Great Teams

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Great Teams

Postby tony74 » Sat 15 Jul 2017 1:18am

Continually get up for games like tonight. Stating the obvious we're not a great team yet. But rather than follow the majority on here it's not purely talent. So much of it is between the ears. Anyone ( and there might be someone on this forum) who was in the rooms or even at training this week would have sensed it. Not that they got in front of themselves, just there wasn't the desire from the previous few weeks. I hear you say--- that's the coaches jobs. It ain't that simple. It takes the core of a great team, and that's what we're working on.
Very poor effort and result tonight but I can ASSURE you we're finding out who has the goods for the following years. Unfortunately we were a spent team both physically and mentally before we ran out tonight. Sport psychologists get paid a lot, let's hope they earn their money next week. Keep the faith.
P.S. Battle will make it.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby chook23 » Sat 15 Jul 2017 1:24am

Well hickey and long dont have the goods...tony
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Re: Great Teams

Postby lewdogs » Sat 15 Jul 2017 1:39am

chook23 wrote:Well hickey and long dont have the goods...tony

Odd that you'd single out Long. Thought he was ok. He's one who I think may very well have the goods.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby Linton Lodger » Sat 15 Jul 2017 1:44am

Great teams don't get ahead of themselves everytime they have a good win. We seem to be afflicted with getting ahead of ourselves and have NO CLUE how to deliver consistently. It started last week and got glossed over by our great first half. We started to get some bad habits in the third last week and our final quarter last week was garbage and a team already ahead of themselves.

What disgraceful sh*t it was tonight.

"...just there wasn't the desire from the previous few weeks" That's a classic case of getting ahead of themselves. You bring the same desire every week, that's what Premiership teams do. If they don't get that, then maybe someone needs to inform them that their finals quest is a fanciful joke and that they may want to start playing for their place on the list.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby elizabethr » Sat 15 Jul 2017 1:48am

Onfield leadership is non-existent
nothing to say
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Re: Great Teams

Postby The OtherThommo » Sat 15 Jul 2017 1:56am

tony74 wrote:Continually get up for games like tonight. Stating the obvious we're not a great team yet. But rather than follow the majority on here it's not purely talent. So much of it is between the ears. Anyone ( and there might be someone on this forum) who was in the rooms or even at training this week would have sensed it. Not that they got in front of themselves, just there wasn't the desire from the previous few weeks. I hear you say--- that's the coaches jobs. It ain't that simple. It takes the core of a great team, and that's what we're working on.
Very poor effort and result tonight but I can ASSURE you we're finding out who has the goods for the following years. Unfortunately we were a spent team both physically and mentally before we ran out tonight. Sport psychologists get paid a lot, let's hope they earn their money next week. Keep the faith.
P.S. Battle will make it.


Taking the psychology viewpoint, there were way too many talking after last week about 'looking forward to playing finals' - alarm bells galore, and well before tonight.

To take the mug punter viewpoint, too many noises sounding like gargling their own bathwater, and nowhere near enough 'one week at a time'.

It was lamentable, from go to whoa and, while calm reflection about 'where we're at' might seem reasonable, it is utter rubbish.

Why in the hell did we 'not turn up to play'? The freakin' season remained on the line, yet we played like THAT?!?!

Inept, disorganised, unwilling to compete, waiting for someone else to get the job done.....

AFL footballers are paid an average of circa $350K p.a. Why is it the higher paid get to resort to 'psychology', while the lower paid get screwed for 'not taking personal responsibility'?

Tell it to the mugs on $40K who cough up every year, Tony, and put up with crap like we dished up tonight - they deserve better.

Those of us who stood on the terraces in the '80's, when the whole competition was a set up for 4 or 5 big clubs, would know the blokes on the ground tried their arses off, got the best out of themselves.

And, we knew that if we beat a top 4 side one week, when we came back the next, the effort would be the same.

Tonight? A disgrace. Yeah, the game's more complex now. So what? The bloke's in the '80's got paid a pittance. Nowadays? Awww, we had a bad night, let's hope the psychologists can work it out, because 'THEY GET PAID A LOT'?!?!

