Richo is a very good coach

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Richo is a very good coach

Postby bbm » Sun 09 Jul 2017 9:36pm

I've taken a lot of heart at his patient and measured development of our team over the last few years. The players obviously play for him and believe in the game plan. He has backed players where some of us wouldn't have eg Billy Longer. He has had the courage to make talented players eg. Acres really earn their spot and understand what it takes to play at AFL Level.
What resonated the most with me when he started and when we were struggling was the emphasis to play on more often than not and take the game on. Yes it looked bad sometimes but you could tell he was teaching them a game plan and a style that was aggressive and would get in our players DNA eventually.
To see it all come together last night was a testament to him and the players and the club for backing him and I just reckon we are in very good hands at the moment.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby White Winmar » Sun 09 Jul 2017 10:13pm

It reminds me of Geelong in the early noughties. I took eight years to build the list and get it to where it needed to be. Bomber Thompson was one game from the sack after the cats missed the finals in 2006 and started 2007 at 2-3. Interestingly, the game where it was all on the line for them was a game against Richmond at the dome. The cats won by over one hundred points that night, saved Fishlip's job, and lost only one more game that year in going onto a record breaking GF win. Interesting also that Peter Summers and Matt Finnis sought the Geelong hierarchy out in formulating the plan for a flag by 2020. Coincidence? I think not. Spooky parallels. Let's hope it pans out the same way.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby SaintPav » Sun 09 Jul 2017 10:21pm

White Winmar wrote:It reminds me of Geelong in the early noughties. I took eight years to build the list and get it to where it needed to be. Bomber Thompson was one game from the sack after the cats missed the finals in 2006 and started 2007 at 2-3. Interestingly, the game where it was all on the line for them was a game against Richmond at the dome. The cats won by over one hundred points that night, saved Fishlip's job, and lost only one more game that year in going onto a record breaking GF win. Interesting also that Peter Summers and Matt Finnis sought the Geelong hierarchy out in formulating the plan for a flag by 2020. Coincidence? I think not. Spooky parallels. Let's hope it pans out the same way.


Remember the rivalry between the Cats and the Saints in 2003 and 2004. I thought they had a real chip on their shoulder about the media hype we were getting. We were the better team for about 5 minutes so they ended up being right but thought they were a bit sooky about it for a while.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby White Winmar » Sun 09 Jul 2017 10:28pm

In the end though, Pav, they lead the flag count, 3-0. I thought we had far more talent than they did in 04-05. They went past us when the GT/Butterrssssss wars broke out and their unbelievable luck with father son picks came good. It still rankles, especially when it was Chapman and Scarlett were involved in the winning goal in 09 when we were clearly superior.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby SaintPav » Sun 09 Jul 2017 10:34pm

Sure but it really irked them that we were all the rage. They made a real point of it and it seemed really petty.

Seems we have SFA to show for that period (2004 - 2011) but we were much better than that.

They have their dynasty and we have SFA
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby White Winmar » Sun 09 Jul 2017 10:41pm

As per usual for us. It shytes me no end as well. Just one flag is all we wanted. We were good enough to win three or four in that time span.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby thejiggingsaint » Sun 09 Jul 2017 11:47pm

Pathetic coaching in 2009 GF cost us the flag. Poor kicking from gettable positions cost us the flag in 2009 GF. We had the game there for the taking, but our "Wunderkind" Coach decided Luke Ball would be of more use to us sitting on the bench. I don't resent Geelong winning that flag. They worked hard for it ( a LOT harder than they had to in 2007) and created their own luck. Only a very embittered and resentful person would say otherwise.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby longtimesaint » Mon 10 Jul 2017 12:28am

It was definitely the one that got away as we were easily the dominant team in 09
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby Sainternist » Mon 10 Jul 2017 1:05am

thejiggingsaint wrote:We had the game there for the taking, but our "Wunderkind" Coach decided Luke Ball would be of more use to us sitting on the bench. I don't resent Geelong winning that flag. They worked hard for it ( a LOT harder than they had to in 2007) and created their own luck. Only a very embittered and resentful person would say otherwise.


And you can't blame Luke Ball for leaving. It took me a long time to come to terms with that.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby SaintPav » Mon 10 Jul 2017 8:14am

thejiggingsaint wrote:Pathetic coaching in 2009 GF cost us the flag. Poor kicking from gettable positions cost us the flag in 2009 GF. We had the game there for the taking, but our "Wunderkind" Coach decided Luke Ball would be of more use to us sitting on the bench. I don't resent Geelong winning that flag. They worked hard for it ( a LOT harder than they had to in 2007) and created their own luck. Only a very embittered and resentful person would say otherwise.


