sky is falling threads do we need?

Until the sky falls in maybe!!!!!

Too many negative Nancy's!!!!!


'Cause StoneCold Said So'!!!!!

We will be great again once Billy is back playing!!!!!


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699332Post dragit »

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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699333Post Enrico_Misso »

Adelaide are generally regarded as the best performed side this year and the clear favourite for the premiership.

Adelaide have ZERO top 10 draft picks on their list - their highest is 11.

So you don't HAVE to have top 10 picks to put together a good side.
A deep spread of talent, good list management, and good coaching/development is much more important.


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699336Post The OtherThommo »

Enrico_Misso wrote:Adelaide are generally regarded as the best performed side this year and the clear favourite for the premiership.

Adelaide have ZERO top 10 draft picks on their list - their highest is 11.

So you don't HAVE to have top 10 picks to put together a good side.
A deep spread of talent, good list management, and good coaching/development is much more important.
I noted that when it was mentioned last week, Mr Misso. Adelaide have also had a fair bit of upheaval in recent years.

Also noted that Sydney had 10 of their 22 who had come off the rookie list (at some stage, not necessarily at Sydney).

Wholeheartedly agree with your concluding line.


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699341Post SMS »

carn_sainter wrote:I disagree that picks 7 and 8 are not worth much because it's a weak draft. Very, very rarely has a good player come out of the draft good. They all take work and luck.

Picks 7 and 8 are valuable and we can still improve because of them even if we don't draft Dangerfield and Martin with those picks.

Plenty of success stories from far deeper in the draft than 8. Leigh Montagna. Sam Fisher. The list goes on.

I just disagree with this attitude that suggests the saints ourselves are incapable of developing good players and/or that we don't have the patience.

If the players had such a fatalistic attitude that without a brownlow medallist we can't challenge or improve, they wouldn't turn up.
Weak Draft starts at 20 or so. the top ten players from every year can still be great.

STEPHENSON and COFFIELD. Watch thier games tell me you wouldnt be happy with those 6"3 fast skilled blokes. They could be anything.

If we get higgins though ILL SPEW UP!


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699343Post satchmo »

dragit wrote:Image
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*Allegedly.

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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699344Post Sainternist »

Yep, the football gods have conspired against us, again. What's new!


Curb your enthusiasm - you’re a St.Kilda supporter!!
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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699356Post parkeysainter »

Where is Con G Negative Nuts when you need to him to make it worse?


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699360Post thejiggingsaint »

damienc wrote:Free agency has proven not to be what everyone thought.

For free agency to occur, a player has to be free to jump ship. Most importantly they have to want to. And they haven’t. That’s the bit I find surprising.

Take Dustin Martin and Josh Kelly, both undeniable superstars. Clubs, including ours were prepared to throw millions of dollars their way. Did they take the bait? No sireee. Both have signed/in the process of signing with their existing clubs.

Loyalty is a rare thing these days. Martin and Kelly are loyal. You can’t criticise, but I am surprised. Dangerfield did jump ship, but he had compelling, personal reasons for doing so that really had nothing much to do with financial inducement.

So….where does that leave our footy club? No superstars of any kind on the signing horizon. None that we know of. And 2018 in danger of becoming a repeat of 2017.

They may seem like strong words but some things need to happen for that scenario to change.

Ok.

We have two top ten draft picks in a weak and shallow draft. The weakest its been for a long time.

In my view you really need picks 1-5 in this draft to have a show at getting someone decent. Again that may seem like a harsh assessment but this draft is as weak as.

In any case, even if we do get a good prospect, or even two good prospects they will be works in progress.

As a club we have to hope we have existing players who can take that next step. From good to excellent. How many do we have who might be eligible? Billings? Gresham? Acres? Steele? I’ve seen Acres do some exceptional things as well as basic, dumb, rookie errors. Can he take the next step?

What about Billings? He’s proven he can play as a contributing forward, does he need to spend more time in the midfield? God knows we need someone with elite disposal in the midfield. The same could be said for Gresham.

Jack Steele had a superb 2017. With the benefit of a full pre season can he take the next step? Add real offensive capability to his aggressive attack on the footy. Win the hard footy and break tackles and lines?

We are desperate for a line breaking midfielder.

Love to see what O’Kearny and Rice can do. They both looked good in the VFL. Can they step up? What about Freeman? Speed is his weapon. Will his hamstrings hold up?

I guess what I am trying to say is if nothing changes nothing changes. There is a real danger of history repeating itself. In 2017 we were expected to improve and we did in some areas but overall we went backwards. Unless we start doing a lot of things differently 2018 won’t be any different.
SO! Can I take it that you're chomping on the bit to get right into it again! Banging down the doors at Seaford to renew your membership..... or even UPGRADE? :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Relax mate, don't be worrying NOW about something you'll possibly not see happening ( a repeat of 2017 ) why worry NOW, take a rest, because 2018 will be here before you know it! Enjoy the break!
Have a nice summer, and let 2018 take care of itself!


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699382Post Sainternist »

parkeysainter wrote:Where is Con G Negative Nuts when you need to him to make it worse?
Gora got himself a week on the sidelines to cool his heels.


