Why do we keep getting thrashed?

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Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby White Winmar » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:02pm

Just a topic to throw out there. I can't remember having so many heavy losses in a season where we've won more games than we've lost. If you'd missed our wins and only seen the losses, you'd swear we were back in the dim, dark eighties. Our narrowest loss came against WC in round two. That was by nineteen points and even in that game we "lost" the second half by a considerable margin (29 points).

I don't know that it can be fitness, as we seem to run out the games we win, really well. I doubt there's another team with a greater gap between its best and worst, not even Richmond, who we are beginning to resemble in many ways. Does anyone have any insight or theories? It's not as though we're a bad side. We're about average, mid table, I suppose, what I call a convenience store side, a "7-11" (reflects our rating in the comp.) Handy for some of the time, but you wouldn't want to rely on it for your weekly shop.

Our average losing margin has now blown out to 42 points per loss. That's bad. I have no idea why a fairly competent team can keep getting towelled up like that. We now face Sydney up there and Port in the weird crime capital. Our track record suggests there is more short term pain coming. Our percentage is now a liability, with most of the gains made in the past month given back last night. I know every team puts in at least a couple of shockers a year, but we're making an art form of it. We seem to have a case of "footballing bi-polar".

My only theory is that the competition is so tight now, that it is mental, as much as physical fatigue is the enemy. Clubs have become adept at managing the physical side of travel, recovery and injury management, but what of the mental side? The pressure now is relentless in terms of assessing performance, tactics, plans, set plays, reviews, meetings, opposition analysis, video replays etc.

It starts the moment the game is over and continues relentlessly until the following game. Even on your days off as a player, there's endless media pressure, social media and of course your own internal thoughts. No wonder players are suffering. The way some have bounced back after bouts of depression makes me think they are suffering more from mental exhaustion, rather than clinical depression, which is a physical illness that takes some time to make a recovery from. It is reflective of what is happening in society in general. So maybe we are not that great at mentally resetting, especially when things go wrong. The consequent loss of confidence can work like a contagion. Anyone else got some theories?
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Teflon » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:08pm

Great sides are mentally tough, can hang tough when the footy tide is against them
We can't.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby spert » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:15pm

The two states under Richo are winning or getting thrashed, and it is a sign of a faulty game plan(s)- if it works we win, if it fails we lose and there's no plan B, but in our case it's a train wreck. Seems the coaching panel have a lot of work to do, but I think they are incompetent.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Sainter_Dad » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:15pm

One game plan - hectic style - soft bruise free football - when the game is being played on our terms we are all conquering - when the opposition comes to play - we cannot handle the heat - we are bullies - but not the type that backs it up with actions - we are the type of bully that your father told you about - stand up to us and we go to water (read hesitant, chipping kicks, handballs to players under pressure etc)

We need to harden the f@rk up - and become unsociable in our attack on the football - look at the way McDonald Tipungwuti killed us with just his manic attack on the ball or the ball carrier.

We are better than last night - but we are sooks - and that starts at the top.

Years ago I suggested that the players have to look Lenny in the eye as they come off and explain themselves each and every game - now I have no idea who our 'give no quarter/ask no quarter' player is.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Leo.J » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:16pm

Imo it's a couple of things.

Starting with a lack of mental strength due to either personalities or inexperience.

Coupled with a lack of genuine leadership through our midfield.

And a very predictable reaction to intense pressure...which maybe partly gameplan/coaching related.

When under pressure we put it to the same parts of the ground consistently, in particular to the hot spot in the forward line.

Which is as good as a goal for a decent team.

Do that all day and your guaranteed to get flogged against a decent position.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:30pm

Mentally brittle. We lack true leaders. We lack the type of players that can turn games. We lack players that can dispose well under pressure and instinctively.

Personally I worry when you keep reading articles on the club website about what a great leader Geary is. If this was so, it would be self-evident and no need for PR.


