The Coach or the List?

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Linton Lodger
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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674334Post Linton Lodger »

Darth Vader wrote:Personally, I think the "flat hands" theory is a load of bollocks. Bruce & Paddy are just down on confidence/form and are dropping their marks.
With Paddy its a confidence/form issue, he has great hands. With Brucey I think its technique and something that has occurred only recently. I have seen him go for marks with flat hands facing forward and he could also be hitting the footy with hard hands.

I've got a feeling that Bruce's spell in the VFL isn't about kicking goals, rather clunking some marks.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674336Post spert »

Apparently coaches are there for a reason, and some of their functions usually include: planning and implementing game systems , skills work both team and individual, motivation etc etc. If there are weaknesses, the coach is expected to work on this, not go on TV saying "jeez we buthchered the ball"


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674338Post Linton Lodger »

spert wrote:Apparently coaches are there for a reason, and some of their functions usually include: planning and implementing game systems , skills work both team and individual, motivation etc etc. If there are weaknesses, the coach is expected to work on this, not go on TV saying "jeez we buthchered the ball"
Why wouldn't he say that considering that's precisley what happened and why we lost? I watched his Presser and he was spot on about what went wrong. Or do you expect him to waffle on about The X Files like Bevo?


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674339Post carn_sainter »

This is a good thread so far.

To answer the initial questions, we need two thought experiments.

1) Could Richo have taken any other team in 2016 or any team so far in 2017 to a higher position on the ladder than that team's coach did or is doing?

2) Could any other coach have taken the Saints in 2016 or so far in 2017 higher than Richo did or is doing?

Let's put him against the highest standard, Luke Beveridge.

1) Could Richo have won a flag with the dogs last year?

This gets very hard to answer for me. I'll confess that I basically watch only saints games, but I'll pose the question all the same.

2) Could Luke Beveridge have gotten the saints to a flag in 2016?

Possibly. Though again, as above, I'm not really well versed on the other teams in the comp.



Thinking of the dogs does raise an interesting question: do we have heart? Good old fashioned ticker?

The current set-up for the finals series with the extra week off levels the playing field out quite a bit. There are still home ground advantages to consider but it seems far more winnable from 5-8 than before. More than ever, if you're in the 8, you're every chance.

So how do people feel about whether or not - not talking game plan anymore - this team, the players - individually and as a unit - have ticker?

Going on the evidence of 2017, it's really inconclusive We've played really tough, hard, mentally strong footy for long patches and also fallen away abysmally, sharply and steeply over short periods. The last two weeks you could say we really haven't fought back too hard once we got three goals down.

With the finals being so even now, the comp being so even, the immediate elimination nature of finals (for us), do we have the ticker to get over the line?

From this angle, I feel like Richo certainly gets the players buy-in. But do the players have what it takes to enact that buy-in no matter what?

The most disappointing thing about the two recent losses is the lack of resistance and on-field leadership to change something. When we're up, we're all up. When we're down, we have very few who can slow, stop and reverse the opposition's momentum and in so doing, inspire their teammates.

Seb Ross can do it.

Black Acres has shown he has the tools.

Dylan Roberton has had some team lifting moments.

Riewoldt is a force of nature.

Carlisle looks like he doesn't take no mess.

Jack Steven is on too tight a lead lately and can't get off it.

However, I feel that everyone else is only up if everyone is up. More or less. We have players capable of brilliance but few capable of turning a game.


So, overall, we're hard to get a read on. I've always thought that the ceiling for how good a coach can be is the quality of players he has and the list we have now is not rock solid. We can be on and we can be off in all areas. So while the list determines the coach's ceiling, the other question is, how far are Richo's fingers from touching it?

I have no idea.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674341Post Johnny Member »

carn_sainter wrote:
So, overall, we're hard to get a read on.
Agree!

Watching us, it's confusing as to exactly what we're trying to do.

Statistical analysis only confuses things further!


