List cloggers.....who are they?

[Teflon]

No not a bashing thread but a genuine thread to single out who has to for us to go forward - we need class across a few lines so no point wasting time.

Lonnie
Weller
Wright

Fringe
Holmes/Pierce/Hickey?
N Brown (good this year but moving forward)

Who else?

[MickThomas]

Minchington- has been in and out without showing consistent strong form.

[Sainternist]

N Brown (good this year but moving forward)

Pfffttt He's hardly what you'd call a list clogger!

He has at least another year left in his career. He's been an absolute bargain and brought us tremendous stability down back.

[St Lenny]

We have too many players who having shocking skills and not enough leaders. Are we happy to keep good, average players?

[Teflon]

N Brown (good this year but moving forward)

Pfffttt He's hardly what you'd call a list clogger!

He has at least another year left in his career. He's been an absolute bargain and brought us tremendous stability down back.

He's not this year but he ain't the answer in future years hence fringe? Agree others ahead right now
Agree Minchington also gets a mention
This is about building a list that can seriously challenge - hard calls will need to be made..

[fugazi]

Clearly Lonie, Weller and Wright.

I for one hope Monty stays for another year.
Even if he plays mostly seconds or moves into a Sam Mitchell player/coach role for 2018.

He is the last of the successful core from 2009/10 and the group could still use his leadership and professionalism.

Look at North this year bereft of their leaders.

[Yorkeys]

Not so much list cloggers as perhaps can't win finals with them all in the side:
the much maligned Mav; Mr Savage, serviceable but 5/10; jack l, too small; N. Wright looks to have not fully regained his former stuff after the leg break; starting to wonder about Jack Newnes; and Koby S. Too harsh? Also wish J. Steele had a left foot, gets into a heap of trouble always trying to get onto his right and telegraphs it. But 2018 will bring new and exciting talent to the fore, and hopefully aft as well as midships. Go Sainters into the post Roo era.

[mightysainters]

List cloggers who will never make it (who have played a game)
Lonie
Weller
Pierce
Holmes

[Teflon]

Savage is interesting ..... he gets let off a but cause he can kick it 60 usually hit a target which we lack so badly but does he do it enough to continually demand a spot???

He's fringe clogger for sure

[saintsRrising]

Our recruiters.

In essence they are building a team of average players. Individually you can look at each player and think, yes maybe this guy can play AFL football.

But as a collective our recruiters just cannot seem to draft any guys that become good or better, let along stars or guns. Moreso relative to where they were taken.

Most team have some very good players from their late picks, whereas the Saints have???

Look at each player we have drafted and rate him as exceeding the pick, about right, or lower value than that pick. We would have very few out-performs. Gresham and Sincs as a rookie (and that may have been more to do withBbillings than our recruiters!).

Luckily our trading how been better our draft picking with Membrey and Robo as FAs for nothing helping to prop things up. Plus the FA Brown for depth in defense.

Trades for Carlisle and Steele have been very good. Stevens has offered value, though is a depth player.

[Vazelos]

Wright
Lonie
Holmes
Pierce
Minchington

[parkeysainter]

Lonie and Wright probably will go
Plus Holmes
Minchington might struggle (it depends on trades)

[MickThomas]

If you're worried about Koby, I think he's more than made up for Armo.
He gets the ball a lot, competes well, tries to kick or hb to advantage, and we are lucky he's in the middle.
I think he stays and he's valuable, not just as depth.
Surround him with skill like Martin or Kelly, and watch him get even better.
I think he's more value than Seb, purely because Seb often just bombs away without looking, so his big numbers are wasted.
Buckley said about Tom Mitchell's non-tag
-" but he doesn't hurt you!"
Exactly the same with Seb. Doesn't look to help the team with his disposals.

[Sainternist]

N Brown (good this year but moving forward)

Pfffttt He's hardly what you'd call a list clogger!

He has at least another year left in his career. He's been an absolute bargain and brought us tremendous stability down back.

He's not this year but he ain't the answer in future years hence fringe? Agree others ahead right now
Agree Minchington also gets a mention
This is about building a list that can seriously challenge - hard calls will need to be made..

He played all 22 games this year. That doesn't make him a fringe player at all. His experience is invaluable when it comes to building a list. In my mind, he'll be playing on next year. Not sure why you'd be suggesting he'd be one of the first to be getting delisted.

[mad saint guy]

I would define list cloggers as players who clearly aren't in our best 22 and have no realistic hope of improving to the point that they will be in the future.

Holmes
Lonie
Minchington
Pierce
Wright

Mind-boggling that three of those players are contracted for 2018. I would add Armitage to that list for injury reasons as well, though if he manages to get fit for a few weeks you could say he'd be in our best 22. I don't think there is a realistic chance of him playing more than 15 games in a season though.

