Is it all doom and gloom?

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Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1676923Post Johnny Member »

This season, of course it is.

You know my view, as per the 'We're Just Not Good Enough' thread as to where our list is at and the fact that we don't have enough really good players. We constructed a plan to get "3 picks in the top 20 for 3 years" and pretty much achieved that. The problem is that we didn't nut any pearls in that period.

We expected to. And anticipated it. We set our targets and goals based on it. But it didn't work out how we thought.


The 'We're Just Not Good Enough' thread was based on the club's very public plan of "top 4 by 2018 and a flag by 2020".

I think in hindsight, that plan was a mistake and most likely is the reason we're in the s*** we're in now.

Now I'm making some assumptions here, but I think reasonable ones:

When a coach arrives and gets told that his team must be top by 4 by 2018 and win a flag by 2020, it's reasonable for him to set out to achieve that. It's also not really an unreasonable expectation, given that he had time, and was being drip fed top 20 draft picks including a pick 1 and a pick 3 early on.

I don't think Richardson would have complained too much about the task he'd been set either. I didn't, as a spectator. I think it all looked fair and quite reasonable.


But fast forward to now, and it's obvious that we're nowhere near being a top 4 side. And looking at what we've got out on the park - we still won't be close in 2018.

But who's fault is this?

I don't like what Richardson is bringing to the table in terms of strategy - but we've got to be fair about it. You can't on one hand lament how s*** our list is, but then also blame the coach for us not being able to play the way he wants us to.

I actually blame the club.

I'm assuming that the club's blueprint for success still stands. We've heard nothing to suggest it doesn't, and frankly we're being coached to suggest that it certainly still stands. I'm assuming that Richardson will probably lose his job if he can't achieve the goal he was set when he was hired. He was told he had to have the team in the top by 2018, and winning a flag by 2020.

And as per above, the club was going to provide him the cattle to do it. But the club hasn't lived up to their end of the deal. They haven't delivered him the cattle. Not yet anyway.

This 'core' looks pretty good to me:

Steven
Ross
Stevens
Armitage
Carlisle
Steele
Roberton
Webster
Billings
Acres
McCartin
Gresham
Bruce
Hickey
Membrey
Goddard
Freeman
Long
Battle
Pick x (from Hawthorn this year)
Pick x (ours this year)
Big fish

Some picks and guys in there are speculative of course - but that's the point. The above 'core' is nowhere near good enough to be top 4 by next year. But it well and truly could be in 2 years time. In 3-4 years time is actually when realistically the above group will be at that prime age bracket.

So if the coach is still coaching toward us being top 4 by next year, then he's going to fail. The players just aren't up to it yet. And the issue is that if he is coaching for top 4 by next year - what sort of long term damage can be done in the meantime?

Could we be stifling guys in the ressies just so we can carry out the clubs plan? Could we be giving up high picks for 'big fish'? Could we be playing guys in 'safe' positions instead of experimenting?


It's not all doom and gloom for the Saints. The current group with some more talent added over the next year or two will be really good. Not next year or the year after though. But in 3-4.

But if the club and coach keep sticking to the 'blueprint for success' then we may well be in trouble for quite a while. The club really needs to bite the bullet, and admit they got it wrong. The idea was right, but the execution failed. No biggie.

It's only a biggie if you don't accept it and change direction.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1676927Post whiskers3614 »

Did they really believe the top 4 by 2018 or was it just a marketing ploy to keep supporters and members quiet for a while?
Are we really going to feel let down if we flop into seventh or eighth next year, and win our first final?


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1676930Post Johnny Member »

whiskers3614 wrote:Did they really believe the top 4 by 2018 or was it just a marketing ploy to keep supporters and members quiet for a while?
Are we really going to feel let down if we flop into seventh or eighth next year, and win our first final?
I hope it was just marketing.

But, the way we seem to be being coached suggests that it was genuine.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1676932Post dragit »

I think the 'road to 2018' manifesto was pretty aspirational, if it were that easy we'd have more than one flag by now.

I think Richo needs to probably make the finals next year rather than top 4, but 8th spot might still be tough if Riewoldt and Montagna decide to hang up the boots and we don't add any mature talent.

I still can't see the harm in going hard after a star free agent for next year, we have the money so it seems silly to be ruling ourselves out of 2 top ten players of the comp.

If we added a D.Martin or Rockliff & Pittard via free agency, traded in Whitfield or Kelly… we would win more games than we lose next year IMO.