What a soft cop out, after an utterly disgraceful DAY'S WORK.

If those who fancy playing the game as a career want to be regarded as 'professional sportsmen', then damn well be 'professional'.

And, as far as the coaching staff goes they, too, are very, very well rewarded. The accountability?

I, and many members of the long time tribe, are close to breaking point. Tonight's performance has triggered a rash of reevaluation, and we've never had a rash before.

What happened tonight is just not tolerable.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sat 15 Jul 2017 5:22am

Forget about 'great'.
We aren't even good.
Talk about getting ahead of yourself.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby meher baba » Sat 15 Jul 2017 7:30am

Essendon threw everything at us from the opening bounce, we got on the back foot, and we panicked. Thanks to their shocking kicking for goal (even their first goal was a miss, but the umpy gave it to them anyway), we were still in the game theoretically, but we were mentally shot within a few minutes.

We fell back into our two worst habits: fussing about with the ball inside our defensive 50 and missing gettable shots on goal. We also couldn't seem to lay a tackle last night: Bombers players waltzed around us with ease.

As I see it, we are very consistent. When we feel under pressure we play like we did last night. When we don't feel so much pressure, we move the ball forward well, tackle hard and start taking our chances.

As the OP said, a lot of it is mental. Another problem is that we don't have too much depth. Membrey and Webster - and, as it turned out, Longer - were big outs last night. Some might call for us to "play the kids" but, for mine, there were too many kids last night. As I posted before the game on another thread, most AFL coaches would have played Acres rather than Battle. Dunstan ahead of Long might have worked better too. Richo does love his midget army of forwards, but I felt we were undermanned in the middle last night.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby cwrcyn » Sat 15 Jul 2017 8:33am

We are certainly finding out who can take us forward. There are a few who won't who may have shown their hand to the coaches tonight (and in previous weeks). My guess is that the coach may put a line through Tom Hickey (and I've been a fan of his in the past). McKenzie, I'm afraid, has no awareness of what's going on around him and has tunnel vision when he gets the ball. He was shocking last week and much the same last night. I don't see 'AFL quality' stamped on his forehead. Of those who didn't play last night, Dunstan and Wright will not help us to get where we want to be, and poor Hugh Goddard might just fade into the sunset given his injury woes and his lack of leg speed and vertical leap. Pierce and Holmes look like list cloggers (would Holmes have been better for us last night??). Minchington seems to eternally sit on the fringes and Koby Stevens, as tough as he is, looks like a stop-gap until we find some more midfielders with class and speed. We are a B grade team lacking A grade individual talent. Until we address it, we'll be hovering between 9th and 13th for some time.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby chook23 » Sat 15 Jul 2017 8:47am

Some good responses in this thread..
Tony....same applies to the coaching group....finding out who has the "goods"......
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Re: Great Teams

Postby carn_sainter » Sat 15 Jul 2017 9:40am

meher baba wrote:Essendon threw everything at us from the opening bounce, we got on the back foot, and we panicked. Thanks to their shocking kicking for goal (even their first goal was a miss, but the umpy gave it to them anyway), we were still in the game theoretically, but we were mentally shot within a few minutes.

We fell back into our two worst habits: fussing about with the ball inside our defensive 50 and missing gettable shots on goal. We also couldn't seem to lay a tackle last night: Bombers players waltzed around us with ease.

As I see it, we are very consistent. When we feel under pressure we play like we did last night. When we don't feel so much pressure, we move the ball forward well, tackle hard and start taking our chances.

As the OP said, a lot of it is mental. Another problem is that we don't have too much depth. Membrey and Webster - and, as it turned out, Longer - were big outs last night. Some might call for us to "play the kids" but, for mine, there were too many kids last night. As I posted before the game on another thread, most AFL coaches would have played Acres rather than Battle. Dunstan ahead of Long might have worked better too. Richo does love his midget army of forwards, but I felt we were undermanned in the middle last night.


