Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 08 Jul 2017 2:19pm

Scollop wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:
meher baba wrote:
Even if we could (surely unlikely), we shouldn't IMO. Our priorities, in order, should be.

1. Sign a genuine star (Kelly is the best option I reckon).

2. Throw some of our extra $$$ at our existing list, rewarding those who've come on really well.

3. If there's any left over, grab some good established talent to fill gaps.


Sorry but 2. and 3. is how GT f****** up a tilt at a flag or two. We paid too much too our young emerging stars, and players like Ball gave us no loyalty once the largess for being overpaid for results delivered finished.


I was of the view that GT helped create the foundations for success and the blueprint for a team culture including the loyalty of the list (who included most of the leaders within the core playing group). I believe that RL was the main reason the loyalty dissolved.

Without the loyalty and belief created by GT the team wouldn't have got that close under RL imo, but it's all hypothetical. I reckon GT would have got the job done if he was given a chance. But history will say he failed as did RL. Only difference is that GT wasn't given the opportunity to see the fruits of the maturity of the group. RL had the core group in their prime.

If you want to be like a politician and blame GT because RL failed as a coach that's your business.


Err I raised player payments in relation to MBs suggestions. Why are you raising completely irrelevant points?

Perhaps only debate the point I raised and not the pre-history where you and I actually agree on :idea: (Though note that the early work was done by a group including GT, RB, MK, BW and others and not GT alone).

RL is completely irrelevant to the matter of player contract management. GT managed player contracts. MB, TW, RL, SW and AR did/do not.

YES GT did things initially correctly and well. That is without dispute. But if you also do not understand that he also hamstrung our finals chance with his list MIS-management re players contracts/ payments , then you are in complete denial.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 08 Jul 2017 2:26pm

meher babaI] wrote:can't agree with you. It was the right thing to do to secure all our stars in the mid-2000s. .


Securing our stars was not the issue. Of course you want to retain your best players. However it is well known that GT signed up our stars on contracts collectively too great and that this later affected our ability to attract some extra quality when it was needed.

Hawks and Cats did not make the GT mistake with respect to player payments.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby meher baba » Sat 08 Jul 2017 2:36pm

saintsRrising wrote:[quote="meher babaI can't agree with you. It was the right thing to do to secure all our stars in the mid-2000s. .


Securing our stars was not the issue. Of course you want to retain your best players. However it is well known that GT signed up our stars on contracts collectively too great and that this later affected our ability to attract some extra quality when it was needed.

Hawks and Cats did not make the GT mistake with respect to player payments.[/quote]

"Well known" to whom? My understanding is that GT and club spent what they needed to spend to get the job done. We felt we needed to keep hold of Roo, Goddard, Dal, Ball, Lenny, Kosi, Chips, etc to have a sniff of GF action. We got it. Sure, we would have benefited from a better ruckman, but we didn't lose in 2009 or the first grand final in 2010 through the lack of a ruckman. We didn't take enough of our chances: which has always been the story with us.

Ball's and Kosi's contracts looked too high when injuries began to take their toll. Everything's easy with 20/20 hindsight. Eg, if you want to talk about a waste of contract $$$, how about Lovett?

As for the tendency of a couple on here to blame GT for everything under the sun. Yawn...I just ignore it.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby Scollop » Sat 08 Jul 2017 2:39pm

You said that GT actions with throwing extra bucks at existing players was how; "GT f'd up a tilt at a flag or 2." I thought we actually had one of the most successful periods during and immediately post the GT era.

So are you saying that despite GT being a weight and a burden on RL, Rossy still managed to get us close, but it was GT's fault that we f'd up and it was GT's fault that the team tumbled to the bottom of the ladder after the Grand Final failures.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby meher baba » Sat 08 Jul 2017 2:47pm

Scollop wrote:You said that GT actions with throwing extra bucks at existing players was how; "GT f'd up a tilt at a flag or 2." I thought we actually had one of the most successful periods during and immediately post the GT era.

So are you saying that despite GT being a weight and a burden on RL, Rossy still managed to get us close, but it was GT's fault that we f'd up and it was GT's fault that the team tumbled to the bottom of the ladder after the Grand Final failures.


That's the strange world view of some on here. Better to ignore it IMO and focus on the now.