The forward line is a bit of a mess at the moment while we try and get games into Paddy who isn't getting it done, Bruce & Membrey are solid players, but over-rated by saints supporters… we could really use two Carlisles.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677088Post Con Gorozidis »

whiskers3614 wrote:Did they really believe the top 4 by 2018 or was it just a marketing ploy to keep supporters and members quiet for a while?
Are we really going to feel let down if we flop into seventh or eighth next year, and win our first final?
If we win a final next year I will be popping the champagne. Seems a remote possibility at this stage.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677095Post whiskers3614 »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
whiskers3614 wrote:Did they really believe the top 4 by 2018 or was it just a marketing ploy to keep supporters and members quiet for a while?
Are we really going to feel let down if we flop into seventh or eighth next year, and win our first final?
If we win a final next year I will be popping the champagne. Seems a remote possibility at this stage.
me too.
It seems that some on here have taken Pelchen's manifesto too literally.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677113Post WellardSaint »

lucky we won those games against bottom teams
and fluked the Giants win,
just in time to suck members in with false hope.

Anyone who knows Greek mythology would know the travels of Odysseus (Roman Ulysses)
and in particular, when he encountered the island inhabited by Circe, the sorceress.
His crew had left the siege of Troy, and were journeying back to family.
They were tired, worn out, disillusioned, and living day to day,
when they landed on Circe's island "just to stock up on fresh water and much needed provisions"

Circe, being incredibly lonely and desperate for company, cast a spell on Odysseus so that he lost track of time.
He did what blokes of that era did, and played house with Circe
which made her real happy.
Every now and again, his men would come to Circe's house and plead with Odysseus to jump in their ship and head home.
Each time, he said "we've only been here a week, just rest fellas"
After about a year of this, Circe turned the Greek sailors into pigs to stop them nagging Odysseus.

I think Matt Finnis and the brains trust might be keen students of Greek mythology.
Keep promising us "it's just around the corner, be patient, we're on the right track"
:shock: :roll:


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677116Post Con Gorozidis »

WellardSaint wrote:lucky we won those games against bottom teams
and fluked the Giants win,
just in time to suck members in with false hope.

Anyone who knows Greek mythology would know the travels of Odysseus (Roman Ulysses)
and in particular, when he encountered the island inhabited by Circe, the sorceress.
His crew had left the siege of Troy, and were journeying back to family.
They were tired, worn out, disillusioned, and living day to day,
when they landed on Circe's island "just to stock up on fresh water and much needed provisions"

Circe, being incredibly lonely and desperate for company, cast a spell on Odysseus so that he lost track of time.
He did what blokes of that era did, and played house with Circe
which made her real happy.
Every now and again, his men would come to Circe's house and plead with Odysseus to jump in their ship and head home.
Each time, he said "we've only been here a week, just rest fellas"
After about a year of this, Circe turned the Greek sailors into pigs to stop them nagging Odysseus.

I think Matt Finnis and the brains trust might be keen students of Greek mythology.
Keep promising us "it's just around the corner, be patient, we're on the right track"
:shock: :roll:
Brilliant. One of the most enlightening threads I have read on here.

Who is Circe in this allegorical tale?


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677119Post WellardSaint »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
WellardSaint wrote:lucky we won those games against bottom teams
and fluked the Giants win,
just in time to suck members in with false hope.

Anyone who knows Greek mythology would know the travels of Odysseus (Roman Ulysses)
and in particular, when he encountered the island inhabited by Circe, the sorceress.
His crew had left the siege of Troy, and were journeying back to family.
They were tired, worn out, disillusioned, and living day to day,
when they landed on Circe's island "just to stock up on fresh water and much needed provisions"

Circe, being incredibly lonely and desperate for company, cast a spell on Odysseus so that he lost track of time.
He did what blokes of that era did, and played house with Circe
which made her real happy.
Every now and again, his men would come to Circe's house and plead with Odysseus to jump in their ship and head home.
Each time, he said "we've only been here a week, just rest fellas"
After about a year of this, Circe turned the Greek sailors into pigs to stop them nagging Odysseus.

I think Matt Finnis and the brains trust might be keen students of Greek mythology.
Keep promising us "it's just around the corner, be patient, we're on the right track"
:shock: :roll:
Brilliant. One of the most enlightening threads I have read on here.

Who is Circe in this allegorical tale?

Circe can be Matt Finnis, Jamie Cox, I don't think it's Richo.
He might just be Odysseus. I don't know.
But the club wants to cast a spell over the faithful, with the Moorabbin thing as a distraction
and cleverly crafting a win against GWS to fool us into thinking finals is on the horizon
Much like the "but we've only been here a week" don't worry, we're fine... :mrgreen:


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677121Post Con Gorozidis »

WellardSaint wrote:

Circe can be Matt Finnis, Jamie Cox, I don't think it's Richo.
He might just be Odysseus. I don't know.
But the club wants to cast a spell over the faithful, with the Moorabbin thing as a distraction
and cleverly crafting a win against GWS to fool us into thinking finals is on the horizon
Much like the "but we've only been here a week" don't worry, we're fine... :mrgreen:


:D

I think all of our coaches in the last 50 years have just been Odysseus in different bodies.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677123Post The Fireman »

pretty much


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677124Post fugazi »

Sisyphus comes to mind , for those supporting St Kilda for last 30 years :(

It is mostly gloom and doom

Look at Geelong, how do they do it?