Curb your enthusiasm - you’re a St.Kilda supporter!!
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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699384Post Moods »

I laugh when ppl say it's a weak draft. This time last year it was going to be a superdraft! No-one can really tell. No-one.


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699389Post saintsRrising »

damienc wrote:Free agency has proven not to be what everyone thought.

For free agency to occur, a player has to be free to jump ship. Most importantly they have to want to. And they haven’t. That’s the bit I find surprising..
Sorry but a player not wanting to jump ship is just as much a part of Free Agency as swapping clubs is. Free Agency is about having the ability chose where a player wants to play, and that may well be where he already is.

Having said that Free Agency was always doomed to be what the AFL intended. They naively thought that what would happen is that some of best players would go to bottom clubs purely for the $$$ and thereby help to even out the competition. The AFL completely misread the situation.

Whereas by and large if a very good player moves it is to a club with a genuine finals chance, and in particular a reasonable chance of a flag within the period o that player's immediate playing life. Exceptions can be where a player want to return to their home state.

The AFLs desire on levelling the competition was further compound the other way as the club gaining the player does not have to cough up any trade picks for that player!!!! So a club like Hawks can bag Frawley and laugh all the way to another shiny premiership cup. The other clubs actually have to effectively pay for their FA trade as the compo picks bump all clubs back. So one again the less successful clubs help to maintain the more successful ones.

In the main middling a lower clubs get FA's who were denied opportunity at their previous clubs, or who are a bit past it.

Then when FA was up and about Clubs have gotten smarter about keeping good players in contract too so that the FA pool is smaller than was intended.

How many players only move for money?
- Buddy. Yes the cash helped, but he mainly wanted to escape to Sydney where he can live a lower profile life. His breakdown showed that he needed this
- Gablett. Yes, but his $$$ were ridiculously high thanks to the AFL and their marketing top-up.
-Judd. Yes, but again thanks to the AFL the Blues via VISY were allowed to employ Judd on huge extra money to be a VISY Sustainability Ambassador. What a rort that was, a $million extra to basically just drive a Prius car around as he did bugga all else to earn it.



So back on the Saints. Sadly our club fell for it with a key plank being to land BigFish FAs!!!!! I doubt we will land one genuine BigFish FA. The most we may get is a player like Rocky and he is not BigFish.

If we do ever land one it will be when we are successful, and not rebuilding.

In our rebuilding phase FA is about landing players like Membrey, Robbo and Brown.
damienc wrote: Take Dustin Martin and Josh Kelly, both undeniable superstars. Clubs, including ours were prepared to throw millions of dollars their way. Did they take the bait? No sireee. Both have signed/in the process of signing with their existing clubs.
.
PS. Kelly was not a Free Agent


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699400Post saintspremiers »

Enrico_Misso wrote:Adelaide are generally regarded as the best performed side this year and the clear favourite for the premiership.

Adelaide have ZERO top 10 draft picks on their list - their highest is 11.

So you don't HAVE to have top 10 picks to put together a good side.
A deep spread of talent, good list management, and good coaching/development is much more important.
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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699404Post damienc »

PS. Kelly was not a Free Agent[/quote]


Apologies. My dumb mistake.


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699410Post suss »

Just saw Rockliff's wife has had a kid. Saw it on my Twitter feed. Was liked by Ameet Bains. Probs coincidence but you never know!


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699415Post To the top »

Free Agency is all about a subject to keep the AFL in the media

The AFL want the code in the headlines every day and Free Agency is designed to do that


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699419Post SaintPav »

Nice theory and it is a side benefit but it's more about the AFL being legally challenged on restraint of trade etc.


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699422Post To the top »

Restraint of Trade dates from 1978 and Brian Adamson transferring to Norwood from West Perth

And after winning in the Courts, Adamson went on to kick 5 in a Grand Final won by 1 point from Sturt


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699497Post MickThomas »

parkeysainter wrote:Where is Con G Negative Nuts when you need to him to make it worse?
Banned for a week, from Tues 12 Sept.
Back soon.

I like his posts
One of my favourite posters


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699509Post SaintPav »

Stalker!!!


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699534Post The Recruit »

Josh Kelly is not loyal just smart. Loyal would be to sign for five years at 800k at GWS

If kelly takes two years at 800k now, he ensures his later years where injuries and form can leave you very quickly, are stitched up.
2 years at Gws then when he is 24...6-8 years at stkilda or whoever.

If he takes 6-8 now he may not get another contract at 29-30 and would effect be doing himself or of two years pay.
No one will be loyal to GWS at the end of 2019...why would they be...???


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Re: Seriously. What next?

Post: # 1699535Post Vazelos »

The Recruit wrote:Josh Kelly is not loyal just smart. Loyal would be to sign for five years at 800k at GWS

If kelly takes two years at 800k now, he ensures his later years where injuries and form can leave you very quickly, are stitched up.
2 years at Gws then when he is 24...6-8 years at stkilda or whoever.

If he takes 6-8 now he may not get another contract at 29-30 and would effect be doing himself or of two years pay.
No one will be loyal to GWS at the end of 2019...why would they be...???
Spot on analysis well done..


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