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674356Post spert »

Linton Lodger wrote:
spert wrote:Apparently coaches are there for a reason, and some of their functions usually include: planning and implementing game systems , skills work both team and individual, motivation etc etc. If there are weaknesses, the coach is expected to work on this, not go on TV saying "jeez we buthchered the ball"
Why wouldn't he say that considering that's precisley what happened and why we lost? I watched his Presser and he was spot on about what went wrong. Or do you expect him to waffle on about The X Files like Bevo?
How many years now has he kept coming up with the "jeez the outside runners killed us" excuse at his pressers. Talks a lot about what goes wrong, but does't address it and I'm not sure how many year's grace we give this guy. Nothing personal, nice bloke but far from impressive for me as a coach. I think he got he gig as he talked the talk and wouldn't rock the boat. Needs to do better. I just see another wasted season in the making.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674358Post borderbarry »

To improve our list, this coming trade/draft period, we need to get another tall forward, and a small forward, a couple of mids, and another tall defender who can run. All of the mids and small forward all need to be pacey.
It might be best to trade for the mids, I would draft all of the others.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674361Post tony74 »

No, we just need the mids. We pretty well have the rest.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674363Post remboy »

tony74 wrote:No, we just need the mids. We pretty well have the rest.
I agree. A couple of quick, skilful mids would make a huge difference. At the moment, if Jack Steven is kept quiet we lose all of drive through the middle.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674366Post BigMart »

Foot skills


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674382Post Leo.J »

remboy wrote:
tony74 wrote:No, we just need the mids. We pretty well have the rest.
I agree. A couple of quick, skilful mids would make a huge difference. At the moment, if Jack Steven is kept quiet we lose all of drive through the middle.
A couple of skilled good decision makers at half back and through the midfield would be handy.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674388Post Linton Lodger »

spert wrote:
Linton Lodger wrote:
spert wrote:Apparently coaches are there for a reason, and some of their functions usually include: planning and implementing game systems , skills work both team and individual, motivation etc etc. If there are weaknesses, the coach is expected to work on this, not go on TV saying "jeez we buthchered the ball"
Why wouldn't he say that considering that's precisley what happened and why we lost? I watched his Presser and he was spot on about what went wrong. Or do you expect him to waffle on about The X Files like Bevo?
How many years now has he kept coming up with the "jeez the outside runners killed us" excuse at his pressers. Talks a lot about what goes wrong, but does't address it and I'm not sure how many year's grace we give this guy. Nothing personal, nice bloke but far from impressive for me as a coach. I think he got he gig as he talked the talk and wouldn't rock the boat. Needs to do better. I just see another wasted season in the making.
You're saying he rolls that line out every week, that's not an accurate statement.

In the last two weeks he's talked about execution, which was the cause of both losses. Earlier in the season and particularly after the Geel game, he pointed to a lack of dare. Again spot on. I think the only time he's mentioned "they got us on the outside" this season was after the Melbourne game and surprise, surprise that's what actually happened.

What would you expect him to say half an hour after the game prior to any real analysis?

If you want him to be emotive or dump on his players, it ain't happening, he's too good a leader and too intelligent for that.

Some posters are really reaching for someone to blame and that's what this thread is, looking for someone to blame and vent at.

This over two consecutive losses in the most topsy turvey season I've seen in the forty odd years I've followed the game.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674389Post SemperFidelis »

spert wrote:
Linton Lodger wrote:
spert wrote:Apparently coaches are there for a reason, and some of their functions usually include: planning and implementing game systems , skills work both team and individual, motivation etc etc. If there are weaknesses, the coach is expected to work on this, not go on TV saying "jeez we buthchered the ball"
Why wouldn't he say that considering that's precisley what happened and why we lost? I watched his Presser and he was spot on about what went wrong. Or do you expect him to waffle on about The X Files like Bevo?
How many years now has he kept coming up with the "jeez the outside runners killed us" excuse at his pressers. Talks a lot about what goes wrong, but does't address it and I'm not sure how many year's grace we give this guy.
Our completely public plan is to buy in outside mids.

Every paid pundit in town says "buy in some A Grade outside mids".

99% of posters on this site says "let's sell the farm to get some decent outside mids".

What he says is not only right, it's smart. His bigger problem will be if he gets them and we can't get it together. Then I think we can all start the clock on the grace period.

But I'm sincerely hoping he's actually pretty good at this gig ...


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674392Post Kick-it-lace-out »

tony74 wrote:O.k. Let's get real here. We were poor on Saturday and the previous Saturday. Adelaide was poor against North and Melbourne in fact. Sydney was poor in the first few rounds. Hawthorn were poor against us and the GC. You know if anyone thought we were certainties for the Grand Final before the season started you had rocks in your head. We still have a fair way to go but as the Dogs showed last year it can all fall into place very quickly ( and fall apart very quickly ) We have a plan B and C to be exact but we didn't execute it. Simple- We were poor.
The coach and the list aren't going anywhere. A few stumbles on the way will happen. Stick fat people. Believe it or not I don't think we're far off.