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677127Post WellardSaint »

fugazi wrote:Sisyphus comes to mind , for those supporting St Kilda for last 30 years :(

It is mostly gloom and doom

Look at Geelong, how do they do it?
touche, old boy, touche

for those who don't want to google,
Sisyphus is one of my favourites.
He upset the Greek gods by being really naughty
They punished him by making him roll a boulder up a hill each day,
and at the end of the day, it rolled down again.
He was doomed for eternity.

Sisyphus is mentioned in relation to any sort of Ground Hog day scenario of endless misery
Last edited by WellardSaint on Mon 12 Jun 2017 2:39am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677130Post Sainternist »

Any chance you can start making your posts more concise, JM?

No offense, but it's all pretty long-winded stuff. You don't need to be writing university-type papers about the current state of the team. Simply a paragraph or two could suffice. Try the "less is more" approach.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677143Post Johnny Member »

Sainternist wrote:Any chance you can start making your posts more concise, JM?

No offense, but it's all pretty long-winded stuff. You don't need to be writing university-type papers about the current state of the team. Simply a paragraph or two could suffice. Try the "less is more" approach.
I did ramble with this one.

I actually had a point but hadn't quite worked out exactly what it was yet! So I started typing trying to articulate my thoughts, and I realised I actually had two slightly different points. So I merged them into one.


In a nutshell:

We suck.
But I think we will be good in 2-3 years.
If the club pull the pin on the 'blueprint for success', then there's nothing to really worry about.
If they don't, then we're in trouble. And so is the coach.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677146Post Johnny Member »

whiskers3614 wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:
whiskers3614 wrote:Did they really believe the top 4 by 2018 or was it just a marketing ploy to keep supporters and members quiet for a while?
Are we really going to feel let down if we flop into seventh or eighth next year, and win our first final?
If we win a final next year I will be popping the champagne. Seems a remote possibility at this stage.
me too.
It seems that some on here have taken Pelchen's manifesto too literally.

I disagree.


It was the president and the CEO that announced the blueprint for success. It also included membership and other off-field targets.

Pelchen's role was the building of the list in terms of draft picks.


I've never worked in an organisation ever, ever, that doesn't set targets and take them seriously. They are literally the reason you go to work in terms of what you're trying to achieve.

I'd be staggered if the club mapped out a 'blueprint for success' and followed it to the letter to this point, but was only joking about it. It was literal. It wasn't a pie in the sky 'mission statement. It was specific and included the 'how' also.


The other factor in all this, is that we very clearly look to be being coached as a team that is aiming to be top 4 by 2018. And therein lies the issue.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677152Post tony74 »

No,it's not all doom and gloom. We're putrid at the moment, they're no excuses. Totally lacking in confidence. But it'll turn around, it's amazing how much is above the shoulders.
Anyone at Seaford this morning would have noticed an interesting combination running laps... Armo and Shinna.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677159Post saynta »

Too depressing to read entire thread. Gave up after reading a few negatives.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677171Post asiu »

i think the doom and gloom is good

better to be shite and know it
than be shite and not know it


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677184Post meher baba »

fugazi wrote:Sisyphus comes to mind , for those supporting St Kilda for last 30 years :(

It is mostly gloom and doom

Look at Geelong, how do they do it?
It took Geelong a very long time to make it. They had enormous disappointments in the Blight era: I would suggest even worse than ours during the 2004 to 2011 period (in that they were surely red hot to win at least one flag). Even after 2004 and 2005, when they appeared to be on the rise, they had a shocking season in 2006. But they didn't panic, they kept to their long-term plan, and eventually triumphed.

Success in any human endeavour requires more than just talent, skill and hard work. Patience, perseverance and a dash of good luck are also crucial. From 2000 onwards, like us, Geelong built up a strong core of talent in their side and looked destined for great things. After missing the 8 in 2006, they could have panicked, but they stuck with their plan and then got their dash of good luck in the form of Joel Selwood.

Whenever St Kilda has built up a good core of talent and start to look like we can get somewhere, we've had a tendency to panic at the first major setback, and then start chopping and changing. It happened in the 1990s when Stan Alves was sacked, and it happened after 2006 when GT was sacked. Whatever you might think were the rights and wrongs of the circumstances of their dismissals, Alves and GT were both sacked after pretty good seasons: under GT in 2006, we actually made the top 4 in the regular season, only to be robbed by an AFL decision to strip us of a point from the Freo draw.