Alternatively, you could ask how Freo has been going lately.

But that wouldn't be fair: RL was a very skilled coach and my mail is that, while the players generally didn't like him very much, they deeply respected him and thought he was the guy who was going to take them to a flag. Even Luke, until it all went pear-shaped in the 2009 GF.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby ace » Sat 08 Jul 2017 2:56pm

Scollop wrote:You said that GT actions with throwing extra bucks at existing players was how; "GT f'd up a tilt at a flag or 2." I thought we actually had one of the most successful periods during and immediately post the GT era.

So are you saying that despite GT being a weight and a burden on RL, Rossy still managed to get us close, but it was GT's fault that we f'd up and it was GT's fault that the team tumbled to the bottom of the ladder after the Grand Final failures.


I don't think it is at all relevant who stuffed up by overpaying player contracts but the fact that it did happen.
Who ever you have a love affair with, whether it be GT or RL, the fact remains we did not get a premiership because we overpaid our top 10 players.
In a sport measured by premierships someone failed big time.
Ameet admits it.
Over 60% of salary cap on 10 players and nothing available to bring in top star up players.
Fortunately Ameet will not over pay you players.
If we over pay anyone it should be Riewoldt and Montagna.
That way when you need the money for imported players you can reduce these two contracts or even put the two players out to pasture.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 08 Jul 2017 2:56pm

Scollop wrote:You said that GT actions with throwing extra bucks at existing players was how; "GT f'd up a tilt at a flag or 2." I thought we actually had one of the most successful periods during and immediately post the GT era.
.


You see things as only black and white for a coaches whole era? I certainly do not. Were GT or RL 100% bad or good for their entire stints at St Kilda? Not in my opinion.

After GT and others did all the hard yards, and many things very well, yes there were a number of f*** ups that cruelled our flag chances.

- The player contract management re overpaying too few too much.
- The in-fighting (which unfortunately has often been a St Kilda trait) when an excellent off-field team of people who had all helped to turn the club around self-destructed the club with in-fighting that tore the club apart after having done such an amazing job to resurrect it. No coach can be successful if he cannot work with most others at the club.
- The lack of moving on from a found out game plan ( A mistake that GT and RL both made. AFL is a game that keeps evolving and coaches that do not keep evolving their gameplan get found out as opposition coaches will and do work out how to counter any gameplan. Clarko kept evolving the Hawks gameplan, and this was one, but by no means the only, reason for their long run of great success).
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 08 Jul 2017 3:07pm

ace wrote:
I don't think it is at all relevant who stuffed up by overpaying player contracts but the fact that it did happen.
.


Which is why my replay to MB was please not repeat this mistake of the past. We are in an excellent position that has taken many years of planning and hard work to make.

I am confident That Bains will continue to make the right calls re player payments.

I am less confident that we will end the end land the big fish quality player, or players, that we so desperately need for this last stage and which it has been the clubs long stated intention to gain by FA or trade. (Though the Carlisle and Gresham combo is looking good at present).

I am a little nervous by ability to make the right draft picks selections. We seem to go for too many flawed diamonds for my liking. (By the way I am not critical of Billings as even the Dogs have indicated that they would have taken him over Bont).
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby meher baba » Sat 08 Jul 2017 3:17pm

ace wrote:
Scollop wrote:You said that GT actions with throwing extra bucks at existing players was how; "GT f'd up a tilt at a flag or 2." I thought we actually had one of the most successful periods during and immediately post the GT era.

So are you saying that despite GT being a weight and a burden on RL, Rossy still managed to get us close, but it was GT's fault that we f'd up and it was GT's fault that the team tumbled to the bottom of the ladder after the Grand Final failures.


I don't think it is at all relevant who stuffed up by overpaying player contracts but the fact that it did happen.
Who ever you have a love affair with, whether it be GT or RL, the fact remains we did not get a premiership because we overpaid our top 10 players.
In a sport measured by premierships someone failed big time.
Ameet admits it.
Over 60% of salary cap on 10 players and nothing available to bring in top star up players.
Fortunately Ameet will not over pay you players.
If we over pay anyone it should be Riewoldt and Montagna.
That way when you need the money for imported players you can reduce these two contracts or even put the two players out to pasture.


