Critical look at our list

[Moods]

Improved

Jake Carlisle - I have been one of the few who had been critical of him. I have questioned his intensity at the contest on occasion. There is NO doubting his ability though. Had a very good year and in the end was possibly our best player.
Jade Gresham - As with all young players his trajectory isn't always upwards. However he was a shining light for me this year. Often looks dangerous but fails on occasions to finish off his good work. One of the few that has class written all over him. His last game of the year was superb. Has he improved as much as we hoped? Not sure, but he is definitely the future.
Shane Savage - 2nd half of the year was very good and he finally started to provide the consistent run off half back we have been looking for. His kicking has also improved. Far better year.
Seb Ross - Came of age for mine. Great season.
Dylan Roberton - another player I have been critical of in the past. Mainly because I believed he made too many skill errors under pressure. Kicking, decision making and marking all improved this year (we'll delete Sunday's game from the memory I think)
Billy Longer Maybe it was Stonecold's constant badgering that this bloke is the real deal, maybe it's the fact that we have no-one else on our list that can ruck. I had never been a fan. Always thought he was a big lump who could jump high in a contest and did little else. He won me over in the last 6 weeks especially. His attack on the contest was first rate. Have to go back to Everitt and Lazar to find a saints ruckman who consistently wins tap outs - and wins plenty to our advantage. Started to do more around the ground as well as his confidence grew. Needs to take the next step which is marking around the ground, but I have optimism that he will whereas at the start of the year I had none that he could.
Jimmy Webster - Best year yet from Jimmy. Attacked the contest, provided good run and as his confidence grew so did his skills. Needs to improve further and cut out inexplicable errors.
Jack Sinclair - Finally looked like an AFL player. Was cleaner with the ball and started to make good decisions with it. Appeared to have improved his tank.
Tim Membury - I'm a huge fan of this guy. He's a genuine 3rd tall. He's fit, has a good pair of hands and is a nice reliable kick. Problem is we are relying on him to be a 2nd and sometimes the 1st tall. When he got suspended it hurt the team more than most realised it would.

Stagnated

Luke Dunstan - Had some excellent games, but also remains very frustrating player. For a bloke who has been in the system as long as he has now (I think 6-7 years) we need far more consistency. Disposal can be a concern and his opponents can run off him easily hence one part of the reason why our mid field gets slaughtered. Could be argued that he has improved but not to the degree that I would have liked.
Blake Acres - Another who had an okish year and had his moments. However we need Blake to be exploding out of packs and taking some great marks around the ground. Could easily argue that match committee isn't his best friend and doesn't get the opportunities others are afforded. Needs to be cleaner with the ball. Looks like he will be a player, but we need next year to jump into becoming that player.
Jarryn Geary - Gears is one of the elder statesman so improvement is not going to be as pronounced. However last year he made great strides and on occasions this year I thought he was going to go to another level. Stagnated a little but as long as he doesn't go backwards I'm happy with that. Did a reasonable job as skipper, but onfield leadership appears to have been identified as an issue.
Jack Newnes - Just haven't seen the improvement we have all been hoping for from this guy. Doesn't win enough clearances and is still making silly errors. If this is as good as he's going to get, we may need to look at a trade.
Josh Bruce - Has stagnated after a breakout season 2 years ago. Doesn't appear to have the tank to play too much up the ground and often looks exhausted. Kicks way too many points for a key fwd which is letting us down. In short we struggle to rely on him consistently.
Paddy McCartin - No-one polarises opinions quite like Paddy amongst saints fans. Mainly because we all so desperately want him, need him, to succeed. Next year is his 4th year. No Roo, injury free hopefully and he gets a good run at it. So far, for mine, he appears very underwhelming. He presented initially in his career as a little overweight, with a poor tank and not as tall as I would have liked for a player who doesn't run well. From there I haven't seen a great deal that's changed. His kicking for goal is disappointing and sometimes his hands appear very good and other times he fumbles badly. Am very worried about him, not just because we used a #1 pick on him, but because right now I'm struggling to see him becoming the player we so desperately need him to be. He's one concussion away from retiring and in a contact sport like footy, that worries me also - not just for our sake (supporters) but mainly for his sake. Seems like a great kid full of character and I'll be barracking hard for him.
Darren Minchington - Another who hasn't been given a great deal of opportunity but has been on our list for a few years. Can't afford to stagnate as his current level doesn't cut it at AFL. Just doesn't do enough at this level. Can't impact games like we need him to.