You can get beaten by any side. But games like last night you can see that the 75% of the players were mentally just not there... Little intensity and n panic mode when they had the ball.

I personally think one good indicator of when a team has turned up to play is what happens as soon as they win the ball. When the team is "on" you will see lots of player movement. Players running in support for handballs, and to present in space to be kicked to.

Last night the Dons did this in spades whereas the Saints hardly did it at all. Result was "park football" for the Saints where we just played kick to kick by bombing to pack situations. That is when we did not first handball backwards to players who had no where to run to.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby howlinwolf » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:42pm

Sainter_Dad wrote:One game plan - hectic style - soft bruise free football - when the game is being played on our terms we are all conquering - when the opposition comes to play - we cannot handle the heat - we are bullies - but not the type that backs it up with actions - we are the type of bully that your father told you about - stand up to us and we go to water (read hesitant, chipping kicks, handballs to players under pressure etc)

We need to harden the f@rk up - and become unsociable in our attack on the football - look at the way McDonald Tipungwuti killed us with just his manic attack on the ball or the ball carrier.

We are better than last night - but we are sooks - and that starts at the top.

Years ago I suggested that the players have to look Lenny in the eye as they come off and explain themselves each and every game - now I have no idea who our 'give no quarter/ask no quarter' player is.


This is it in a nutshell. Couldn't have worded it better S'Dad.
Flat track bullies... no plan B.
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Of course player depth/skill and coaching depth/skill both come into play there.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Beno88 » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:49pm

It's all above the shoulders. We have the ability, we don't have the application or the smarts.

The perfect example last night was not once, not twice, but three times we conceded goals within the last 20 seconds of a quarter. Every time we had either had the ball or there was a stoppage. We did not have the application or smarts to shut down the opposition for just 20 seconds. How can we expect it for 22 weeks when they can't do it for 22 seconds?
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby The Fireman » Sat 15 Jul 2017 7:07pm

when we are pressured we cop it sweet, we don't return the favor and shut the game down. We allow being pressured and turn the ball over. We don't adapt.... coaching problem maybe ?
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Saints43 » Sat 15 Jul 2017 7:41pm

We commit too many players to each contest.

That was one of the things the Hawks always did. Made sure they had players outside of contests to receive and/or defend depending on who won it.. But also had the luxury of being able to believe that the players in the contest would win it.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Moods » Sat 15 Jul 2017 11:50pm

Sainter_Dad wrote:One game plan - hectic style - soft bruise free football - when the game is being played on our terms we are all conquering - when the opposition comes to play - we cannot handle the heat - we are bullies - but not the type that backs it up with actions - we are the type of bully that your father told you about - stand up to us and we go to water (read hesitant, chipping kicks, handballs to players under pressure etc)

We need to harden the f@rk up - and become unsociable in our attack on the football - look at the way McDonald Tipungwuti killed us with just his manic attack on the ball or the ball carrier.

We are better than last night - but we are sooks - and that starts at the top.

Years ago I suggested that the players have to look Lenny in the eye as they come off and explain themselves each and every game - now I have no idea who our 'give no quarter/ask no quarter' player is.



I agree with this. Our game style is not compatiable with the players we have. This play on at all costs is exciting when it comes off. Except when genuine pressure is applied we can't execute it. And we're too slow on transition to defence so we're always chasing tail when we do turn it over. Look at the Swans and their lock down style. This is also game plan. I was complimentary of our structures, but I'm not so sure. In fact these thrashings are systematic that something is definitely wrong. In fact if they continue for the first time in a while I'd be happy for the club to make a call on AR. It's not working.

