So let's talk about our ruck situation...

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So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby skeptic » Sat 15 Jul 2017 1:52pm

From where I sit, no matter which way you look at it, it's inadequate.

As it stands, our primary ruck at the moment is Billy Longer.
He is a beast in the centre, and gets his hands on a fair few hit outs to advantage but the reality is he completely lacks in around the ground presence. He's been our primary ruck all season and most on here have said that outside of the ball ups, we're effectively playing a man short.
It's a fair criticism when you consider that most on here, myself included, consider his game vs Richmond the best game he's played for the club...
His numbers from that game are 2 kicks (one from a free), 9 handballs, 4 marks, 5 tackles - but more than that, he had presence and impact...
But I have to reiterate, that was his BEST game

Then you have Tom Hickey
He is not good in the centre and as many have pointed out, the change to the 3rd man up rule seems to have effectively killed off his strengths...
However, despite arguably his worst game for the year, he is head and shoulders above the rest as an around the ground player. Last night, in his worst game, he still got 12 possessions - 6 kicks, 6 handballs and 2 tackles. On possessions alone, his worst game has yielded him more disposals than Longer's best. That's an issue.
The problem with Tom is that not only does he lack the ability to give us an edge in the centre... psychologically he seems weak. We all know what he's capable of around the grounds... the guy can be an absolute beast, but he is prone to getting rattled and meekly surrendering.

Next in line actually seems to be Sam Gilbert - not a great ruck by any means but he seems serviceable enough at taps to then turn around and exploit his opponent around the ground.
We know it's not a perfect situation but credit where credit is due, he's really played above and beyond in this regard.

Next in line is perhaps Jason Holmes... pbly the 2nd best tap ruckman at the club but has even less impact then Longer. He was always at best a depth player but he really hasn't come on at all this season and seems to have gone backwards even at Sandy.

Lewis Pierce is the real disappointment here. Widely touted as the best natural player of all of rucks... the one that may actually be capable of being a ruck and a KPP- simply put, whether through injury, bad luck, whatever... he hasn't fired a shot. He played that one game in 2016 and I've not heard his name since.

Then you have Rowan Marshall - a genuinely exciting prospect... he has the height for a ruck but seems more suited to the role of KPF is the sense I get. I can't recall from the match reports I've read if he's actually ever played in the ruck. Promoted off the rookie list, he might not get a go this year but absolutely deserves to stay on.

Reading through this list, one thing is abundantly clear...
There is not one player that appears to have all the necessary skills to be a primary ruck at the current time.

I think that most would agree that Longer is pbly the best prospect if he gets a bit better with age and Rowan could be the salvation if he comes on.
It seems as though the only option for Hickey is to reinvent himself as a key position player somewhere and be the relief cover.

No matter though... whichever way this is sliced up, 5 1/2 players on the list vying for one position with not one having all the necessary tools is simply unacceptable. Come end of the season, I think there needs to be some major movement in this area.


Just to add on...
Here's what the SS Council said at the start of the season

What’s the solution to our ruck situation?
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Hickey with Pierce after the latter forces his way into the team as a KPP
18% of respondents said:
- Hickey and Carlisle
9% of respondents said:
- Hickey rotating with Longer/Holmes off the bench

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Hickey as the primary with Bruce providing relief from up forward
- Trade in a forward/ruck
- Hickey with Carlisle helping. Bruce needs to stay forward
- Hickey as a primary and back ups available
- Hickey + a forward chop out
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Proph3t of egan » Sat 15 Jul 2017 2:09pm

I think that a ruckmans job isn't to accumulate possessions

We don't need Longer to get possessions because he.gives our mids 4 or 5 extra possessions.

That being said will not count out Hickey as I still think he has potential, just not as our number 1 ruckman. Maybe he could reinvent himself as a Cam Pederson forward ruck
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 15 Jul 2017 2:11pm

I have long been of the view that ruck is the last position that you sort when building a team. Most recent premiership teams have done this.

As a group young rucks are the most unpredictable to make it. Most do not, and while they are developing they are often pretty useless.

A ruckman that make it can virtually come from any draft position.

Trading drafting for Hickey and Longer was an error. Trading/drafting for any young ruck is strategically poor, and if done only use late picks or rookie picks.