Unknown Quantities
McKenzie - skills and decision making need work. was given an opportunity but I've placed him in this category because we simply need more from a young bloke who's been om the list for a few years.
Brandon White - I liked this kid when he played and can see real promise. Needs to work on defensive side of game, however his skills look good, something we desperately need.
Nathan Freeman - Freeman hasn't played yet and is the classic unknown quantity.



Gone backwards

Tom Hickey - Hard for anyone to argue about this. Rarely got an opportunity this year but his first pre-season game was embarrassing followed by a very good practice match. Wallowed in the reserves all year and after an exceptional year last year he now finds himself at the crossroads and could well be traded if the right trade pops up.
Jack Steven - some would say that this call is very harsh. However Jack sets a high bar and is regarded as our best player. As such I can only presume he is remunerated commensurate with that standing. Very disappointing season for mine. Couldn't handle a tag and his disposal was often very poor. At his best he ignites our team with his breakaway speed and clearance work. I have read on here the excuses used for his poor season (groin injury I think ppl said) I can only hope this is true, because if he wants to step up into the Selwood, Sloan, Dangerfield class or anywhere near it, he has to perform far more consistently than he did. Once you take the field you are fit to play, otherwise rest.
David Armitage - Really harsh call I know. But we need Armo desperately if for no other reason his leadership. He's gome backwards when he did play (not often) and was a big reason why we didn't improve as we would have liked. BTW - I KNOW HE'S INJURED. This is a critical look at our list however regardless of excuses or reasons.
Nathan WRIGHT - Bull at a gate and his heart can't be questioned, but I think the decision will be made for him. Not AFL standard with his skills.
Jack LONIE - Simply not up to it. Too light and his decision making is poor. His around the cnr screw kick from 30m out on Sunday indicated to me mental weakness. From all reports dominates at VFL level so possibly there is hope yet, but not from me.
Mav Weller - Probably equal with Hickey as our most disappointing player this year. Unlike Hickey he was given heaps of opportunities this year (some say too many) Kicking for goal was embarrassing to the point that the coach played him off half back on Sunday. Wasn't able to apply pressure like we need and couldn't impact the game like he has in years gone by.
Roo - Yeah I know that sounds harsh but quite simply a player as great as Roo sustaining his brilliance for so long, the team just couldn't cope with him not contributing like he had. Certainly not blaming Roo for that as he is my favourite saints player from the time I have been supporting the club. It's more a harsh reflection of our team and particularly the fwd line. We have been too reliant on him. He prepared to play mid this year and leaned up accordingly, however with his injuries he was forced to play fwd. As a result, first time ever I saw him unable to hold his ground in the contest or get separation on his opponent. we needed a season from him like Hodge gave the hawks - just consistent. Injuries had finally caught up with the great man though.
Joey - To be expected at this point of his career, and he certainly wasn't poor. Just unable to give us anything extra that we needed. Had some bad games but also some good games. Joey's longevity has largely been because he rarely plays poorly. rarely dominates either but always does what we need. This year there were poor games however.



In summary - with Hickey, Steven and Weller having poor seasons and Armo unable to get on the field this impacted our ability to improve like we needed to. Roo has been such an integral part of this club that his demise was always going to come as a shock. These 5 players before the start of 2017 would all have been regarded in our best 10 players I believe (or close to it)

Most of the players that have stagnated are relatively young, however all have played at least 3 years. We can't afford for these players to stagnate, we need improvement and in many cases drastic improvement. It's notable that most of the players that have improved come from our backline and the players who have stagnated that have gone backwards or stagnated are our mids and fwds

I haven't assessed certain players for various reasons - Either they played as expected and contributed (Gilbo) or 1st year at club like Steele and Stevens so hard to say they improved etc.Young guys like Battle, Long, Rice haven't been around long enough to give a realistic expectation on how they impact our fortunes just yet. hate to say it - but guys like Holmes and Pierce are pretty much irrelevant at the moment.

[fugazi]

Good post .
Fair assessment.

Newnes is one who slips under the radar....had a good start to the year from memory but didn't take it anywhere.

Dunstan had a good last month. I thought he was almost gone.

Carlisle has been great, another pre season and he'll be in All Australian contention. Leave him at CHB.

[shrodes]

Very harsh on Dunstan. Though par for the course on here. This is only his 4th season, he's 22. And injury affected a non-trivial amount of that time.

He had never played VFL before this season, I reckon getting dropped was just the rocket he needed to kick it up a notch.

