On track

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Re: On track

Post: # 1676980Post satchmo »

dals_da_bomb wrote:I had to watch essendon last night.
With a heap of essendon supporters.

And it wasnt awful.
They looked good. Its painful how good they looked.

we were going to the saints v bombers game - the first footy match for the whole family.
Im planning to ensure the family come down with gastro or something that weekend. We are not going.
You could watch a replay of the crows game. That should do the trick!


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Re: On track

Post: # 1676982Post dals_da_bomb »

The only reply we have been watching is the carlton game.
I have no idea why my son loves it.
He watches it at least twice a week. Its bizarre.
Is it wrong for me not to intervene?

His so switched on for a 4yr old but he hasn't asked why we dont have any other recordings yet. He didnt realise saints played friday night - I havent informed him the bye is over.
Maybe i really should intervene. I feel awful writing this! Im terrible!


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Re: On track

Post: # 1676983Post To the top »

The optimum circumstance is to include talented youth as support roles for senior players, still performing.

So the young talent can evolve, including from the shadows of senior players.

Courtesy of the Lyon years and the decisions forced or otherwise on others, St Kilda do not have that transition.

Our experienced players are very thin on the ground.

So we are looking at kids, at young age, to carry the mantle and to perform week in and week out against teams which do have mature, skilled and experienced players, and youth in support roles.

To dismiss the likes of Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Mc Cartin, Goddard, Gresham, Freeman, White, Mc Kenzie et al at this juncture is a nonsense - and the reason St Kilda has the history it has.

I know a Club which lost its Junior program focus in the early 1960's, did not address this until later in the 1960's, then scouring the State for talent as young as 14 years of age and building until ultimate success in the mid 1970's.

What you could see during that time was the skill of those identified and sourced - not because they were BOG in the Under Age competition necessarily but because they showed skills, skills which were then rounded by a Coaching panel which put as much emphasis on practising your skills as practising on your deficiencies.

It is a process.

And St Kilda in 2017 is a work in process.

What you do do is look for those contributions which say "Class".

From there you work and you work and you work.

And you turn and you turn beneath the "elite" assessment

Then you add the experienced cream you identify to round out the product.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677024Post Con Gorozidis »

Are we really on track?
Fact 1: We are 12th.
Fact 2: We are a mid tier side in terms of ave list age. We are not a young list.

OLDEST TO YOUNGEST AVERAGE AGE
West Coast 24 years, 330 days
Greater Western Sydney 24y, 219d
Fremantle 24y, 207d
Hawthorn 24y, 184d
Essendon 24y, 102d
Geelong 24y, 18d
St Kilda 23y, 350d
Richmond 23y, 344d
Adelaide 23y, 340d
Western Bulldogs 23y, 322d
Collingwood 23y, 319d
Gold Coast 23y, 305d
Port Adelaide 23y, 286d
Carlton 23y, 299d
Sydney 23y, 265d
Melbourne 23y, 233d
North Melbourne 23y, 218d
Brisbane Lions 22y, 225d

Note: We would be a fraction younger if you remove Dempster and Joey from that list average. A bit younger again if we also remove Roo.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677035Post dragit »

What about if you also remove Savage, Weller, Wright and Holmes?


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677040Post dragit »

And Nathan Brown who is a temporary solution.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677044Post saintspremiers »

Con Gorozidis wrote:Are we really on track?
Fact 1: We are 12th.
Fact 2: We are a mid tier side in terms of ave list age. We are not a young list.

OLDEST TO YOUNGEST AVERAGE AGE
West Coast 24 years, 330 days
Greater Western Sydney 24y, 219d
Fremantle 24y, 207d
Hawthorn 24y, 184d
Essendon 24y, 102d
Geelong 24y, 18d
St Kilda 23y, 350d
Richmond 23y, 344d
Adelaide 23y, 340d
Western Bulldogs 23y, 322d
Collingwood 23y, 319d
Gold Coast 23y, 305d
Port Adelaide 23y, 286d
Carlton 23y, 299d
Sydney 23y, 265d
Melbourne 23y, 233d
North Melbourne 23y, 218d
Brisbane Lions 22y, 225d

Note: We would be a fraction younger if you remove Dempster and Joey from that list average. A bit younger again if we also remove Roo.
There bugger all difference from top to bottom so not a relevant stat


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677053Post Con Gorozidis »

saintspremiers wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Are we really on track?
Fact 1: We are 12th.
Fact 2: We are a mid tier side in terms of ave list age. We are not a young list.

