Dilemma

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saintsRrising
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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676890Post saintsRrising »

bassoon wrote:
So, what is missing - belief, skill, desire??

.
Enough elite players...and experience for our younger players.

Go back to the draft? Well history would also show that the Saints have not been for a while that good at actually getting the elite players we need. Hell we have not been good at getting elite players period.

Steven was our last one. That is a long time between drinks. There may be a few amongst our youngsters, but then again maybe not.

So personally if we can get a guaranteed elite player like Kelly, I think that I would be going for Kelly rather than backing our ability to draft an out and out gun.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676892Post WellardSaint »

saintsRrising wrote:
bassoon wrote:
So, what is missing - belief, skill, desire??

.
Enough elite players...and experience for our younger players.

Go back to the draft? Well history would also show that the Saints have not been for a while that good at actually getting the elite players we need. Hell we have not been good at getting elite players period.

Steven was our last one. That is a long time between drinks. There may be a few amongst our youngsters, but then again maybe not.

So personally if we can get a guaranteed elite player like Kelly, I think that I would be going for Kelly rather than backing our ability to draft an out and out gun.
I believe Jack Steele may well be elite. He is still 21, and averages about 18 touches a game, and 7 tackles. He only got 4 against Crows, though.
He's in top 5 in the league for tackles (he was before the bye)


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676894Post MC Gusto »

Go to the draft with what will be two top 10 picks and select best available mids

Try to trade back in to late first round early second

Take a free agent if all they cost is salary cap


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676898Post Con Gorozidis »

No dilemma because no elite player will want to come.
Draft is the only option available.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676904Post saintspremiers »

Con Gorozidis wrote:No dilemma because no elite player will want to come.
Draft is the only option available.
Luv your optimism Con!


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676905Post Sainter_Dad »

Well unless said player has been told that we are tanking for draft picks - please tell me we are tanking for draft picks - maybe we are tanking for draft picks - I hope we are tanking for draft picks

The effort of Friday night was so p!55weak we must be tanking for draft picks.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676906Post Johnny Member »

I agree.

Unless a 'big fish' is under 21-22yo then there's no point really.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676907Post Con Gorozidis »

MC Gusto wrote:Go to the draft with what will be two top 10 picks and select best available mids

Try to trade back in to late first round early second

Take a free agent if all they cost is salary cap
Yep.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676931Post bigcarl »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
MC Gusto wrote:Go to the draft with what will be two top 10 picks and select best available mids

Try to trade back in to late first round early second

Take a free agent if all they cost is salary cap
Yep.
Yep, find our own big fish in the draft.

BTW, I don't subscribe to the opinion that our drafting has been bad. I don't think McCartin is a bust or Billings. They are works in progress and will get there. They take time to develop.


We need to use he rest of this season as a development year. Just get them to go out and play without huge expectations and to play with abandon.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676964Post derby Street »

Con is right, I can't see a "gun" wanting to come to us - why would they it will be a while before we are in any premiership window. Given past history I also don't have a huge amount of confidence in our ability to draft any future guns with our 2 top 10 picks. Yes indeed a dilemma!


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676966Post Wombat15 »

derby Street wrote:Con is right, I can't see a "gun" wanting to come to us - why would they it will be a while before we are in any premiership window. Given past history I also don't have a huge amount of confidence in our ability to draft any future guns with our 2 top 10 picks. Yes indeed a dilemma!
I get that current form will hinder the incoming targets. But whats the benefit of taking two top 10 picks. Nothing in our draft history says we will get the elite talent. The underrated factor in the draft is Luck, you are drafting based on the perception that the kid will eventually turn into a gun or the player you were hoping for. we also have the issue that it does set you back further as well its gonna take the incoming kids at least another 3 seasons of development. still have 3 kids in Mack, White and Rice that need games. still have development needed from Paddy and Goddard. still need a step up from Dunstan, Acres, Billings, Longer and Hickey. cant just keep pushing this rebuild back further and further. Personally im in the mindset of spending the 2 firsts on Getting a couple of Hopper, Kelly and/or Dusty. we have the pieces in place we just have a poor forward line structure/coaching and a midfield that gets bypassed like we are preps playing with grade 6's.

the only reason id be taking 2 firsts to the draft would be if we got something in return back from the big targets or if Martin, Rocky, Kelly etc all decide to go or stay elsewhere.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676973Post WellardSaint »

Wombat15 wrote:
derby Street wrote:Con is right, I can't see a "gun" wanting to come to us - why would they it will be a while before we are in any premiership window. Given past history I also don't have a huge amount of confidence in our ability to draft any future guns with our 2 top 10 picks. Yes indeed a dilemma!
I get that current form will hinder the incoming targets. But whats the benefit of taking two top 10 picks. Nothing in our draft history says we will get the elite talent. The underrated factor in the draft is Luck, you are drafting based on the perception that the kid will eventually turn into a gun or the player you were hoping for. we also have the issue that it does set you back further as well its gonna take the incoming kids at least another 3 seasons of development. still have 3 kids in Mack, White and Rice that need games. still have development needed from Paddy and Goddard. still need a step up from Dunstan, Acres, Billings, Longer and Hickey. cant just keep pushing this rebuild back further and further. Personally im in the mindset of spending the 2 firsts on Getting a couple of Hopper, Kelly and/or Dusty. we have the pieces in place we just have a poor forward line structure/coaching and a midfield that gets bypassed like we are preps playing with grade 6's.

the only reason id be taking 2 firsts to the draft would be if we got something in return back from the big targets or if Martin, Rocky, Kelly etc all decide to go or stay elsewhere.
Well said.
The draft picks are like buying a foal from a great successful racehorse, and you put a lot of time into training them, in the hope they'll come good and contribute.
It's a massive gamble that MIGHT pay off in 3 years or so.
Seb took 5 years? Dunstan is just...umm...I won't say it.

Far better value to trade picks for someone who's a current senior player and is a KNOWN performer, has earned his stripes. Someone under 24-25 preferably.
Money is ok, the club has cap space.

Rather not gamble. Low risk, high cost but high reward.
We've done it with Koby and Steele, worked pretty well.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676976Post Sainter_Dad »

The way I see it is that drafting is like investing in the stock market - you get tips, hints, and past performance is no guarantee of future success.

A draft pick is cheaper (as in they only cost one pick whereas Kelly may cost us two) but the odds of them coming good are less than a trade. It is like investing in a start up company - the cost cheap, if it comes off you make a fortune, but the chance of failure is also high.

On the other hand - you can buy a more established share (Blue Chip etc) - the cost is more (in terms of trading picks/$$$) but the performance is known.

We have a decent portfolio - just need that 'great' little earner. A better midfield makes the whole team better, it relieves the pressure on the backline as the ball is not coming in as much, and there is a get out plan, and improves the forward line as the ball is delivered in a more efficient, and effective, manner.

My vote would be to try for a blue chip stock, and if we cannot score that way then we would need to be speculative, but it must be for mids not KPP - even if the greatest KPP was available, without an effective midfield they would be a complete waste.


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676978Post derby Street »

But can we attract a "blue chip" player to come to us ?


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Re: Dilemma

Post: # 1676986Post Wombat15 »

yeah we can. overall we've had a bad month of footy where we have been found out. The things we still have in our favour is; Salary cap and a move back to moorabbin with A grade facilities. We still have a good crop of young players and the potential incoming Blue Chippers will be coming into the idea that it will be "their midfield" and a decent pay packet. The problem then becomes sorting out the versatility of the squad.


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