Yep they worked hard for their goals that hit the post, our missed frees not forgetting the cows blood.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby meher baba » Mon 10 Jul 2017 10:26am

White Winmar wrote:It reminds me of Geelong in the early noughties. I took eight years to build the list and get it to where it needed to be. Bomber Thompson was one game from the sack after the cats missed the finals in 2006 and started 2007 at 2-3. Interestingly, the game where it was all on the line for them was a game against Richmond at the dome. The cats won by over one hundred points that night, saved Fishlip's job, and lost only one more game that year in going onto a record breaking GF win. Interesting also that Peter Summers and Matt Finnis sought the Geelong hierarchy out in formulating the plan for a flag by 2020. Coincidence? I think not. Spooky parallels. Let's hope it pans out the same way.


When someone comes to write a history of the period, they will conclude that the RB-Butterss falling out was the main reason we didn't win a flag in the noughties with our team of stars. Both men were at fault: GT for the incredibly poor judgement of seeking and obtaining a large loan from Butterss, and Butterss for reasons I'd rather not discuss. The role of Archie "Macbeth" Fraser (who, having helped finish off GT, proceeded to tear down Butterss) cannot be underestimated. And the Saints board of the time, which was experiencing the same level of impatience in 2005--06 that the Cats board'was feeling in 2006-07. GT also claims to this day that the board consistently underfunded the football department: which I'm not sure about.

In any event, in 2006 we sacked a coach and a coaching team that was performing well by any measure and which had the support of the players. GT's reign was probably unsustainable due to the falling out with Butterss, but it doesn't seem to me that Fraser or the board tried as hard as they might to resolve the situation. Many at the club had decided that switching horses in mid-stream was the sure way to get that elusive premiership. And then Lyon represented himself to them - as he was later to do to Freo - as just the man to take a talented playing group on the verge of success to that next step.

Lyon's claims almost turned out to be correct at the Saints, and at Freo for that matter. We were lucky that Lyon turned out that he was all that said he was, and not another Tim Watson (if Lyon had been a stinker, GT now be the hero of this forum instead of remaining the all-purpose scapegoat for why we didn't win a flag in the 2000s!)

But, while GT strove to build a cohesive team from the ground up, Lyon was a chess-player to whom individuals always came second to the game plan. So, when he left, there wasn't a list so much as a set of smoking ruins. Watters was Tim Watson Mark 2 and then Summers, Richo and Finnis came along and we have sort of reverted to the early 2000s under Waldron-Butterss-GT: or, if you prefer, Geelong under Costa-Thompson and co. Richo is no chess player: he's building a team, not a system.

Allowing for the changes to the game since 2006, his game plan is not that different to GT's, which GT borrowed from Lethal at the Lions: lots of tackling pressure in the forward half, quick ball movement out of defence looking for targets inside 50. Of course, Lethal had the likes of Lynch, Brown and Akermanis to convert opportunities, and GT had Gehrig, Milne, young Riewoldt and (sometimes) Hamill. Our current forward line isn't anywhere near those standards, but we didn't look half bad on Saturday night.

Which is why it's such a bugger that Membrey will most likely be out for the next few vital games!!

But I reckon the future is looking pretty good right now: especially with all the money we have in the kitty.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby carn_sainter » Mon 10 Jul 2017 10:45am

Good thread, good posts. On a tangent from meher baba, I remember warmly going to Telstra Dome in 2004 and watching the forward line walk from the huddle before the start of the game: G-Train, Kosi, Roo, Hamill, Milne and one of Guerra, Dal or Goddard. Probably too top-heavy for today's game, but the ball didn't hit the deck or rebound too often.

I think it won't be too long before I'm almost as excited to see Bruce, Membrey, Billings, Gresham, Long and Weller, Acres or maybe McCartin heading down there to start the game.

They didn't do too well, but it was great to see centre bounces in the last with both Gresham and Long in there. Those two will be clearance and ground ball weapons. They already are.

Another thing which greatly pleased me and helped us against Richmond was starting Roo so deep, in the goalsquare. I've been asking for this all year for us to have something deeper than the 50m line. I really think it worked and helped our structure. We should do it every week. Imagine Membrey one-out within 30m: he'd kick 5 every week turning his opponent inside out.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby spert » Mon 10 Jul 2017 10:46am

It's one thing building a team, but another thing to take them all the way. I don't want to see another few years of being a promising team which flops around in the middle of the ladder waiting for the year in the future when it all magically comes together.