OLDEST TO YOUNGEST AVERAGE AGE
West Coast 24 years, 330 days
Greater Western Sydney 24y, 219d
Fremantle 24y, 207d
Hawthorn 24y, 184d
Essendon 24y, 102d
Geelong 24y, 18d
St Kilda 23y, 350d
Richmond 23y, 344d
Adelaide 23y, 340d
Western Bulldogs 23y, 322d
Collingwood 23y, 319d
Gold Coast 23y, 305d
Port Adelaide 23y, 286d
Carlton 23y, 299d
Sydney 23y, 265d
Melbourne 23y, 233d
North Melbourne 23y, 218d
Brisbane Lions 22y, 225d

Note: We would be a fraction younger if you remove Dempster and Joey from that list average. A bit younger again if we also remove Roo.
There bugger all difference from top to bottom so not a relevant stat
True. Except for the Lions who are big outliers.

But my point is we cant pretend we are some young developing side and keep offering up excuses. Hence the stat is not relevant. It is relevant. If we are 12th it is because we are the 12th best side. All sides have some young kids in them. Most sides have similar age profiles. Which you just pointed out. That makes it relevant to the discussion of whether we are any good.

If age is insignificant as a stat (which you point out) - then maybe we just arent very good?


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677057Post BackFromUSA »

Average list age isn't what I look at. Age in team / role they play / experience doing so. The core group and their age. We have a missing generation and our sub 100 game group is huge in the context of the game day team and roles they play. +20 to 40 games and we have the necessary core to compete for top 4.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677059Post Con Gorozidis »

BackFromUSA wrote:Average list age isn't what I look at. Age in team / role they play. The core group and their age. We have a missing generation and our sub 100 game group is huge in the context of the game day team and roles they play. +20 to 40 games and we have the necessary core to compete for top 4.
I do see your point.

Our 'core' is basically Jack Steven, Geary, Nate Brown, Josh Bruce, Webster, Weller, Roberton and Carlisle.

That isnt much of a 'core'.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Mon 12 Jun 2017 1:51am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677060Post BackFromUSA »

But fast forward 2 to 3 years and look at the core that will be 22-27 years of age as other lists get too old or too young

That is our window. 2018 should see us in finals. 2019 top 4.

The window is really 2019-2024.

Longer if we keep pumping talented youth through the side.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677061Post skeptic »

I think it's pretty straight forward to be honest and it's what we've been hearing all along. We lack a few A-Graders... players that will consistently produce and bring others into the game...

Seriously, who do we have? Riewoldt, sure. Ross is more or less there... Steven has dipped a bit but fits the bill.

That's it. We have 3, we need 7 or 8 consistently good players.

The next tier down we have Bruce who is seriously underrated here (IMHO), Roberton, Carlisle, Newnes, and Gilbert.

Then we have either a bunch of players still finding there way but aren't ready... Paddy, Gresh, Dunst, Sinclair, Dasher etc.

Or we have a bunch of guys we on their day produce blistering football but need other better players to produce consistently and bring them into the game... guys like Billings, Steele, Acres, Membrey etc all have the potential to play excellent games... match winning games but they either aren't ready or will never quite be good enough to consistently bring it against the best.

At the moment we rely on this group to be the 7-12 group on this list when in actual fact they should be the 12-18 ranked players in the best 22. Steele should be the inside mid that comes on to give our primary ball winners a rest. Billings should be playing on the 3rd best stopper and so fourth.

In a nutshell, what we need is 3 excellent and consistent mids that always produce... we need a Rockcliff type urgently, he may not be elite but he always produces high numbers and gets ball. Then we need a Kelly and a some one else with some flair/speed so that Steven can get off the leash more and so fourth.

Add to that, we need to end this ruck debacle once and for all. Either Hickey gets better at taps or Longer gets more around the ball... I think pbly the former... otherwise we need to up that too.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677062Post Superboot »

Johnny Member wrote:
To the top wrote:The fact is that we still have holes that can be exploited by opposition sides in a very even competition.