That's why I am wildly unenthusiastic about any talk along the lines that "Richo should go". We have to stick with the plan and the coach long term. Lyon turned out to be a good coach, which was a lucky break for us IMO: it could all have gone terribly wrong. As it was, we had two pause seasons in 2007 and 2008 while the term learnt to play Lyon's style of footy.

Yes, we've lost three games in a row, but kindly note that these were against the two grand finalists from last year and the team that is currently on top of the table. I reckon we're still heading in the right direction and refuse to join the whining chorus on SS, led by Mr Dismember.

Take a chill pill everybody.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677197Post loris »

tony74 wrote:No,it's not all doom and gloom. We're putrid at the moment, they're no excuses. Totally lacking in confidence. But it'll turn around, it's amazing how much is above the shoulders.
Anyone at Seaford this morning would have noticed an interesting combination running laps... Armo and Shinna.
Is Shinna employed doing some of his fitness work with the club now tony74? That's great if the Saints have got him back in that capacity. And puts an end to all those rumours there is bad blood between Saints & Shinna. That Shinna wanted out, Saints pushed him out etc etc.

Or, maybe he's got the OK's now from medicos re his concussions - can he come back? we haven't upgraded anyone to cover his loss. We sure need him in our backline, his style of play was greatly missed the past three matches. Just wishful thinking on my part I s'pose to have him back.

Great to see Armo back & running - he's been sorely missed too. Integral part of our midfield IMHO.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677200Post spert »

Doom and Gloom..probably.

The team has been sliding since the Geelong loss, and the effort against he Crows was just insipid- no other word for it. The players clearly do not know what to do with the ball when in possession at the moment, and are not fighting out the contest.

More sadly was watching Richo's presser- he looked and sounded like a man who had run out of ideas and just prattled on about the same tired things as per every other loss. There is an obvious lack of leadership on the field, and a lack of direction off the field too I believe.

Good luck if you can turn that around..one more belting and I think Richo's exit papers will be stamped- no kidding.


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677222Post Johnny Member »

meher baba wrote:
That's why I am wildly unenthusiastic about any talk along the lines that "Richo should go". We have to stick with the plan and the coach long term. Lyon turned out to be a good coach, which was a lucky break for us IMO: it could all have gone terribly wrong. As it was, we had two pause seasons in 2007 and 2008 while the term learnt to play Lyon's style of footy.

Yes, we've lost three games in a row, but kindly note that these were against the two grand finalists from last year and the team that is currently on top of the table. I reckon we're still heading in the right direction and refuse to join the whining chorus on SS, led by Mr Dismember.

Take a chill pill everybody.
Richo can't be sacked. I don't think I've read anyone say that to be honest.


What do you base your opinion that we're heading in the right direction?

And, is that sufficient anyway? You're either going backwards or forwards in footy. Is moving forward good enough? Isn't the plan to win a flag?

So do you really believe we're on track for that with the current group? If so, how do you arrive at that conclusion?


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677231Post DJ Higgins »

No one expected us to win against a flag favourite at their venue. A venue where we have never won. However no one expected our insipid performance. It was one dimensional garbage. Richo has no plan b, long bombs to our forwards and hope like hell they mark it. Idiotic. Out backs got injured so fair play they weren't at their best and Stevens and Steele did they tagging job well. But the rest of the mids and forwards,except Bruce, should be ashamed. I flew to Adelaide to watch it live and the worse thing happened, the crow fans took pity on us.

PAddy needs to run laps at training, non stop as should billings. Both aren't fit enough, Skunk now stinks, Jade where is the camera Gresham needs to be rested as well. SKills overall are poor. I could go on.

Our season is over this weekend if we lose and I say start pumping some more games into trade bait players to get their value up. I don't think we should play vfl players that aren't ready yet as it will be a step back when we get smashed. Just knuckle down, practice the skill drills and someone, anyone, learn to kick the f@#$ing ball. I would rather a kick out on the full rather than 8 handballs that goes sidewards only to lose the ball in front of goals


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Re: Is it all doom and gloom?

Post: # 1677348Post Johnny Member »

tony74 wrote:No,it's not all doom and gloom. We're putrid at the moment, they're no excuses. Totally lacking in confidence. But it'll turn around, it's amazing how much is above the shoulders.
Tony74, not sure if you can answer this, or want to, but...

Is it really all just above the shoulders?

Is the club of the belief that we have the cattle, and the strategy to be winning games against the Geelong's and Adelaide's of the competition? And that the poor performances we've seen this year are all mental?


FWIW, I don't.

Now granted, it's just the opinion of some random dude in the stands so there's a big chance I'm wrong - but I see issues in terms of class on our list, I see issues with selection, which ties into the issues I see with a very simplistic strategy. Now I know simplistic can be good - but our simplistic is just too easy to coach against.

The GWS game is being used as 'evidence' by some as to what we're capable of, but I think that game gave us a false economy.


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