I feel like if you're going to give Savage an Improved mark (which is deserved IMO since his drop to VFL), you should also do the same for Dunstan.

[Impatient Sainter]

Seb Ross?

[George27]

Thanks Moods. Well done, and done with respect.

You left out Billings ( one of the improvers ). I would have elevated Dunstan to that list too, and probably Acres as well

[Moods]

Seb Ross?

You're right! Just read through and somehow I edited him out accidentally. My views on Jack may well go against the grain, but I had him in the stagnated group . Once again, like Steven, because the bar is so high for him. He's into his 4th or 5th season next year. We need better disposal and we can't accept his goal kicking. He was recruited because supposedly he was an elite decision maker with silky skills. 23 goals 38 behind is not silky. Having said that, he is impacting games and finding the ball. He just can be so much more. He's one of the reasons the team has stagnated I believe. He's signed a $500k contract reportedly so I expect him above all others to clean up that area of his game next year. He could be a Nathan Brown type player. We NEED that

[GregPackhamsHeadband]

Agree about Billings, Moods. His potential is enormous and anyone who gets 61 scoring shots in a season is a top shelf forward. Gresh got 60 as well, but between them they kicked 53.68. For players of their caliber that's not good enough. Billings should be elite, as I believe he will be. Gresh too. Billings was the best kick in his draft, both at camp testing and in the opinions of the U/18 watchers. The exciting bit is he, Acres, Gresham and McCartin have so much more to offer. Throw Freeman in there as well. Just imagine if those five could play to their maximum potential. It would change things considerably.

[Moods]

Agree about Billings, Moods. His potential is enormous and anyone who gets 61 scoring shots in a season is a top shelf forward. Gresh got 60 as well, but between them they kicked 53.68. For players of their caliber that's not good enough. Billings should be elite, as I believe he will be. Gresh too. Billings was the best kick in his draft, both at camp testing and in the opinions of the U/18 watchers. The exciting bit is he, Acres, Gresham and McCartin have so much more to offer. Throw Freeman in there as well. Just imagine if those five could play to their maximum potential. It would change things considerably.

Agree completely. And it's ok for me to write long winded posts about our list and how certain players need to step up - but the group who need to step up the most is our coaches. As a collective. They need to get the best out of these kids. Right now, I don't reckon they are. I'm not the biggest GT fan on this forum but bloody hell - he got the best out of an exciting bunch of kids. Most were into their 4th seasons too when this occurred. In fact we set the bar so high we ended up sacking him because he didn't believe he could take us any further. Billings and Gresham are silk. Acres looks like he could be anything. Right now they all appear as if something is holding them back slightly. Not sure if it's game plan, players around them, too much pressure what?

[Moods]

Seb Ross?

Seb Ross I had written very little about (it was edited out as well) - basically in the improved group and I expect him to finish very high in our B&F. Stepped up this year. Needs to grab a few to go with him next year.

Having said that - in a couple of critical games at the back end of the year he was a little disappointing. My own personal opinion is structures. Seb needs players running by to dish off. He can break the lines to a certain extent but in the Essendon game he was like a headless chook and got caught a few times with the ball. His kicking went up a notch this year. He needs to impact the scoreboard to become elite. Has a long raking kick, and would be good to see him kick 20 goals next year

[dragit]

They need to get the best out of these kids. Right now, I don't reckon they are.

Agree, tony mentioning multiple times that so much of the game is played "between the ears" and that we haven't turned up mentally.

Making sure the players are switched on mentally is the very minimum the coaches need to get right.

Dunstan's form was chalk and cheese after getting some counselling, every player needs to be at their optimum to succeed at elite sport.

[GregPackhamsHeadband]

The development side of things definitely needs an overhaul. We have fallen behind others and we can't afford that to happen again. Be like the cats, swans, crows etc. Not like GC, Freo, The filth and Norf. Clubs who are going nowhere. AR clearly needs help. Time and again it has been shown that while draft order is important, development once you get them in is much more crucial for long term success.

[older saint]

Agree with a lot of the OP. My opinion differs own;

As others said harsh on Dunstan only a 4th year player and really performed in line with Savage when both came back in

I think Acres improved on last year, not at massive rate but was more consistent and agree with comments re where played and match committee

I think Steven stagnated rather than backward as carried an injury for second half of the season.