The positive is that we can look to Hickey, Carlisle, Steven, Ross, Acres, Billings, Newnes, Roberton, Gilbert (and I include him because he has another couple of seasons in him and his versatility), Armitage, Bruce and Mc Cartin as the core to take us forward.

So, that is 12.

We would have hopes for Gresham, Dunstan, Steele, Freeman, Goddard, White and Mc Kenzie.

So that is another 7.

We have 2 First Round Draft Picks, plus any we can target given our Salary Cap space.

We look to build an elite 25 - then your support players from there.

There is, of course, the logistics giving structure and that will drive who we target

The fact that we have just too many ordinary players in the 22 we are putting on the field currently is putting undue pressure on those who do have a future - hence the results.
With all due respect, this post is delusional at worst. Glass half-full at best.
To the top wrote: The positive is that we can look to Hickey, Carlisle, Steven, Ross, Acres, Billings, Newnes, Roberton, Gilbert (and I include him because he has another couple of seasons in him and his versatility), Armitage, Bruce and Mc Cartin as the core to take us forward.
Hickey: can't get a game.
Carlisle: Agree. He's a gun but is crucified by a limp and non-competitive midfield.
Steven: Agree. Being tagged now and struggling with it. But with some help will be a fantastic B+ player going forward.
Ross: Solid B grader.
Acres: Jury is still out. Wishful thinking at this stage that he'll be any good to be honest.
Billings: Very, very wishful thinking.
Newnes: C grader
Roberton: B grader
Gilbert: B grader. C on a bad day.
Armo: B grader
Bruce: B grader
McCartin: Agree.


And this is the issue isn't it? Our 'core' are a bunch of battlers. That core can't be a top 4 team. No hope in Hades.

To the top wrote:We would have hopes for Gresham, Dunstan, Steele, Freeman, Goddard, White and Mc Kenzie.
Dunstan is done. Unless he suddenly gets fast and learns how to find the ball - I reckon he's done. Unfortunately. I mean seriously, our midfield is rubbish - and he can't get a game in it.
Gresham: Agree.
Steele: Agree.
Freeman: Agree - but clearly wishful thinking at this stage.
Goddard: Agree. But see above.
McKenzie: Nope.
White: Who?


So you've basically listed about 4-5 guys who are decent, and the rest are either average or below average. Some haven't even played!

I think you're clutching big time.
Best post I've seen in a long time.

We have around 8-10 players who would be in the bottom two in a premiership team.

Billings and Gresham are better than that, but they're kids and will suffer in a poorer than average team

No mention of Stevens, which says it all really


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677112Post saintbob »

WellardSaint wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
To the top wrote:The fact is that we still have holes that can be exploited by opposition sides in a very even competition.

The positive is that we can look to Hickey, Carlisle, Steven, Ross, Acres, Billings, Newnes, Roberton, Gilbert (and I include him because he has another couple of seasons in him and his versatility), Armitage, Bruce and Mc Cartin as the core to take us forward.

So, that is 12.

We would have hopes for Gresham, Dunstan, Steele, Freeman, Goddard, White and Mc Kenzie.

So that is another 7.

We have 2 First Round Draft Picks, plus any we can target given our Salary Cap space.

We look to build an elite 25 - then your support players from there.

There is, of course, the logistics giving structure and that will drive who we target

The fact that we have just too many ordinary players in the 22 we are putting on the field currently is putting undue pressure on those who do have a future - hence the results.
With all due respect, this post is delusional at worst. Glass half-full at best.
To the top wrote: The positive is that we can look to Hickey, Carlisle, Steven, Ross, Acres, Billings, Newnes, Roberton, Gilbert (and I include him because he has another couple of seasons in him and his versatility), Armitage, Bruce and Mc Cartin as the core to take us forward.
Hickey: can't get a game.
Carlisle: Agree. He's a gun but is crucified by a limp and non-competitive midfield.
Steven: Agree. Being tagged now and struggling with it. But with some help will be a fantastic B+ player going forward.
Ross: Solid B grader.
Acres: Jury is still out. Wishful thinking at this stage that he'll be any good to be honest.
Billings: Very, very wishful thinking.
Newnes: C grader
Roberton: B grader
Gilbert: B grader. C on a bad day.
Armo: B grader
Bruce: B grader
McCartin: Agree.