So far so good, but Richo needs to consolidate the whole thing and get the team into the finals this season, and that will be the expected improvement over last season.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby The Fireman » Mon 10 Jul 2017 10:47am

Richo is good again.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby thejiggingsaint » Mon 10 Jul 2017 5:07pm

GT was mocked by people like Newman, Fatprick Smith, ( by the way, just where is that twat of late?) and other (ahem)"experts" for some of the innovations that are now part and parcel of AFL clubs. The club owe GT and to a degree Butterss a huge debt in lifting our fortunes.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby saynta » Mon 10 Jul 2017 5:10pm

thejiggingsaint wrote:GT was mocked by people like Newman, Fatprick Smith, ( by the way, just where is that twat of late?) and other (ahem)"experts" for some of the innovations that are now part and parcel of AFL clubs. The club owe GT and to a degree Butterss a huge debt in lifting our fortunes.



More than fair comment.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby thejiggingsaint » Mon 10 Jul 2017 5:25pm

It's something that fits into the enduring myth of the St Kilda footy club " culture " that just when we seem to be on the cusp of something great, character flaws are allowed to come into play and tragedy ensues. I reckon that the departure of Waldron as CEO played its part in things going pear-shaped. (Though with the subsequent events at Melbourne Storm, perhaps we dodged a bullet) Jim Watts (IMHO) would have been a great, possibly one of our greatest club CEO's. Frazer was BAD medicine, a real mercenary, the "brains"(?!?!) behind our exodus to Seaford ( wasn't THAT a great move ?) When I think of the 200o's and the Saints, I'm inclined to feel sad. NOT at the GF losses ( painful though they were ) but rather at the tragic loss of talent and drive in the administration of the club because of non-footy related issues.
Having said all that, if there has been anything positive gained from that period, it should be the absolute commitment NOT to let it happen again........ wait on.... this IS the Saints we're talking about here!
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby meher baba » Mon 10 Jul 2017 6:20pm

thejiggingsaint wrote:It's something that fits into the enduring myth of the St Kilda footy club " culture " that just when we seem to be on the cusp of something great, character flaws are allowed to come into play and tragedy ensues. I reckon that the departure of Waldron as CEO played its part in things going pear-shaped. (Though with the subsequent events at Melbourne Storm, perhaps we dodged a bullet) Jim Watts (IMHO) would have been a great, possibly one of our greatest club CEO's. Frazer was BAD medicine, a real mercenary, the "brains"(?!?!) behind our exodus to Seaford ( wasn't THAT a great move ?) When I think of the 200o's and the Saints, I'm inclined to feel sad. NOT at the GF losses ( painful though they were ) but rather at the tragic loss of talent and drive in the administration of the club because of non-footy related issues.
Having said all that, if there has been anything positive gained from that period, it should be the absolute commitment NOT to let it happen again........ wait on.... this IS the Saints we're talking about here!


I can't see any signs that the current board, administration and coach are at any risk of taking us towards a repeat of the 2006 debacle. But, as you say, we are the Saints!

A key protection is that we don't get ahead of ourselves. I understand why many fans, including spert on this very thread, believe that the only tenable goal for a football club is "premiership or bust". But a more sustainable approach is to aim to be as good as you can for as long as you can, so that you can grow membership, attract better sponsors, etc. That was the Waldron/Butterss/Thomas philosophy: to slowly urn St Kilda into a major club like Carlton, Collingwood, etc.

Achieving this strategy requires everyone associated with the club to remain patient and collectively hold their nerve. Losing a final always seems to be a devastating experience for many (not me: I seem to be a bit more resigned to these things), but the subsequent meltdown phase is not the right time to make long-term decisions.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby Johnny Member » Mon 10 Jul 2017 6:51pm

I still don't know what to think of Richardson as a coach.

The overriding factor in Saturday's win was the pressure and intensity. Once that was at the sustained level it was at, Richmond crumbled and we pretty much did whatever we wanted to.

It became a training drill.


I don't think Richardson did anything remarkable to be honest. Of course, he didn't do anything wrong either.

If Hardwick playing Rance on Roo all match was a masterstroke of Richo's - then so be it. But I think that's a bit of a reach to be honest. Hardwick could have moved Rance off him at any point - but didn't. It was bizarre actually.