Extremely harsh on Armitage considering missed most of the year with injury ( should be excluded in same way Goddard would be ). Shouldn't have played the Collingwood game

Very kind to minchington

Otherwise not far off IMO .Good discussion

[Sainternist]

Jarryn Geary - Gears is one of the elder statesman so improvement is not going to be as pronounced. However last year he made great strides and on occasions this year I thought he was going to go to another level. Stagnated a little but as long as he doesn't go backwards I'm happy with that. Did a reasonable job as skipper, but onfield leadership appears to have been identified as an issue.

I disagree. Geary's first year as captain was always going to be a big test. I think he passed with flying colours. Was a tremendous leader all season. Was very strong in defence. Boy, his absence was noticeable in the last game against Richmond.

[Moods]

Agree with a lot of the OP. My opinion differs own;

As others said harsh on Dunstan only a 4th year player and really performed in line with Savage when both came back in

I think Acres improved on last year, not at massive rate but was more consistent and agree with comments re where played and match committee

I think Steven stagnated rather than backward as carried an injury for second half of the season.

Extremely harsh on Armitage considering missed most of the year with injury ( should be excluded in same way Goddard would be ). Shouldn't have played the Collingwood game

Very kind to minchington

Otherwise not far off IMO .Good discussion

I hear what you're saying re Dunstan and agree he did play some excellent games when brought back. I'm measuring his improvement against my own expectations of how much I expected him to improve. For mine I was expecting more.
As for Arno, I acknowledge that it's ridiculously harsh, however the comment isn't based on fairness, moreso his loss to the team and how it's impacted the team. Not his fault but his loss is killing us and when he did play he's not the same player. Same goes for Steven. There's always reasons why players don't perform, some legitimate. The fact is he was no where near as effective as the last couple of years, which means he went backwards. Not saying he can't get back or better to where he was. We definitely need him to.

[GregPackhamsHeadband]

Steven was nowhere near full fitness after the punctured lung. He'll be better for the rest over summer. Something a lot of people have forgotten is that the injury fairy turned on us this year. 2106 was a dream and she waved her magic wand over us. This year, we must have scorned her. Just a fortnight ago, we had 11 players out. Missing this year at various stages were Roo, Stuv, Armo, Dempster (completely) Joey, Goddard, McCartin, Hickey, Freeman, Gilbert, Long, Stevens, Webster, Wright and Minchington. All missed substantial chunks of the season. That has an impact, especially when you lack lots of star quality in the first place.

[Sainternist]

Steven was nowhere near full fitness after the punctured lung. He'll be better for the rest over summer. Something a lot of people have forgotten is that the injury fairy turned on us this year. 2106 was a dream and she waved her magic wand over us. This year, we must have scorned her. Just a fortnight ago, we had 11 players out. Missing this year at various stages were Roo, Stuv, Armo, Dempster (completely) Joey, Goddard, McCartin, Hickey, Freeman, Gilbert, Long, Stevens, Webster, Wright and Minchington. All missed substantial chunks of the season. That has an impact, especially when you lack lots of star quality in the first place.

100% correct!

[desertsaint]

dunstan (thanks dave) got drafted same year as billings and acres - only one more year in the system than sinclar, lonie,and mackenzie.
so hardly been around for years, let alone 6 or 7.. to say he stagnated when he was finally given vfl time (after carrying the heavy work in the midfield from day one 2014 and two shoulder reconstruction) and came back to be our best player over the last six rounds suggest you haven't been watching his game. how could you expect more than that, unless you expected him to be our best from round one. he's looking better than ever and we should be excited at the prospect of him finally getting into the type of form we all hoped for.

[Con Gorozidis]

If you arent already worried about our development then you should be after this:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/one-pl ... 923f4db4df

Our best first year player? Rohan Marshall. Fair enough. I like him. But we only give the kid a single game.

Just not good enough imo.

Very poor development program.

That is the the lowest number of games played in the AFLPA 18 club list:

2017’S NOMINEES FOR THE BEST FIRST-YEAR PLAYER AWARD:


Adelaide: Jordan Gallucci

Brisbane Lions: Alex Witherden

Carlton: Sam Petrevski-Seton

Collingwood: Callum Brown

Essendon: Andrew McGrath

Fremantle: Luke Ryan

Geelong: Tom Stewart

Gold Coast Suns: Ben Ainsworth

GWS Giants: Tim Taranto

Hawthorn: James Cousins

Melbourne: Mitch Hannan

North Melbourne: Jy Simpkin

Port Adelaide: Sam Powell-Pepper

Richmond: Shai Bolton

St Kilda: Rowan Marshall

Sydney: Will Hayward

West Coast: Francis Watson

Western Bulldogs: Lewis Young

[Jacks Back]

If you arent already worried about our development then you should be after this:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/one-pl ... 923f4db4df

Our best first year player? Rohan Marshall. Fair enough. I like him. But we only give the kid a single game.