Giving where we are at, and with the current ruck rules, stick with Longer. He may or may not come good. WHEN and only when the rest of our team is complete, if Longer has not come good then go out and get our Ottens, Jolly, Hale etc


Given where our list is at the main thing we need, and arguably even the only thing we need, are elite mids.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby borderbarry » Sat 15 Jul 2017 2:23pm

What is it about you people? Holmes last weekend had 62 hit outs. I can never remember a ruckman being that dominant in a game,even at VFL level. The opposition team, (Footscray) had a total of 12. Holmes has played five AFL matches, and has always tried hard and had a reasonable performance. After Longer he is our next best ruckman. If our selectors cant see that they need to find another job.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby skeptic » Sat 15 Jul 2017 5:16pm

borderbarry wrote:What is it about you people? Holmes last weekend had 62 hit outs. I can never remember a ruckman being that dominant in a game,even at VFL level. The opposition team, (Footscray) had a total of 12. Holmes has played five AFL matches, and has always tried hard and had a reasonable performance. After Longer he is our next best ruckman. If our selectors cant see that they need to find another job.


Evidently hey do not...

IIRC he's spent a bit of time in Sandy 2s this season
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby thejiggingsaint » Sat 15 Jul 2017 5:19pm

As dear old Barks maintained: "Rix Rox Rux" !!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Toy Saint » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:12pm

So, what's the verdict on the McEvoy trade?

Good trade or Bad trade?
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby bigred » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:20pm

Hickey is better than that.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby skeptic » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:27pm

Toy Saint wrote:So, what's the verdict on the McEvoy trade?

Good trade or Bad trade?


McEvoy isn't that good a ruckman... he sits closer to Hickey and his deficiencies.
Don't mistake the fact that a Hawthorn team that could arguably be described as the greatest of all time allowed him the cover of dropping back to take contested grabs and cover up his rucking flaws in the middle.

He's not that good... in fact I believe Hickey thrashed him last season too
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 15 Jul 2017 6:36pm

bigred wrote:Hickey is better than that.


I agree. But I think he know that Richo prefers Longer and due to this he has given up as we will not play two No 1 rucks in the one team. He probably also knows that going forward that if the club does decide to play a forward/ruck in addition to Longer that Marshal will have a better chance to nail that role as he looks to be a better mark, and is certainly a much better kick on goal.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby thejiggingsaint » Sat 15 Jul 2017 9:11pm

Rix!
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Crossy66 » Sat 15 Jul 2017 11:30pm

Our rucks are fine. Billy will be our number one for years and will be one of the best going around in time. Just clicked over 50 games and is the second youngest of the number one rucks in the league. Everyone knows ruckmen take time to develop and i think Billy is coming along nicely. We just need to get more games into the kids and pick up one or two elite mids and we'll be right in the mix. With two high draft picks, plenty of salary cap space, and a destination club, we should be in a strong position to pick them up this year.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby thejiggingsaint » Sun 16 Jul 2017 12:08am

Rix!
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby saintsRrising » Sun 16 Jul 2017 1:34am

Crossy66 wrote:. With two high draft picks,


High? Hawks will finish most likely finish about 12th. Saints 7-10th. That is picks 7 and 9-12th. Nice, but hardly in the territory to draft the best kids. Though using both may land Kelly. Meanwhile North look to finish second last and that would assist in giving them something to trade for Kelly.

Crossy66 wrote:plenty of salary cap space, and a destination club, we should be in a strong position to pick them up this year.


You are absolutely kidding yourself if you believe that St Kilda is a destination club.


I am hoping like hell that we can convince Kelly to join us. But if he does it will not be because he thinks that we are a destination club, and I doubt very much that he would join us for unders which is what a player will do to play at a club that he views as a destination club.

The way the Saints played against the Dons would not at all be helpful in having a bigfish to decide to join us.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Crossy66 » Sun 16 Jul 2017 8:57am

saintsRrising wrote:
Crossy66 wrote:. With two high draft picks,


High? Hawks will finish most likely finish about 12th. Saints 7-10th. That is picks 7 and 9-12th. Nice, but hardly in the territory to draft the best kids. Though using both may land Kelly. Meanwhile North look to finish second last and that would assist in giving them something to trade for Kelly.

Crossy66 wrote:plenty of salary cap space, and a destination club, we should be in a strong position to pick them up this year.


You are absolutely kidding yourself if you believe that St Kilda is a destination club.