People say it starts at the top with leaders, but I don't think Geary is a sook and Roo was skipper in our best recent years and he's still out on the ground. I believe that Carlisle is a sook. Ask any bomber supporter. He takes a lot of great marks and has more talent in his little finger than most of the list. But he picks and chooses when to go. He played well last night but he can give so much more. I don't warm to Lonie and believe he represents everything about our team at the moment. Pretty boy who looks great when things are going well. Not capable of turning anything around though. Mav has been a massive disappointment this year (leadership group)

I've been really worried about the team since beore the bye. Save for last week I'm not what's up - but I do know that playing the swans in Sydney is the perfect match up for us this week. If we're not prepared to get down and dirty with them we will get obliterated and I'm pretty sure they won't want that. We just need to see some fight when the chips are down. I can cope with losing. Fight the f***** game out though.........
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby mr six o'clock » Sun 16 Jul 2017 12:05am

Beno88 wrote:It's all above the shoulders. We have the ability, we don't have the application or the smarts.

The perfect example last night was not once, not twice, but three times we conceded goals within the last 20 seconds of a quarter. Every time we had either had the ball or there was a stoppage. We did not have the application or smarts to shut down the opposition for just 20 seconds. How can we expect it for 22 weeks when they can't do it for 22 seconds?


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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Jacks Back » Sun 16 Jul 2017 12:22am

Moods wrote:
Sainter_Dad wrote:One game plan - hectic style - soft bruise free football - when the game is being played on our terms we are all conquering - when the opposition comes to play - we cannot handle the heat - we are bullies - but not the type that backs it up with actions - we are the type of bully that your father told you about - stand up to us and we go to water (read hesitant, chipping kicks, handballs to players under pressure etc)

We need to harden the f@rk up - and become unsociable in our attack on the football - look at the way McDonald Tipungwuti killed us with just his manic attack on the ball or the ball carrier.

We are better than last night - but we are sooks - and that starts at the top.

Years ago I suggested that the players have to look Lenny in the eye as they come off and explain themselves each and every game - now I have no idea who our 'give no quarter/ask no quarter' player is.



I agree with this. Our game style is not compatiable with the players we have. This play on at all costs is exciting when it comes off. Except when genuine pressure is applied we can't execute it. And we're too slow on transition to defence so we're always chasing tail when we do turn it over. Look at the Swans and their lock down style. This is also game plan. I was complimentary of our structures, but I'm not so sure. In fact these thrashings are systematic that something is definitely wrong. In fact if they continue for the first time in a while I'd be happy for the club to make a call on AR. It's not working.

People say it starts at the top with leaders, but I don't think Geary is a sook and Roo was skipper in our best recent years and he's still out on the ground. I believe that Carlisle is a sook. Ask any bomber supporter. He takes a lot of great marks and has more talent in his little finger than most of the list. But he picks and chooses when to go. He played well last night but he can give so much more. I don't warm to Lonie and believe he represents everything about our team at the moment. Pretty boy who looks great when things are going well. Not capable of turning anything around though. Mav has been a massive disappointment this year (leadership group)

I've been really worried about the team since beore the bye. Save for last week I'm not what's up - but I do know that playing the swans in Sydney is the perfect match up for us this week. If we're not prepared to get down and dirty with them we will get obliterated and I'm pretty sure they won't want that. We just need to see some fight when the chips are down. I can cope with losing. Fight the f***** game out though.........

+1 for both Sainter_Dad and Moods. Also Carlisle isn't the bees knees just yet as I also think he picks and chooses too much. He was good against the druggies but I don't think he plays anywhere near 100% 100% of the time
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby leighsaintsince66 » Sun 16 Jul 2017 1:21am

Good and interesting post overall! I agree with many of the points made. As an older supporter I also believe that there are deeper structural issues, especially related to player development.
For instance, in my view our focus on player development (ie. at the VFL Sandringham level) can breed young selfish players who are not always hungry to actually win a match of football at all costs. (I know this issue isn't exclusive to St Kilda and I'm not suggesting that we ever try to lose).

In my opinion this issue was highlighted when some valuable St Kilda listed players were not even played in a recent VFL final series.
I also wonder why Sandy has been defeated so regularly this year. Perhaps not good enough? Being defeated ( ie not winning!) is not good for player development overall, even if the individual player is being trialled / excels in various positions or is working on aspects of his game.