Ameet is going to have a far more liberal salary cap with which to work.

And I don't agree that the only measurement of success is premierships. We feel like that because we are more desperate for one than any other club. This is the main reason the board decided in 2006 to sack a coach who, by any reasonable measure, had been quite successful. They felt that the group of players we had could take us all the way with the right coach. It almost happened. I would have preferred us to stay with the coach who had a long-term build strategy with a view to become one of the top clubs for a long time. But I acknowledge the passion for another flag, even it's just one before a fall (like I suspect the Dogs have achieved).
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby meher baba » Sat 08 Jul 2017 3:21pm

sRr: now i reckon you're making it up. GT's plan was worked by other coaches? Only if you mean that they worked out a way of crippling Lenny and Kosi and causing hamstring problems to a few others. We still were a strong club in 2006. We were more than a bit unlucky that year. Maybe we'd have been worked out eventually, but it wasn't evident when GT was sacked.

And 2011 was similarly a bit unlucky for RL, although by then our list was starting to show its age.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 08 Jul 2017 5:07pm

Well ignoring our difference views on the merits of the Rendell Gameplan post-Streak, getting back on topic at present while the Saints are in the 8, we have only beaten one team in the 8. Our form has hardly bean sparkling either in our losses and even in many of our wins.

So IMO now is not the time to over-reward players with big $$$. Now is the time to keep to the minimum with our salary cap so that it is bank so that we can be paying 105% in the years that count. Yes players on the improve like Ross and Billings get more, but 2017 has in the main been a year of not that many players improving.

Bains needs to hold his nerve, and I am confident that he will.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Sat 08 Jul 2017 5:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby Scollop » Sat 08 Jul 2017 5:07pm

ace wrote:
Scollop wrote:You said that GT actions with throwing extra bucks at existing players was how; "GT f'd up a tilt at a flag or 2." I thought we actually had one of the most successful periods during and immediately post the GT era.

So are you saying that despite GT being a weight and a burden on RL, Rossy still managed to get us close, but it was GT's fault that we f'd up and it was GT's fault that the team tumbled to the bottom of the ladder after the Grand Final failures.


I don't think it is at all relevant who stuffed up by overpaying player contracts but the fact that it did happen.
Who ever you have a love affair with, whether it be GT or RL, the fact remains we did not get a premiership because we overpaid our top 10 players.
In a sport measured by premierships someone failed big time.
Ameet admits it.
Over 60% of salary cap on 10 players and nothing available to bring in top star up players.
Fortunately Ameet will not over pay you players.
If we over pay anyone it should be Riewoldt and Montagna.
That way when you need the money for imported players you can reduce these two contracts or even put the two players out to pasture.


Bulldust

According to some of the commentary lately on SEN with former Kanga's players and also some current player managers, The Kangas were paying 25% of their cap on 1 player alone when Wayne was King. Didn't stop them winning 2 flags
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby Vazelos » Sat 08 Jul 2017 6:33pm

We have to resign Billings, Roberton and Sinclair on top of attracting a Free Agent.
All these 3 will demand bigger contracts than their current ones.
I am sure they have started negotiating but the only player to have resigned has been Webster.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby White Winmar » Sat 08 Jul 2017 7:12pm

Vazelos wrote:We have to resign Billings, Roberton and Sinclair on top of attracting a Free Agent.
All these 3 will demand bigger contracts than their current ones.
I am sure they have started negotiating but the only player to have resigned has been Webster.

This is the first priority. Other clubs are sniffing around so let's make sure we don't get one of our own pinched while we are pinching someone else's. If we get one big fish and a FA, then we'll have done well. It's a tough market out there and thinking we're going to get up to four guns is indulging in a bit of wishful thinking. In Ameet we trust.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 08 Jul 2017 7:24pm

Yes 4 guns is fantasy. 2 is possible.