And this is the issue isn't it? Our 'core' are a bunch of battlers. That core can't be a top 4 team. No hope in Hades.

To the top wrote:We would have hopes for Gresham, Dunstan, Steele, Freeman, Goddard, White and Mc Kenzie.
Dunstan is done. Unless he suddenly gets fast and learns how to find the ball - I reckon he's done. Unfortunately. I mean seriously, our midfield is rubbish - and he can't get a game in it.
Gresham: Agree.
Steele: Agree.
Freeman: Agree - but clearly wishful thinking at this stage.
Goddard: Agree. But see above.
McKenzie: Nope.
White: Who?


So you've basically listed about 4-5 guys who are decent, and the rest are either average or below average. Some haven't even played!

I think you're clutching big time.

I don't have copyright on "wishful thinking"
but it feels warm and fuzzy to be validated
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Webster??


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677117Post Con Gorozidis »

saintbob wrote:

Webster??
Webster is 24.
Hardly an up and comer. Now a core player.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677148Post Johnny Member »

Con Gorozidis wrote:Are we really on track?
Fact 1: We are 12th.
Fact 2: We are a mid tier side in terms of ave list age. We are not a young list.

OLDEST TO YOUNGEST AVERAGE AGE
West Coast 24 years, 330 days
Greater Western Sydney 24y, 219d
Fremantle 24y, 207d
Hawthorn 24y, 184d
Essendon 24y, 102d
Geelong 24y, 18d
St Kilda 23y, 350d
Richmond 23y, 344d
Adelaide 23y, 340d
Western Bulldogs 23y, 322d
Collingwood 23y, 319d
Gold Coast 23y, 305d
Port Adelaide 23y, 286d
Carlton 23y, 299d
Sydney 23y, 265d
Melbourne 23y, 233d
North Melbourne 23y, 218d
Brisbane Lions 22y, 225d

Note: We would be a fraction younger if you remove Dempster and Joey from that list average. A bit younger again if we also remove Roo.
I think the 'average age' stat is totally irrelevant though.

The telling 'age' stat, is the one that gives you the age bracket breakdown (ie. 10% of players are aged between 18-21, 60% between 22-26 and 30% are 27+).


IMO, it really comes down to what roles the various age brackets are playing.

If you have juniors playing key roles, you're going to struggle generally.
If you have old guys playing key roles, you're masking a problem.
If you have 'prime' aged players in key roles with the others playing cameos - you're in the sweet spot.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677150Post Johnny Member »

BackFromUSA wrote:Average list age isn't what I look at. Age in team / role they play / experience doing so. The core group and their age. We have a missing generation and our sub 100 game group is huge in the context of the game day team and roles they play. +20 to 40 games and we have the necessary core to compete for top 4.
Agree.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677153Post To the top »

The requirement to delist and go to the Draft each year makes the age of the List a nonsense

Simply, you are required to have a number of under 20 years of age players on your List regardless of if they are playing AFL football or not

So look at the sides teams are putting on the park - and the age and experience of those 22

The age and experience supporting the introduction of youth

We do not have an experienced core, particularly in the absence of Roo and Armitage

In listing the players I did, I view that Newnes is "blue collar" and is the level of "blue collar" we must achieve - and as we can not be dominated by this demographic Webster is not included

So we move from Geary to Newnes

See the improvement?

As I have said before, we rely firstly on our recent First Round picks from Billings, Dunstan and Acres then no lower than Secind Round picks from there - plus those we actively seek, so Freeman and Carlisle

That is where we build from - and the oldest of our Drafted players is just 21 years of age with now just 50 or less games under their belts

Stevens - "blue collar" where Newnes represents

Sorry, but "blue collar" sides do not get there so Newnes is there and Webster and Stevens are not

We have another 2 First Round picks on the horizon plus margin in our Salary Cap

Get the drift now?


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677163Post Johnny Member »

To the top wrote:The requirement to delist and go to the Draft each year makes the age of the List a nonsense

Simply, you are required to have a number of under 20 years of age players on your List regardless of if they are playing AFL football or not

So look at the sides teams are putting on the park - and the age and experience of those 22

The age and experience supporting the introduction of youth

We do not have an experienced core, particularly in the absence of Roo and Armitage

In listing the players I did, I view that Newnes is "blue collar" and is the level of "blue collar" we must achieve - and as we can not be dominated by this demographic Webster is not included

So we move from Geary to Newnes

See the improvement?