Good post. We were never in the game last night. Completely smashed for 120 minutes. That we were only three goals down at quarter time was the product of immense luck.

Their pressure was good and we didn't respond. But it wasn't just will or pressure. We were soundly beaten in every way.

- We had no structure in front of the ball. Thus, nothing to kick to. Thus, bumbling, stuttered ball movement prone to turn overs and easy to defend.
- We had no structure around the contest. They beat us at the coal face but the first touch away from a contest was not defended and the spread on the outside without any resistance from us.
- Our defenders were the most disorganised for perhaps the whole season. There were many passages of play with the ball around wing/Saints HF in contest where the bombers had one or sometimes two forwards unchecked out the back, one kick away. I couldn't believe the number of times that Geary or Roberton or Carlisle were one against two and caught 20m in between both, defending nothing, no help coming.

In other words, we were thoroughly outcoached. Also didn't have the talent to change things up meaningfully. And weren't contesting enough to put up any resistance. Players who I thought got a pass mark were Carlisle, Roberton (minus his kicking), Newnes, Gresham, Sinclair. So 17 guys didn't do enough.

I don't agree that it's a matter of consistently crumbling under pressure. We certainly do struggle at turning the tide, arresting momentum. On-field leadership needs to improve. I think the main problem we have is not playing a forward-line, so any time we do get a turnover, either by a mark or a ground ball, we can't turn around fast and score because we have nothing to kick to. Adelaide, for example, always keep options forward which is why they get goals out the back on super fast rebound.

As you say, depth isn't there yet, but I think it's improving or at least not a situation that is terminally ill.

It's not the worst situation in the world. Being smashed by a team below you should get you motivated to play the teams above you. We were the hunted last night...first time in ages. We're back in the role of the hunter and I expect a decent showing next week. Now, if we get smashed again next week, it might be season over...
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Re: Great Teams

Postby Vazelos » Sat 15 Jul 2017 10:11am

The most disappointing deflating performance this year.
A Friday night, packed stadium and we dished up rubbish.
It seems when we play a team with equal or higher energy levels than ourselves and press us equally as much as we press them we fall to pieces. We can't handle pressure, our game falls apart.
Our game is based too much on energy and pressure and when that's matched by a team we don't have enough class to cope.
Our forward line broke down last night...
Riewoldt looked like on his last legs.
Battle was a massive risk for a massive game and whilst he looked an exciting prospect he was always going to struggle to make an impact. Acres would have been a better pick for mine. 190 cm target. Ben Long is still a work in progress as well. We missed Membrey big time. I hope Mc Cartin can get up and running for next year we need him.
Defence was heroic as usual.
Hats off to Roberton and Carlisle was magnificent.
Our mid field looked a little one paced with Steele and Stevens playing average games.
Hickey was terrible last night, he put a huge dent in his prospects for his career.
Lonie again can't be trusted, for some nice work he does he let's his team down when he chooses when to commit to tackles.
He was insipid in several key contests and should be dropped for mine.
I can't see how he will get another contract.
Webster will come back in and now Gilbert has to be replaced.
Longer we hope will be ready to replace Hickey.
There will be changes but our heads look to summer to one of the most defining draft windows in our recent history.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby Jacks Back » Sat 15 Jul 2017 10:28am

We lifted above our usual form last week because of Maddies Match. Back to reality this week.
As president Peter Summers said:
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Re: Great Teams

Postby CURLY » Sat 15 Jul 2017 10:44am

Jacks Back wrote:We lifted above our usual form last week because of Maddies Match. Back to reality this week.



Dont buy that at all. We played as bad as Ive seen last night it was horrendous and it started in the ruck and it was obvious to all that we were on the back foot as a result. Longer, Membury, McCartin, Webster Acres and Weller all out of our best 22 certainly diidnt help.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby fugazi » Sat 15 Jul 2017 10:46am

Get off Stevens back. Has been terrific all year.
Essendon were very good last night and we were ordinary.
We have just won 4 in a row, and had 2 six day breaks.
I don't think we got ahead of ourselves, we are a mid table side on the improve. Got beaten by a side having a ripper night out.
That's footy in 2017.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby shrodes » Sat 15 Jul 2017 10:46am

lewdogs wrote:
chook23 wrote:Well hickey and long dont have the goods...tony

Odd that you'd single out Long. Thought he was ok. He's one who I think may very well have the goods.