Not even one would not be pleasing.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby Dave McNamara » Tue 11 Jul 2017 10:22pm

St Chris wrote:
SMS wrote:Rocky 800k FA 3 years
Lever $1m 2017 First 5 years
Whitfield $750k 2017 First 4 years
Kelly $1.2m 2018 First 5 years



Rocky FA - Easy, tick, would want more than $800k though. Lions wouldn't match, AFL would give them Band 1 compo for sure.
Lever - Pick 14, 3rd defender type, hasn't put a foot wrong, 21 Y.O, wanted by every Victorian club. Swap for Saints 2017 pick (8-12 ish) & steak knives (depth player or later pick)
Whitfield - Pick 1, Contracted, solid mid without dominating, wants out but if GWS are losing Kelly, they can bump his salary to change his mind. Would need a mid first and 2nd to get the deal done, maybe Saints 2018 pick & 2nd rounder from trading Hickey
Kelly - Pick 2, gun mid, every club in the comp would want him, high profile move will bump up the cost, bidding war will get played out (like Treloar), would need 2 top 10 picks to get it done, Hawks 2017 pick is one, but where does the other come from?? Would we do it if we had to trade out Paddy??

Can't fault your ambition, but I can't see us pulling all of these together. I reckon if we can pull off 2 of these, we should be over the moon, and would instantly be stronger come 2018.

I like where your heading here Chris.

Not sure about Rocky commanding more than $800K though? I'd be wanting some serious performance-based clauses in his contract to make him earn it.
And Whitfield should only cost us the one first rounder, no added second round sweetener for mine. Also, word on the street is that $$$ isn't Lachie's main motivation to get out of Woganville.
I just think also, that we're one first rounder short of having enough draft currency to pull it all off. So we'd also have to throw in a player/s to have a hope. (A certain ruckman's trade value may just have risen over the weekend... :wink: )

Other than those few 'tweaks', as I said, I really really like the sound of your thinking Chris! :D And this is the year for us to do this! We're ready to apply the finishing touches to the rebuild.



PS: I'd also be more than happy to have Shiel instead of Kelly. (And he may well be a bit cheaper too...?)
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby The OtherThommo » Fri 14 Jul 2017 12:05pm

Scratch Fyfe off the list - http://www.theage.com.au/afl/fremantle- ... xb2p6.html

On the matter of paying overs for the top end, in GT's time, one of the reasons it blew out was the contracts were written so that a one off 'performance bonus' (e.g. B & F win) became part of the base salary the following year. Sorta like compounding.

And, GT wrote the contracts.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby Sainter_Dad » Fri 14 Jul 2017 12:08pm

The OtherThommo wrote:Scratch Fyfe off the list - http://www.theage.com.au/afl/fremantle- ... xb2p6.html



I always knew this was the way that Fyfe was going to pan out.

Kelly and Whitfield for mine!
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby suss » Fri 14 Jul 2017 1:29pm

The OtherThommo wrote:Scratch Fyfe off the list - http://www.theage.com.au/afl/fremantle- ... xb2p6.html

On the matter of paying overs for the top end, in GT's time, one of the reasons it blew out was the contracts were written so that a one off 'performance bonus' (e.g. B & F win) became part of the base salary the following year. Sorta like compounding.

And, GT wrote the contracts.


That would be astonishing if true (not saying you are, but surely we couldn't be so unprofessional).
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby The OtherThommo » Fri 14 Jul 2017 2:02pm

suss wrote:
The OtherThommo wrote:Scratch Fyfe off the list - http://www.theage.com.au/afl/fremantle- ... xb2p6.html

On the matter of paying overs for the top end, in GT's time, one of the reasons it blew out was the contracts were written so that a one off 'performance bonus' (e.g. B & F win) became part of the base salary the following year. Sorta like compounding.

And, GT wrote the contracts.


That would be astonishing if true (not saying you are, but surely we couldn't be so unprofessional).


From a Crikey item in 2005:

"Right now Thomas is under the media griller not just because he’s coaching the pre-season premiership favourite that’s lost more games than it’s won, but his whole coaching and team management methodology is under fire – especially his persistence to negotiate all his players’ contracts personally."

https://www.crikey.com.au/2005/07/01/wi ... be-let-go/

Slobbo in 2010:

"Thomas was coach during Waldron's tenure and played a leading role in completing player contracts before, during and after Waldron's time at the club."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/s ... 429ba0a5eb

The AFL in '13 referring to Russell Holmesby's book:

"The book also dispels the myth that Grant Thomas agitated for Blight's removal because he coveted the job himself. But it also explains how quickly Thomas ingrained himself with all aspects of the club's football operations once he was installed as coach after Blight's sacking, to the point where he was negotiating player contracts."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-05-02/s ... gh-loyalty
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby meher baba » Fri 14 Jul 2017 4:47pm

So GT negotiated contracts that meant we hung onto our core of key players and therefore had a couple of cracks at a premiership in 2009 and 2010? Shame on him!