As I have said before, we rely firstly on our recent First Round picks from Billings, Dunstan and Acres then no lower than Secind Round picks from there - plus those we actively seek, so Freeman and Carlisle

That is where we build from - and the oldest of our Drafted players is just 21 years of age with now just 50 or less games under their belts

Stevens - "blue collar" where Newnes represents

Sorry, but "blue collar" sides do not get there so Newnes is there and Webster and Stevens are not

We have another 2 First Round picks on the horizon plus margin in our Salary Cap

Get the drift now?

Not really.

Stevens is a far better players than Newnes.



My point is that the guys you list as our core, is below par. So if that's what we're building around, what the hell are we on track for??


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677172Post bigred »

Season blown.

Should have been set up in the first half before the bye but we stuffed that up.

Yet to beat anyone of real note apart from the GWS game.

Pretty good chance we may only win another two games for the year at this rate. And losing all is not out of the question.

This is realism, suck it up and deal with it.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677175Post Impatient Sainter »

Dont think its all doom & gloom but would be very surprised if we played finals this year.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677179Post dragit »

Impatient Sainter wrote:Dont think its all doom & gloom but would be very surprised if we played finals this year.
So I guess then it comes down to your expectations, if you thought we'd be giving the finals a shake this year then you might be pretty disappointed... I didn't have us making the 8 this year but we have still been playing below an acceptable standard these past 4 games. The coaches need to take plenty of responsibility for this.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677195Post Con Gorozidis »

To the top wrote:The requirement to delist and go to the Draft each year makes the age of the List a nonsense

Simply, you are required to have a number of under 20 years of age players on your List regardless of if they are playing AFL football or not

So look at the sides teams are putting on the park - and the age and experience of those 22

The age and experience supporting the introduction of youth

We do not have an experienced core, particularly in the absence of Roo and Armitage

In listing the players I did, I view that Newnes is "blue collar" and is the level of "blue collar" we must achieve - and as we can not be dominated by this demographic Webster is not included

So we move from Geary to Newnes

See the improvement?

As I have said before, we rely firstly on our recent First Round picks from Billings, Dunstan and Acres then no lower than Secind Round picks from there - plus those we actively seek, so Freeman and Carlisle

That is where we build from - and the oldest of our Drafted players is just 21 years of age with now just 50 or less games under their belts

Stevens - "blue collar" where Newnes represents

Sorry, but "blue collar" sides do not get there so Newnes is there and Webster and Stevens are not

We have another 2 First Round picks on the horizon plus margin in our Salary Cap

Get the drift now?
Nice rationalising.

But even if we adopt your position - the reality is we only have one guy under 21 getting a regular game (Gresham) and he is struggling with our poor game plan leaving him outnumbered most times. By contrast Carlton have 6 teenagers who play most weeks.

Most of the guys we call 'kids' are now 21, 22 years old. The same age Macrae, Hunter, Stringer, Boyd, Bont, Mclean and Daniel were playing in a Premiership for the Dogs. Zaine Cordy and Josh Dunkley were even younger. That is 9 premiership players.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Mon 12 Jun 2017 9:50pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677275Post Numpty »

BackFromUSA wrote:But fast forward 2 to 3 years and look at the core that will be 22-27 years of age as other lists get too old or too young

That is our window. 2018 should see us in finals. 2019 top 4.

The window is really 2019-2024.

Longer if we keep pumping talented youth through the side.
But we'll be waiting much much longer if we keep pumping untalented youth through the side. Believe me. #howmuchlonger?


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Re: On track

Post: # 1677285Post Con Gorozidis »

Johnny Member wrote:
BackFromUSA wrote:Average list age isn't what I look at. Age in team / role they play / experience doing so. The core group and their age. We have a missing generation and our sub 100 game group is huge in the context of the game day team and roles they play. +20 to 40 games and we have the necessary core to compete for top 4.
Agree.
  • So average age is irrelevant
    The fact we are 12th is irrelevant
    The fact we only have one actual young player in the side (Gresham) is irrelevant
Can I ask then, besides irrational and blind hope in the future, what actually is relevant in your minds?


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