Longer - say it loud and proud

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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678717Post saynta »

To the top wrote:The only question I would ask is how many times, in Longer's 50 AFL games, has his opposite number been BOG or very near BOG?

Perhaps someone can go thru those 50 games and list the opposition best players in those games.

If you wish to add to the 1966 Premiership, such a situation cannot maintain.

The great ruckmen from my time, so the Neil Button's, the Rick Davies' and the Peter Carey's became champion forwards - as did Peter Darley before them.

Such was their ability.

And they all played in Premiership sides - and multiple.

That is the difference.
Sorry. :oops: :oops:

Never even heard of any of them.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678720Post saynta »

The OtherThommo wrote:
carn_sainter wrote:
perfectionist wrote:Michael Gardiner has been the best ruckman we have had in the last 20 years. Had he not done his hammy in the first quarter of GF1, then who knows what might have happened in the last quarter. Before him, Lazar Vidovic was the best in the previous 20 years - and we know what happened to him in the last five minutes of the last H&A game in 1997. Before him, Brian Mynott was our best ruckman, a serviceable player who got better with age and was a Vic representative late in his career, and did what was required in the 1966 GF. Billy does a good job in the ruck and is easily our best option at the moment. We need someone who is 210 cm tall, skilled on both sides and with the pace of Nick Winmar. Should be an easy pick up.

Good post, but i think you're neglecting to mention Peter Spider Everitt who, despite being labelled the ratty Frankston youth he may or may not have been, was an absolute gun. If i could resurrect an ex saints ruckman to join the team now, I'd take Spider
Tick.

Jeff Sarau wasn't too bad.

And in gf1 in 2010, we actually were getting pumped when gardiner was in the ruck. Kosi and the team did much better after half time


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678723Post skeptic »

I think most on here would agree that Billy's influence around the ground is the aspect of his game that is lacking


The question is: do we think he can improve in this regard?


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678784Post IluvHarvey »

Longer has played 8 games this year for a total of 7 kicks and 12 Marks.
Does not provide anything after a ruck contest.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678786Post stonecold »

IluvHarvey wrote:Longer has played 8 games this year for a total of 7 kicks and 12 Marks.
Does not provide anything after a ruck contest.
Well, that's still one more thing than Hickey provides in he's current form!!!!!


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678789Post IluvHarvey »

stonecold wrote:
IluvHarvey wrote:Longer has played 8 games this year for a total of 7 kicks and 12 Marks.
Does not provide anything after a ruck contest.
Well, that's still one more thing than Hickey provides in he's current form!!!!!
You are happy that the tallest player on our list averages 1.5 marks per game?
I sure as hell aren't. That is 100% not good enough. Even Lonie who is the smallest on our list averages more.
Longer competes at bounces but hitouts to advantage numbers are too low for someone whose only contribution is hit outs.
We may as well play Holmes if that's all we want from a ruckman.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678790Post Jacks Back »

IluvHarvey wrote:
stonecold wrote:
IluvHarvey wrote:Longer has played 8 games this year for a total of 7 kicks and 12 Marks.
Does not provide anything after a ruck contest.
Well, that's still one more thing than Hickey provides in he's current form!!!!!
You are happy that the tallest player on our list averages 1.5 marks per game?
I sure as hell aren't. That is 100% not good enough. Even Lonie who is the smallest on our list averages more.
Longer competes at bounces but hitouts to advantage numbers are too low for someone whose only contribution is hit outs.
We may as well play Holmes if that's all we want from a ruckman.
+1

Goldstein was rated top for them and Longer the lowest rated for us in the herald sun (6th for them and second last for us on AFL site). Embarrassing.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678791Post takeaway »

IluvHarvey wrote:
stonecold wrote:
IluvHarvey wrote:Longer has played 8 games this year for a total of 7 kicks and 12 Marks.
Does not provide anything after a ruck contest.
Well, that's still one more thing than Hickey provides in he's current form!!!!!
You are happy that the tallest player on our list averages 1.5 marks per game?
I sure as hell aren't. That is 100% not good enough. Even Lonie who is the smallest on our list averages more.
Longer competes at bounces but hitouts to advantage numbers are too low for someone whose only contribution is hit outs.
We may as well play Holmes if that's all we want from a ruckman.
Wonder why he keeps getting the gig as No. 1 ruckman then??? I think the selection panel know more than us, they want a ruckman who can win or hold his own in the ruck contests, Hickey was not doing that. Having said that Billy has been good but his game last night was not his best. Maybe they will give Hickey a go at some stage.
Billy is No. 1 for me.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678795Post stonecold »

Never said I was happy with he's game last night, what I did point out was: he brings one more thing to the table than what Tom has bought at any stage since last season!!!!!

Too many posters are judging HickleDick on last years form, which he has got nowhere near!!!!!


'Cause StoneCold Said So'!!!!!

We will be great again once Billy is back playing!!!!!