Pointless talking to half the people on here who will write players off before they've had a chance. DMac sub 20 games is copping it and now Long who played his third game? Absolutely ridiculous :roll:
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Re: Great Teams

Postby fugazi » Sat 15 Jul 2017 10:48am

shrodes wrote:
lewdogs wrote:
chook23 wrote:Well hickey and long dont have the goods...tony

Odd that you'd single out Long. Thought he was ok. He's one who I think may very well have the goods.


Pointless talking to half the people on here who will write players off before they've had a chance. DMac sub 20 games is copping it and now Long who played his third game? Absolutely ridiculous :roll:


+1
Long will be good.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 15 Jul 2017 10:49am

tony74 wrote:Continually get up for games like tonight. Stating the obvious we're not a great team yet. But rather than follow the majority on here it's not purely talent. So much of it is between the ears. Anyone ( and there might be someone on this forum) who was in the rooms or even at training this week would have sensed it. Not that they got in front of themselves, just there wasn't the desire from the previous few weeks. I hear you say--- that's the coaches jobs. It ain't that simple. It takes the core of a great team, and that's what we're working on.
Very poor effort and result tonight but I can ASSURE you we're finding out who has the goods for the following years. Unfortunately we were a spent team both physically and mentally before we ran out tonight. Sport psychologists get paid a lot, let's hope they earn their money next week. Keep the faith.
P.S. Battle will make it.



Wow this is just such a troubling post in so many ways.

1/ That despite that the coaches knew the players were flat all week, but yet could do nought about it.

2/ That the players could become so flat, so quickly, after such a good win.

3/ That reading between the lines that Tony is flagging that we have a number of mentally brittle of players who are not up to it.


This to me means that we have both coaches and players who are not up to it.

One game can be ignored. But unfortunately when you look at our entire season there is a pattern. Unfortunately the very sad reality is that the Saints at present ARE a team of downhill skiers. When the pressure is off we can look marvellous. When the opposition is up and about and work hard our play falls away. Our skills become rubbish, our shots on goal pathetic, we stop running in waves, we stop running to present, the tackle pressure disappears and we start just bombing the ball whether forward or around the ground. Handballing to the nearest St Kilda jumper increases, and unfortunately to team mate with an opponent on him or where that team mate has no room to run.

Yes we defeated GWS, but fortunately GWS are a team chock full of talent that likes to play open, free and fast and that gave us a chance.

Next week we play the Swans who like to lock games down. So next week is a HUGE test for players and coaches as it is exactly the type of game that they have been failing in this year. And it is not just whether we win, or lose, but it is all about can we been competitive. Can we not play like downhill skiers? Can we play in a way to establish a foundation to improve? So this to me is what it is all about at present is how we are playing. Also I am not trouble by giving youth a chance, as we sure as hell do not yet have a 22 that will win a flag.

Playing well just when the opposition has the foot off the pedal is not the hallmark of a good team. Hell it is not even the hallmark of an average team. Great team? That is just fantasy stuff at present.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby meher baba » Sat 15 Jul 2017 10:51am

I don't know how some of the young players will go in the long-term, but we had too many of them on the park last night for such a crucial game. Dunstan, Acres and Weller are far from perfect, but they are more battle-hardened.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby Crossy66 » Sat 15 Jul 2017 11:16am