My memory of the post-GT era is that we inexplicably signed ordinary players to multi-year contracts, blew a high draft pick and quite a lot of our salary cap on Lovett, etc.

Of course, some of you keyboard warriors would have done a lot better: eg, you'd have miraculously persuaded Riewoldt, Lenny, Chips, Dal, etc to resist the offers from other clubs and stay for less money.

I believe that the club is in the process of signing up Billings and Roberton to more valuable contracts, with I assume others to follow. No doubt some of the great geniuses of SS would be telling them to accept peanuts or piss off and Jack and Dylan would be saying "yeah, great, we'll stay on the same money: how presumptive of us to expect more."

Dream on.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby suss » Fri 14 Jul 2017 5:13pm

MB, labelling critics "keyboard warriors" because they take issue with a guy coaching, negotiating and drafting the ******* players' contracts is a smidge rich isn't it? Surely, there needs to be some degree of separation between the roles?

There wouldn't be a club anywhere in AFL land getting away with it now (and I doubt there was then other than us). He did a lot of good things, but that's just bonkers.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby meher baba » Fri 14 Jul 2017 5:33pm

suss wrote:MB, labelling critics "keyboard warriors" because they take issue with a guy coaching, negotiating and drafting the ******* players' contracts is a smidge rich isn't it? Surely, there needs to be some degree of separation between the roles?

There wouldn't be a club anywhere in AFL land getting away with it now (and I doubt there was then other than us). He did a lot of good things, but that's just bonkers.


Whether it's bonkers or not depends on whether it's done well or badly: there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the idea of someone other than a full-time list manager negotiating player contracts. Ameet Bains seems to be both the club's in-house lawyer and (according to posters on here) our chief contract negotiator: that's not how these things are done anywhere I've ever worked. The lawyer is meant to provide independent advice on the contractual arrangements. But Bains is doing well, as far as I can see.

If it's true that GT negotiated some key contracts, the outcome seems to have been ok: ie, we hung onto who we wanted and we let go those we didn't need. Maybe we used up too much of our salary cap: but the core list that was retained through those contract negotiations went on to have one of the most dominant home and away seasons of any club in recent times in 2009, almost winning the GF, and then proceeded to draw the GF in 2010.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby saintsRrising » Fri 14 Jul 2017 6:23pm

meher baba wrote:

If it's true that GT negotiated some key contracts, .


That you write this would indicate that your knowledge on the topic is low.

It is 100% known that GT did the players contracts.

As to your "keyboard warriors" barb.

I would prefer to believe those that have reviewed what was done as part of their professional duties at StKilda ( ie Bains and Pelchen), and who have put in place our current list management strategies over someone who does not even know that GT was responsible for player contracts but who despite this feels free to advise what occurred anyway.
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Re: Why not Rocky, Lever, Kelly and Whitfield?

Postby meher baba » Fri 14 Jul 2017 6:47pm

saintsRrising wrote:
meher baba wrote:

If it's true that GT negotiated some key contracts, .


That you write this would indicate that your knowledge on the topic is low.

It is 100% known that GT did the players contracts.

As to your "keyboard warriors" barb.

I would prefer to believe those that have reviewed what was done as part of their professional duties at StKilda ( ie Bains and Pelchen), and who have put in place our current list management strategies over someone who does not even know that GT was responsible for player contracts but who despite this feels free to advise what occurred anyway.


You don't get it: my point was that I don't care who it was who negotiated contracts with whom. All I care about is what the outcome was.

If you and others say it was GT, then I'm happy to go along with that. I'm simply saying that, whoever it was, the outcomes seemed to be ok.

You seem to be saying it wasn't, and now seem to be suggesting that Pelchen and Bains agree with you. Is that what you're saying? Have you proof?

Otherwise, you just seem to be back playing your decade-old game of blaming GT for everything you don't like.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
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meher baba
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