I am hoping like hell that we can convince Kelly to join us. But if he does it will not be because he thinks that we are a destination club, and I doubt very much that he would join us for unders which is what a player will do to play at a club that he views as a destination club.

The way the Saints played against the Dons would not at all be helpful in having a bigfish to decide to join us.


Absolutely not kidding. Over the next few years, this group will be in top 4 contention, (and who knows from there), we are Melbourne based, and ahead of most other teams that have the salary cap space. In the case of Kelly, he has strong ties with a few of our players and in the case of Dusty, he has said StKilda is the only club other than Richmond he would play with. Also remember that this draft is touted to be as deep as 2001, meaning picks around the 7 - 12 will be of value.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Impatient Sainter » Sun 16 Jul 2017 2:59pm

Longer is improving and getting stronger each week, I have no doubt he will be a handy ruckman by the time comes that we threaten. We need to delist Pierce and Holmes this year and upgrade Marshall and draft another kid to develop.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby mr six o'clock » Sun 16 Jul 2017 3:26pm

What i don't understand with all our rucks is what they try to achieve with each contest.
Having watched both seniors and reserves they all seem to tap it one way or the other. They do this seemingly 99 times out of 100.
If the ball goes to one of our blokes mostly is cleared by hand , and then goes sideways to the wing , rarely is there a quick kick into the forward line.
Why do they never try to punch the ball into open space ?
Why do they never try to tap the ball 10 feet ?
What is the purpose of winning a tap out to your team only for them to be immediately tackled?
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby thejiggingsaint » Sun 16 Jul 2017 6:12pm

Impatient Sainter. Agree to disagree re: delisting Pierce & Holmes. In fact, I'd like to see Pierce given an extended opportunity in the first team.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Crossy66 » Sun 16 Jul 2017 7:02pm

thejiggingsaint wrote:Impatient Sainter. Agree to disagree re: delisting Pierce & Holmes. In fact, I'd like to see Pierce given an extended opportunity in the first team.

Agree. Not sure of the wisdom in drafting ruckmen, they spend 5+ years on your list before you work out how good they will be. The model is to trade for a mature aged ruckman when you are ready to go i.e. Hale, Jolly, Ottens, Gardiner etc. Too early to call on Pierce.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby stonecold » Sun 16 Jul 2017 7:10pm

Crossy66 wrote:Our rucks are fine. Billy will be our number one for years and will be one of the best going around in time. Just clicked over 50 games and is the second youngest of the number one rucks in the league. Everyone knows ruckmen take time to develop and i think Billy is coming along nicely. We just need to get more games into the kids and pick up one or two elite mids and we'll be right in the mix. With two high draft picks, plenty of salary cap space, and a destination club, we should be in a strong position to pick them up this year.


WowWee!!!!!!!

+1000, but be careful with the common sense approach on here with Billy, the no-says(those with no clue on a modern day Ruckmans role), won't have it!!!!!!#!

Love to name them, but been shackled!!!!!!!
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Sainternist » Sun 16 Jul 2017 7:10pm

I reckon a ready-made ruckman might be on our end of year shopping list.

Will there be any rucks available from other clubs?
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby stonecold » Sun 16 Jul 2017 7:12pm

Sainternist wrote:I reckon a ready-made ruckman might be on our end of year shopping list.

Will there be any rucks available from other clubs?


I reckon you have no clue on ruckmen, as previously stated, bit of advice stick to what you know, whatever that is!!!!!!!

Don't think you have ever played Ruck in your life, feel free to correct me!!!!!!
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Sainternist » Sun 16 Jul 2017 7:20pm

stonecold wrote:
Sainternist wrote:I reckon a ready-made ruckman might be on our end of year shopping list.

Will there be any rucks available from other clubs?


I reckon you have no clue on ruckmen, as previously stated, bit of advice stick to what you know, whatever that is!!!!!!!

Don't think you have ever played Ruck in your life, feel free to correct me!!!!!!


So you are an expert on the subject of ruckmen, are you?

Okay, Stonecold, enlighten us - tell us why there is no need to do anything about our current ruck situation.
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby Sainternist » Sun 16 Jul 2017 7:22pm

P.S. Stonecold, why didn't you also contradict OP? Or is it just part of your usual trolling?
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Re: So let's talk about our ruck situation...

Postby thejiggingsaint » Sun 16 Jul 2017 7:25pm

Look stone cold and Sainternist..... let me settle your argument: .... RIX ROX RUX! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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