Whilst it was hard to sit through last night, Its not all doom and gloom. How many teams this year have won 5 in a row ? It tough for the more mature teams so an even bigger challenge for young players and young teams to maintain consistency of effort and we just arent there yet. The big difference last night for me was that the ball came into Essendons forward line fast without pressure and the ball came into our forward line slow and haphazard. Made our defenders and forwards look average. We probably took in a couple too many inexperienced players in hindsight.
Add in a fit Longer, Acres, Weller, Dunstan, Webster, Membrey etc and things will be back on track quickly.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby magnifisaint » Sat 15 Jul 2017 11:27am

tony74 wrote:Continually get up for games like tonight. Stating the obvious we're not a great team yet. But rather than follow the majority on here it's not purely talent. So much of it is between the ears. Anyone ( and there might be someone on this forum) who was in the rooms or even at training this week would have sensed it. Not that they got in front of themselves, just there wasn't the desire from the previous few weeks. I hear you say--- that's the coaches jobs. It ain't that simple. It takes the core of a great team, and that's what we're working on.
Very poor effort and result tonight but I can ASSURE you we're finding out who has the goods for the following years. Unfortunately we were a spent team both physically and mentally before we ran out tonight. Sport psychologists get paid a lot, let's hope they earn their money next week. Keep the faith.
P.S. Battle will make it.

WTF. Master of excuses?
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Re: Great Teams

Postby desertsaint » Sat 15 Jul 2017 11:29am

fugazi wrote:Get off Stevens back. Has been terrific all year.
Essendon were very good last night and we were ordinary.
We have just won 4 in a row, and had 2 six day breaks.
I don't think we got ahead of ourselves, we are a mid table side on the improve. Got beaten by a side having a ripper night out.
That's footy in 2017.

what he said, but slightly more disappointed.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby remboy » Sat 15 Jul 2017 11:31am

Not sure if this is the right thread for this but I thought last night was typical of how this season is playing out, not just for us but across the entire competition. We flogged the Tigers last week and copped a flogging this week. Adelaide lost to Melbourne at home earlier in the year. Every week teams are losing games they shouldn't.
More than ever this is a season of where if a team is 5% off their game they get their pants pulled down. It's probably a sign of a lack of depth but it seems that if a couple of players are missing (this week Membrey and Webster) or have a sub par game (too many to mention) we fall away very quickly.
Last night was one week. As we have seen there is a lot that can change in the space of a week.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 15 Jul 2017 11:35am

remboy wrote:Not sure if this is the right thread for this but I thought last night was typical of how this season is playing out, not just for us but across the entire competition. We flogged the Tigers last week and copped a flogging this week. Adelaide lost to Melbourne at home earlier in the year. Every week teams are losing games they shouldn't.
More than ever this is a season of where if a team is 5% off their game they get their pants pulled down. It's probably a sign of a lack of depth but it seems that if a couple of players are missing (this week Membrey and Webster) or have a sub par game (too many to mention) we fall away very quickly.
Last night was one week. As we have seen there is a lot that can change in the space of a week.


While in part true, last night we were not 5% off. Three quarters of our team were mentally not present. One knew this after 10 minutes and it barely changed for the whole game.

Apart from Carlisle, Savage, Stevens and Sincs it was pretty pitiful.
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Re: Great Teams

Postby remboy » Sat 15 Jul 2017 11:43am

saintsRrising wrote:
remboy wrote:Not sure if this is the right thread for this but I thought last night was typical of how this season is playing out, not just for us but across the entire competition. We flogged the Tigers last week and copped a flogging this week. Adelaide lost to Melbourne at home earlier in the year. Every week teams are losing games they shouldn't.
More than ever this is a season of where if a team is 5% off their game they get their pants pulled down. It's probably a sign of a lack of depth but it seems that if a couple of players are missing (this week Membrey and Webster) or have a sub par game (too many to mention) we fall away very quickly.
Last night was one week. As we have seen there is a lot that can change in the space of a week.


While in part true, last night we were not 5% off. Three quarters of our team were mentally not present. One knew this after 10 minutes and it barely changed for the whole game.

Apart from Carlisle, Savage, Stevens and Sins it was pretty pitiful.


I agree. My reference to the 5% was more a general comment across the board. The competition is so even that just a small drop in performance can make a big difference.
Last night we were a mile off what we did last week. It will be interesting to see how we respond against the Swans.
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