[Proph3t of egan]

If you're worried about Koby, I think he's more than made up for Armo.
He gets the ball a lot, competes well, tries to kick or hb to advantage, and we are lucky he's in the middle.
I think he stays and he's valuable, not just as depth.
Surround him with skill like Martin or Kelly, and watch him get even better.
I think he's more value than Seb, purely because Seb often just bombs away without looking, so his big numbers are wasted.
Buckley said about Tom Mitchell's non-tag
-" but he doesn't hurt you!"
Exactly the same with Seb. Doesn't look to help the team with his disposals.

In the first half of the year, I think seb used the ball much better, but I agree about him wasting it all through the second half of the season

[Teflon]

N Brown (good this year but moving forward)

Pfffttt He's hardly what you'd call a list clogger!

He has at least another year left in his career. He's been an absolute bargain and brought us tremendous stability down back.

He's not this year but he ain't the answer in future years hence fringe? Agree others ahead right now
Agree Minchington also gets a mention
This is about building a list that can seriously challenge - hard calls will need to be made..

He played all 22 games this year. That doesn't make him a fringe player at all. His experience is invaluable when it comes to building a list. In my mind, he'll be playing on next year. Not sure why you'd be suggesting he'd be one of the first to be getting delisted.

Not sure I suggested that or why you can't/refuse to read but it happens..

[St Chris]

Lonie turned 21, 2 weeks ago. I'm happy to keep him around a bit longer. He lacks composure at the top level, that's all. You can teach that. What you cant teach is the attitude and the endeavor, and he has that bit in spades.

Minchington is now in his 6th year in the system, and has had enough opportunity to prove his worth, and hasn't done it. Good VFL player, but the guys around him in age terms are Webster, Ross, Longer, Newnes (just older) and Membrey, Dunstan, Sinclair (just younger), all have established themselves as capable AFL level footballers. Contract or not, Minch's spot on the list has question marks

4 rucks + Marshall is too many. Whether that means we trade Hickey, or delist Holmes and/or Pierce, I don't know, but we need to cut the numbers. We can't expect Sandy to play 3 ruckmen and Marshall in the same side next year. I think Hickey goes and gets us a late 2nd round pick, and Pierce is delisted. Then our ruck stocks are Longer, Holmes as 2nd in line, Marshall as a key postion forward who can ruck a bit, and maybe we draft one more in the Marshall mould for depth.

Wright is a trier, but for us to move forward we need better players than Wright to play in the seniors, Another one who has had plenty of time in the system without securing a spot.

Brown is an interesting one. He definitely stays for another year, just because of Goddard's lack of availability. If Hugh gets on the park in 2018 and looks like he might come good as a key defender, then I think Brown's position becomes less obvious this time next year. Brown had a really good year, but had a poor last month.

[bigred]

Lonie.
Pierce
Holmes
Wright
Armitage- any player that has close to a full season out through injury.
Minch.
Weller.
Internationals?

We have a few.

I cant wait for our delistings. Seriously I hope they make an announcement this week.

[Sainternist]

In all honesty, I don't think Weller is a list-clogger. He's come off an ordinary season, plenty of talented players have those. I think he can find his former self again. A big pre-season could do him the word of good.

[Cordz2]

We have too many players who having shocking skills and not enough leaders. Are we happy to keep good, average players?

+1

[Cordz2]

Players I'd trade if a good deal came up

Hickey
Bruce
Weller
MacKenzie
Newnes


Delist
Lonie
Minchington

[Con Gorozidis]

In all honesty, I don't think Weller is a list-clogger. He's come off an ordinary season, plenty of talented players have those. I think he can find his former self again. A big pre-season could do him the word of good.

He is 26!
It isn't just one ordinary season.
He has had 6 ordinary seasons and one good season.
Last year was the anomaly for Mav.
He can't play back. Can't play mid.
53 goals from 108 games proves he is not a fwd either.

People need to get real. The club is happy to promote and market VFL players like Mav.
Mav is a blue collar player and needs to play like a rabid dog at AFL level.
Instead the club has allowed him to coast and play like he is Peter Daicos. He isn't.

[Stephen Theodore]

N Brown (good this year but moving forward)

Pfffttt He's hardly what you'd call a list clogger!

He has at least another year left in his career. He's been an absolute bargain and brought us tremendous stability down back.

+ 1

[dragit]

I think the bottom handful of players on the list are pretty easy to pick, but I am more worried about a lot of the players that are currently considered best 22.

We're eleventh for a reason and that was with two very good players in Riewoldt and Montagna playing most weeks who are probably both departing.

A lot of the players that get talked up as "potentially elite" or "had an excellent year" just aren't getting it done consistently or have serious flaws in their game.

I don't think there are that many players in our current best 22 who are completely safe from being replaced by a better player.

Safe (for now) IMO
Carlisle, Roberton, Geary, Ross, Steven, Dunstan, Acres, Billings, Sinclair, Membrey, Gresham, Steele

The bottom half of our best 22 are more of a concern than a handful of guys that will get delisted this year, as mentioned by others… a lot of good solid players, but as a whole aren't good enough to beat the better sides.

I hope we trade out a few of these B-C graders, as the urge to play them each week is clearly to great. Way too many battlers on the list and getting games in the firsts at the moment.

If we are not pushing hard for at least one very good free agent, we are tanking.