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678827Post samuraisaint »

I am a Longer fan, but honestly believe that Hickey is the better footballer. He certainly provides more around the ground than Billy does. However at the moment the club seem to play Hickey one year, Billy the next, and then mix it up a bit by playing Holmesy for a few games at the end of the season when Billy and Tom are injured or cooked for the year. I honestly don't mind this as it promotes fairness and gives all three the opportunity to show what they have got.
Holmes has played a couple of very good games for us, the Geelong draw in 2015 and the 2016 Richmond win at the G the specific examples I am thinking of.
Think we need to make Hickey earn his spot back into the current side through form at Sandy, and somehow need to make Longer more accountable for his work rate and proficiency around the ground away from ruck contests. But I do honestly think Billy has suffered a little bit from what our forwards have been dealing with this year; poor supply and disposal from those disposing of the ball to him - handballs at the ground in the direction of a stationary ruckman expecting him to pick it up off the ground and somehow create the space to give it off to our advantage is clearly not a fantastic strategy, and is perhaps one of the reasons why individuals have been dropped from the side.
I thnk we need to keep both Billy and Tom on the list, with Jason probably making way for Lewis Pierce next year.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678831Post SydneySainter »

While I agree that Longer provides more at the ruck contests than Hickey, do we know what is average hit outs to advantage are? Are they so good that it makes up for how little footy he gets elsewhere on the field?


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678834Post samoht »

Hickey is injury prone, is not as robust as Longer.
That's his only shortfall.

I don't rate hitouts - and Longer doesn't average more than Hickey does, anyway.
And on hitouts to advantage - on a good day a ruckman might get 10 hitouts to advantage and 6 hitouts to disadvantage (yes, these do happen).
So for a net of 4 hitouts to advantage - which don't guarantee anything, anyway - the advantaged player still gets tackled or chased and the chain still gets broken down more often than not, what is the big deal with hitouts?!?!?!


So given the uselessness of hitouts - a ruckman who is in the thick of it has to average, let's say, at least 10 kicks, take 6 important marks and dish out 5 accurate handballs - a measly 15 possessions around the ground -to earn his keep.
Longer is not doing that!
Hickey could if he had an injury- free run, but his body won't allow that.
Which brings us to Pierce - why isn't he getting a chance?
Last edited by samoht on Sun 18 Jun 2017 11:58am, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678836Post Johnny Member »

BigMart wrote:He's hopeless

He is playing AFL because he's big... not because he's good

He dropped a mark last week an U14 would have taken.
Tend to agree.


Not sure what he's supposed to be bringing to the table to be honest.


He tries hard, but that's about it.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678838Post Johnny Member »

samoht wrote:Hickey is injury prone, is not as robust as Longer.
That's his only shortfall.

I don't rate hitouts - and Longer doesn't average more than Hickey does, anyway.
And on hitouts to advantage - on a good day a ruckman might get 10 hitouts to advantage and 6 hitouts to disadvantage (yes, these do happen).
So for a net of 4 hitouts to advantage - which don't guarantee anything, anyway - the advantaged player still gets tackled or chased and the chain still gets broken down more often than not.

So given the uselessness of hitouts - a ruckman who is in the thick of it has to average, let's say, at least 10 kicks, take 6 important marks and dish out 5 accurate handballs - a measly 15 possessions around the ground -to earn his keep.
Longer is not doing that!
Hickey could if he had an injury- free run, but his body won't allow that.
PIerce - why isn't he getting a chance?
Not sure I agree with the premise.

In isolation, a hitout isn't game changing.

But nothing in footy these days is in isolation!

Freo for example. They are a different team when Sandilands plays, as are West Coast with Natanui.

And it's not just because they get hitouts - it's because they structure their game around the ball being in certain parts of the ground. Every player knows where the hitout is going, and players setup across the ground accordingly. Sometimes we see what you mentioned above, that "the advantaged player still gets tackled or chased and the chain still gets broken down more often than not" but what we don't see is that regardless of that incident in isolation, the game is being played on their terms and where they want it on the ground.

It's kind of like Melbourne Storm roosting the ball out of bounds on the 3rd tackle about 20m out from their own goal. The average mug sees that and thinks 'Dude, what did you do that for?? You just gave them the ball when you still had 3 tackles left and were only 40m from your own line??'

But what they're doing, is trying to get the game into a position that they've trained for and prepared for. They know they won't score immediately from doing it, but they are confident that their opponents having the ball 20m out from their Defensive line allows the Storm to set up defensively and try to score in 2-3 sets time.

It's the same for a lot of teams with good tap ruckman. They get to play the game on their terms.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678839Post Spinner »

samoht wrote:Hickey is injury prone, is not as robust as Longer.
That's his only shortfall.

I don't rate hitouts - and Longer doesn't average more than Hickey does, anyway.
And on hitouts to advantage - on a good day a ruckman might get 10 hitouts to advantage and 6 hitouts to disadvantage (yes, these do happen).
So for a net of 4 hitouts to advantage - which don't guarantee anything, anyway - the advantaged player still gets tackled or chased and the chain still gets broken down more often than not.