At one point we had 22 Inside 50s for 30 points I think. So we were completely dominating them - but yet again weren't being overly efficient and effective with out scoring. Eventually,. the damn broke and we could do as we wanted. The 2nd quarter was very good.

I'd argue that the only differences between Saturday night and every other week were:

We won the ruck
We maintained the intensity for longer
We converted better
The umpiring rolled out way
Richmond was extraordinarily poor


Our midfielders were allowed 11 bounces between them! Richmond's pressure was non-existent.


I certainly couldn't state that I think he's doing a bad job - but I still aren't convinced he's doing a great job either.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby older saint » Mon 10 Jul 2017 8:24pm

Back to topic, not the past Richo coached brilliantly Saturday night. Once Rance went to Roo he kept him deep for a lot of the evening meaning Rance wasn't able to zone off. Roo is very smart so made Rance defend him. Completely out thought Hardwick on that one.

Making Martin accountable with Stevens/ Steven was great tactic and going Ross head to head with Cotchin worked well as Ross is becoming more damaging with yards gained than Cotchin.

High speed play stopped Richmond setting up there zone and exposed their mids who didn't push back.

really good game plan executed well.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby Impatient Sainter » Mon 10 Jul 2017 8:30pm

I have been critical at times of Richo and his coaching team, but am happy to concede the footy the team played is as good as footy a Saints side has looked since 2010.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby perfectionist » Mon 10 Jul 2017 8:31pm

older saint wrote:...Once Rance went to Roo he kept him deep for a lot of the evening meaning Rance wasn't able to zone off. Roo is very smart so made Rance defend him. Completely out thought Hardwick on that one...

It was a great move to put Nick at FF, which prompted Hardwick to have Rance on him. But, Nick had to deliver - and he did in spades. Confidence is a wonderful thing. The team stepped up and played out of their skims. As long as they play, they will never deliver a more dominant first half ( although I hope I'm wrong on that, 10 times this year).
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby Teflon » Mon 10 Jul 2017 9:15pm

Johnny Member wrote:I still don't know what to think of Richardson as a coach.

The overriding factor in Saturday's win was the pressure and intensity. Once that was at the sustained level it was at, Richmond crumbled and we pretty much did whatever we wanted to.

It became a training drill.


I don't think Richardson did anything remarkable to be honest. Of course, he didn't do anything wrong either.

If Hardwick playing Rance on Roo all match was a masterstroke of Richo's - then so be it. But I think that's a bit of a reach to be honest. Hardwick could have moved Rance off him at any point - but didn't. It was bizarre actually.


At one point we had 22 Inside 50s for 30 points I think. So we were completely dominating them - but yet again weren't being overly efficient and effective with out scoring. Eventually,. the damn broke and we could do as we wanted. The 2nd quarter was very good.

I'd argue that the only differences between Saturday night and every other week were:

We won the ruck
We maintained the intensity for longer
We converted better
The umpiring rolled out way
Richmond was extraordinarily poor


Our midfielders were allowed 11 bounces between them! Richmond's pressure was non-existent.


I certainly couldn't state that I think he's doing a bad job - but I still aren't convinced he's doing a great job either.


Good post
Tigers stank Saturday but we also played well but I didn't think it was extraordinary coaching that did that (in fairness though Richo has instilled a strong defensive/attack mindset that came off and that's to his credit)

Last 4 We've beaten:
North - ordinary
Gold Coast - ordinary
Freo- away but they've been ordinary/undermanned
Rich - Outplayed but their pressure was poor

I'm not down playing our form but keeping it real... should we beat a Sydney, Geel etc I'm super excited but we aren't there yet
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby White Winmar » Mon 10 Jul 2017 11:09pm

Pleasing thread. Please, MB, I really enjoy reading your posts but please don't mention Archie Fraser again. Must be close to the worst CEO we've had for a while, with Nettlefold a close second. A very divisive figure, who had difficulty playing with the other children in the sandpit. Three bullying and harassment claims by female staff was a reflection of style. Then there was Seaford and Topsy. Put us back a fair way.
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Re: Richo is a very good coach

Postby White Winmar » Mon 10 Jul 2017 11:13pm

I meant don't mention him as I'd almost forgotten about him and the post triggered me. Not a criticism of the post. A criticism of Archie Fraser. What's old Arch doing now? Wasn't he going to be CEO of the breakaway soccer league for Clive Palmer?
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