Surely winning matches of football at virtually any cost should be the number one priority of a team, especially related to breeding a successful team.


Perhaps our player development system also relates to us getting thrashed at times?


Winning matches of footy must be the focus of our culture, including at the VFL level.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby #gosaintas » Sun 16 Jul 2017 9:22am

Poor leadership. That's it. Nobody steps up to stop the rot.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby ROLS-LEE » Sun 16 Jul 2017 11:39am

I believe he heavily invested in last week and it finally caught up with us. Consecutive 6 day breaks with a trip from Perth and the emotion of Maddies game we were mentally and physically gone before the ball was even bounced.
Then we came up against a good team that is fighting for some September action and we were found out badly.
Further more our selection of players is somewhat questionable plus longer webster and membrey where big noticeable outs.

It was our perfect storm for disaster but we were blind to see it due to the thrashing of the tigers the following week.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby saintsRrising » Sun 16 Jul 2017 11:59am

Cannot say it is due to being a young team either....

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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Junior » Sun 16 Jul 2017 12:08pm

The cornerstone of our game is our defensive pressure, which is great when teams handball against us.

When a team wins the contest and then kicks the ball around our pressure is removed from the game , I personally think we should then go one on one as plan B as guarding space does not work.

I think Geary has been good but when we are down no one looks capable of turning the tide for us, we need some game breakers and our leaders need to step up which is not happening.

The other obvious thing for me is the constant dumb bombing it long to a contest inside 50, we need to lower our eyes and not panic when under pressure.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Impatient Sainter » Sun 16 Jul 2017 1:16pm

spert wrote:The two states under Richo are winning or getting thrashed, and it is a sign of a faulty game plan(s)- if it works we win, if it fails we lose and there's no plan B, but in our case it's a train wreck. Seems the coaching panel have a lot of work to do, but I think they are incompetent.


Think we are not as talented as other teams and when we dont turn up with 100% capacity we get the result our talent dictates. The other issue is kicking teams seem to cut through the pressure game style.

Our and Richo task is to get the team to turn up every week which obviously they dont look like doing.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby remboy » Sun 16 Jul 2017 1:50pm

Impatient Sainter wrote:
spert wrote:The two states under Richo are winning or getting thrashed, and it is a sign of a faulty game plan(s)- if it works we win, if it fails we lose and there's no plan B, but in our case it's a train wreck. Seems the coaching panel have a lot of work to do, but I think they are incompetent.


Think we are not as talented as other teams and when we dont turn up with 100% capacity we get the result our talent dictates. The other issue is kicking teams seem to cut through the pressure game style.

Our and Richo task is to get the team to turn up every week which obviously they dont look like doing.


I tend to agree. Our A grade talent doesn't run deep enough so as soon as a few key players are down we can't cover it. We only need to drop a little bit off our best and we look a mile off it.
When you look at Richmond last week though we probably aren't the only ones in that position.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby Scollop » Sun 16 Jul 2017 2:08pm

leighsaintsince66 wrote:Good and interesting post overall! I agree with many of the points made. As an older supporter I also believe that there are deeper structural issues, especially related to player development.
For instance, in my view our focus on player development (ie. at the VFL Sandringham level) can breed young selfish players who are not always hungry to actually win a match of football at all costs. (I know this issue isn't exclusive to St Kilda and I'm not suggesting that we ever try to lose).

In my opinion this issue was highlighted when some valuable St Kilda listed players were not even played in a recent VFL final series.
I also wonder why Sandy has been defeated so regularly this year. Perhaps not good enough? Being defeated ( ie not winning!) is not good for player development overall, even if the individual player is being trialled / excels in various positions or is working on aspects of his game.
e
Surely winning matches of football at virtually any cost should be the number one priority of a team, especially related to breeding a successful team.


Perhaps our player development system also relates to us getting thrashed at times?


Winning matches of footy must be the focus of our culture, including at the VFL level.