So given the uselessness of hitouts - a ruckman who is in the thick of it has to average, let's say, at least 10 kicks, take 6 important marks and dish out 5 accurate handballs - a measly 15 possessions around the ground -to earn his keep.
Longer is not doing that!
Hickey could if he had an injury- free run, but his body won't allow that.
Which brings us to Pierce - why isn't he getting a chance?

This is possibly the most thoughtless post I have seen.

If hitouts and rucks are so 'useless' then just play another midfielder / tall utility because I'd much prefer them to get their 15 touches than a ruck if they are so important...

Rucks main priority is to impact the ruck contest. Plain and simple. The around the ground stuff is complimentary.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678840Post samoht »

Johnny member ...
It's an iffy way to play the game, these are iffy terms. Too wish-washy.
There's no ifs and buts when a ruckman takes saving marks or dishes out accurate handballs or kicks the ball to a team mate.
That's when something decisive happens.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678841Post samoht »

Spinner wrote:
samoht wrote:Hickey is injury prone, is not as robust as Longer.
That's his only shortfall.

I don't rate hitouts - and Longer doesn't average more than Hickey does, anyway.
And on hitouts to advantage - on a good day a ruckman might get 10 hitouts to advantage and 6 hitouts to disadvantage (yes, these do happen).
So for a net of 4 hitouts to advantage - which don't guarantee anything, anyway - the advantaged player still gets tackled or chased and the chain still gets broken down more often than not.

So given the uselessness of hitouts - a ruckman who is in the thick of it has to average, let's say, at least 10 kicks, take 6 important marks and dish out 5 accurate handballs - a measly 15 possessions around the ground -to earn his keep.
Longer is not doing that!
Hickey could if he had an injury- free run, but his body won't allow that.
Which brings us to Pierce - why isn't he getting a chance?

This is possibly the most thoughtless post I have seen.

If hitouts and rucks are so 'useless' then just play another midfielder / tall utility because I'd much prefer them to get their 15 touches than a ruck if they are so important...

Rucks main priority is to impact the ruck contest. Plain and simple. The around the ground stuff is complimentary.
We've gone through this before - of course you want a contest in the ruck! Hitouts are rendered useless, because it's a nil all draw, when it's one giant vs another giant or one fairly tall player vs a giant, at least.
But the giant who takes the important marks and gets more involved in the general play in a decisive way - is the winner.
Blake was effective for us because he was contesting in the ruck - even with his smaller stature of 189 cm - and he was more than making up for it (for his "short-arseness") by getting close to 20 important possessions around the ground, consistently.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678959Post thejiggingsaint »

Rix rox rux? As dear old barks used to put it! :lol: :lol:


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1678970Post To the top »

Practice match I know but our 2 best when we pushed Sydney in a practice match were Armitage and Hickey - both absent when they creamed us

I do recall Hickey taking a big defensive mark late and in a back pocket to contribute to a win in one of his 4 (four) games this year

If Longer had played that match we lose


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Post: # 1679079Post citywest »

When I saw the heading I thought maybe Longer had come out of the closet and admitted to being gay or something!!????


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1679084Post Sainternist »

thejiggingsaint wrote:Rix rox rux? As dear old barks used to put it! :lol: :lol:
Yes, we seem to be back in that old rucking conundrum.

I wonder how dear old Barks is going these days. Possibly lurking the forums every so often and restraining himself from posting.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1679113Post Ellaandjohn »

Longer isn't very good. Hits the ball and then gets in everyone's way. Rather hickey by far but isn't happening. Got to live with I suppose


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1679114Post WellardSaint »

Ellaandjohn wrote:Longer isn't very good. Hits the ball and then gets in everyone's way. Rather hickey by far but isn't happening. Got to live with I suppose


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agree. He got 6 handballs, one mark (I think) so I don't know why they persist with him.

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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1679115Post longtimesaint »

WellardSaint wrote:
Ellaandjohn wrote:Longer isn't very good. Hits the ball and then gets in everyone's way. Rather hickey by far but isn't happening. Got to live with I suppose


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agree. He got 6 handballs, one mark (I think) so I don't know why they persist with him.

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Yes the one mark was when North kicked it straight to hm and he marked it almost by reflex.
I also prefer Hickey as he takes marks and has possessions around the ground.


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Re: Longer - say it loud and proud

Post: # 1679118Post aaron82 »

I'm not a Longer fan at all. When he does somehow end up with the ball the opposition know that he is going to handball to a nearby midfielder behind and immediately set up for it. I believe the bulldogs left Longer on his own as they were very likely to get the ball back if he is disposing it via hand placing our midfielders under immediate pressure.

Not only that, the opposition ruckman are dominating. McEvoy, Kruezer, Jacobs and Goldstein all had a big impact and received coaches association votes.

It's a pity Hickey was unfit during the pre season and then injured. Longer makes the original triple bagel Trent Knobel look brilliant!


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