Just not good enough imo.

Very poor development program.

Long played 2 games, Marshall 1 game and Battle 1 game. That was it for new players wasn't it? White played 3 I think after one last year. Not enough debutantes for a middle of the table (or lower) side. Smacks of Richo playing favourites and not developing the side.

[Con Gorozidis]

If you arent already worried about our development then you should be after this:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/one-pl ... 923f4db4df

Our best first year player? Rohan Marshall. Fair enough. I like him. But we only give the kid a single game.

Just not good enough imo.

Very poor development program.

Long played 2 games, Marshall 1 game and Battle 1 game. That was it for new players wasn't it? White played 3 I think after one last year. Not enough debutantes for a middle of the table (or lower) side. Smacks of Richo playing favourites and not developing the side.

Yes.

The award is for BEST FIRST YEAR player. Marshall got our club's nomination ahead of Long and Battle. Which is understandable and fair enough.

White is not a first year player so not eligible for the award at all. White would have been up against Parish, Gresham, Riolo, Mills and Adams etc.
Pretty disappointing for me that White and Marshall havent played more games.

[Moods]

If you arent already worried about our development then you should be after this:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/one-pl ... 923f4db4df

Our best first year player? Rohan Marshall. Fair enough. I like him. But we only give the kid a single game.

Just not good enough imo.

Very poor development program.

Long played 2 games, Marshall 1 game and Battle 1 game. That was it for new players wasn't it? White played 3 I think after one last year. Not enough debutantes for a middle of the table (or lower) side. Smacks of Richo playing favourites and not developing the side.

What it smacks of is Richo believing that we were better than what we actually were. Either our kids are terrible or our development program is terrible. Otherwise how do we justify not giving our kids any game time?

[Moods]

dunstan (thanks dave) got drafted same year as billings and acres - only one more year in the system than sinclar, lonie,and mackenzie.
so hardly been around for years, let alone 6 or 7.. to say he stagnated when he was finally given vfl time (after carrying the heavy work in the midfield from day one 2014 and two shoulder reconstruction) and came back to be our best player over the last six rounds suggest you haven't been watching his game. how could you expect more than that, unless you expected him to be our best from round one. he's looking better than ever and we should be excited at the prospect of him finally getting into the type of form we all hoped for.

It's a fair point desertsaint - and I concede that I was of the belief that he had been around a lot longer than he actually had. I think because of the number of games that he has played.

I thought his first half of the year in particular was poor. I did concede in my post that he has played a couple of excellent games in the back half of the year. I acknowledge that and hope like hell that it continues. He makes some awful errors with the ball (running into an open goal on Sunday and kicking the ball into the post springs to mind) but I like his persistence and hope like hell that he carries that form into next year. My opinion is based over the whole year, although I see that his last 6-8 weeks could mean many would mark him as improved.

My feeling is that we simply cannot succeed with the one paced midfield that we have - Steele, Dunstan, Stevens, Ross. they all need to become elite runners and cover more ground both offensively and defensively or we need to generate some pace in there. We have Jack Steven but no-one else. Freeman is the missing piece of the puzzle and to a lesser extent ACRES

[saintsRrising]

Luke Dunstan - For a bloke who has been in the system as long as he has now (I think 6-7 years) we need far more consistency. .

4 seasons.

[Moods]

Luke Dunstan - For a bloke who has been in the system as long as he has now (I think 6-7 years) we need far more consistency. .

4 seasons.

I still say that's enough to suggest that he's no longer a baby in the system. I have conceded in the above post that I was wrong re the amount of seasons - but doesn't change my outlook on him dramatically. Dunstan, Acres, Billings, Steele all need to improve next season. This is the group we're relying on to carry us to the next level - as well as Longer, Gresham, and Sinclair.

[SaintPav]

If you arent already worried about our development then you should be after this:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/one-pl ... 923f4db4df

Our best first year player? Rohan Marshall. Fair enough. I like him. But we only give the kid a single game.

Just not good enough imo.

Very poor development program.

Long played 2 games, Marshall 1 game and Battle 1 game. That was it for new players wasn't it? White played 3 I think after one last year. Not enough debutantes for a middle of the table (or lower) side. Smacks of Richo playing favourites and not developing the side.

Long played 4 games.