The structural issues you speak about with player development being a key component are directly related to Nick Riewoldt playing on in 2017. Yes, he's a champ. Yes he deserved to play on when he had such a good year in 2016, but the club failed to think about the impact keeping him in the team would have had and is currently having to our structure and to the development of our younger players - both in the forward line and in the midfield.

Last year Richo clearly told Rooy that he'd be playing up the ground for the benefit of Paddy and his game time and our teams future. After Nick got injured in the early rounds this year and he came back he was allowed to play forward because it was clear that he was impeded. He didn't play well on Friday and he's been struggling in half of his matches. I love Nick, but long after he's no longer a player, I'll still be barracking and paying my family's membership, and I want to see the next crop get opportunities.

Perhaps the aura of Nick is also creating more pressure on players to perform and some players were getting injured in the magoos because they had to do more to try harder to regain their spot. I'm not saying that we're getting pumped because Nick is in the team. All I'm saying is that ther is a cost to keeping older players on your list longer than you should.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby saintsRrising » Sun 16 Jul 2017 3:37pm

saintsRrising wrote:Cannot say it is due to being a young team either....

Average Attributes for the game
St Kilda Attribute Essendon
187.4cm Height 186.1cm
86.1kg Weight 85.9kg
25yr 3mth Age 25yr 6mth
101.6 Games 100.8



And given that we play Swans next.


Average Attributes
GWS Attribute Sydney
188.5cm Height 187.0cm
88.1kg Weight 87.1kg
25yr 6mth Age 25yr 7mth
106.6 Games 110.0


So interestingly stats wise we are on average very similar to these other clubs.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby SydneySainter » Sun 16 Jul 2017 4:41pm

saintsRrising wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:Cannot say it is due to being a young team either....

Average Attributes for the game
St Kilda Attribute Essendon
187.4cm Height 186.1cm
86.1kg Weight 85.9kg
25yr 3mth Age 25yr 6mth
101.6 Games 100.8



And given that we play Swans next.


Average Attributes
GWS Attribute Sydney
188.5cm Height 187.0cm
88.1kg Weight 87.1kg
25yr 6mth Age 25yr 7mth
106.6 Games 110.0


So interestingly stats wise we are on average very similar to these other clubs.


I really think that we use the "young team" excuse too often. Every team has young players, some more than others, but I think we're falling into the trap of forgetting how long some of our so called "young" players have been in the system.

I think depth is our primary concern, something which we don't have nearly as much of as we first thought.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby saintsRrising » Sun 16 Jul 2017 5:48pm

SydneySainter wrote:
I think depth is our primary concern, something which we don't have nearly as much of as we first thought.


I actually think our depth is ok, but that we just do not have enough elite and very good players.

We can now keep adding depth players all we like, it will make little difference. What we now need is QUALITY, we need really good players to push out average players.

As an example how lucky where the Cats that Dangerfield chose them. Selwood is also elite but if the Cats did not have Danger in their 22
- Hawks yesterday where Paddy on one leg kicked 5 goals
- Draw with GWs when Paddy got 45 disposals
- 2 point win over PA when Paddy got 3 goals
- 2 point win over Freo when Paddy dominated
- 1 point win over Kangas when Paddy got 37 disposals

No Paddy, and the Cats could instead of say being 11 wins 1 draw in second be 7 wins and as low as 10th or less!

Now extreme example as there are only 3 top 3 players in the competition, and we will not land one next year, but it does demonstrate the difference that top end quality can make. Cats have 2 superstar mids. We have none.

Overall the club has done a reasonable job of rebuilding, but we lack top end talent.
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Re: Why do we keep getting thrashed?

Postby thejiggingsaint » Sun 16 Jul 2017 6:05pm

Maybe, it's me, but I'm of the opinion that this season, we've not had any floggings on the scale of last season (100 points at West Coast, 88 at Port Adelaide) In the context of a VERY open comp in 2017, our losses are about par for the course.
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