Hi Tony74,
The only thing I would question Richo on is his selection integrity. In my opinion there have been some very questionable selections (and omissions) so far this season which have raised my eyebrows. For example, the promotion of Ben Long after a few ok games in the VFL, and the dropping of Nathan Wright. Also, Mav Weller has retained his spot despite some very average form. The dropping of Nathan Wright in particular is a curious one as in my opinion, his manic pressure and speed in the forward line has been immense yet he was dropped for no apparent reason and replaced by others who offered less in terms of forward half pressure.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674404Post Jacks Back »

Kick-it-lace-out wrote:
tony74 wrote:O.k. Let's get real here. We were poor on Saturday and the previous Saturday. Adelaide was poor against North and Melbourne in fact. Sydney was poor in the first few rounds. Hawthorn were poor against us and the GC. You know if anyone thought we were certainties for the Grand Final before the season started you had rocks in your head. We still have a fair way to go but as the Dogs showed last year it can all fall into place very quickly ( and fall apart very quickly ) We have a plan B and C to be exact but we didn't execute it. Simple- We were poor.
The coach and the list aren't going anywhere. A few stumbles on the way will happen. Stick fat people. Believe it or not I don't think we're far off.

Hi Tony74,
The only thing I would question Richo on is his selection integrity. In my opinion there have been some very questionable selections (and omissions) so far this season which have raised my eyebrows. For example, the promotion of Ben Long after a few ok games in the VFL, and the dropping of Nathan Wright. Also, Mav Weller has retained his spot despite some very average form. The dropping of Nathan Wright in particular is a curious one as in my opinion, his manic pressure and speed in the forward line has been immense yet he was dropped for no apparent reason and replaced by others who offered less in terms of forward half pressure.
Also going into the dogs game with only the 1 tall(ish) forward (and a 20 gamer at that) was a ridiculous decision.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674406Post Zed »

BigMart wrote:Foot skills
Would fix 80% of our current issues


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674419Post WellardSaint »

The team being very badly off, such as against Cats last qtr,
against Dees, Sydney, and last week-
is like a virus. Every player is stale and there is no one or two players
that can step up and really hold his head high.
Although, 35 disposals to Newnes last week- but he did not even figure in
the coaches' votes. But the saints FB page has him as Sainter of the Day.

I personally didn't notice him. Is it because I was sad at the performance?
Did his kicks and handballs have no impact?
I have no idea.

I don't want to make a call on either coach or list until the end of the year.
I do acknowledge that Steele has been an amazing pickup, averaging nearly 8 tackles per game, and 16 disposals.
He's played about 25 games, so wait till he gets to the 50-60 game mark for a quantum leap in impact.
Brown and Carlisle fill a hole in defence, they were inspired choices.
Webster has developed nicely.
Now, the forwards. Skunk and Bwoose are victims of a strange and confusing attacking strategy, possibly,
but Bwoose being very poor in the VFL suggests something far more serious.
Paddy is still learning.

The team needs to reset after the bye and become better.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674420Post Impatient Sainter »

Zed wrote:
BigMart wrote:Foot skills
Would fix 80% of our current issues
Having your midfield set ups as such that your not handballing to a player under pressure would help. Every team knows if you pressure our mids we go backwards twice by handball towards the boundary and then attempt to hit a target down the line. Teams just press across and cut off the kick coming down, its not rocket science. If we used longer handball to hit targets inside or here is a novel idea even move forward then perhaps they wouldnt be kicking under such pressure.

Something that I noticed the Bulldogs were exceptional at was baulking and stepping the player coming to pressure them. They were able to do that because they had forward momentum. Our first TRAINED move is to ALWAYS handball backwards regardless whether the player is stationary or under more pressure. A lot of times this just kills our momentum, hence we go sideways or backwards. The first handball backwards IMO stymies our movements foward. Other teams take the tackler on and get the ball going forward even if they are tackled - we seem to avoid that by the backward / sideways handball.
Last edited by Impatient Sainter on Tue 30 May 2017 12:59am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674421Post magnifisaint »

dals_da_bomb wrote:I already shudder at what it would look like if or when he is sacked.
If that happens before his contract is up I will stop following football.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674436Post Leo.J »

WellardSaint wrote:...Although, 35 disposals to Newnes last week- but he did not even figure in
the coaches' votes. But the saints FB page has him as Sainter of the Day.

I personally didn't notice him. Is it because I was sad at the performance?
Did his kicks and handballs have no impact?
I have no idea...
Imo Newnes regularly makes poor decisions with his forward 50 entries.

That could be why he wasn't mentioned in the coaches votes because his 35 were largely ineffective in the overall out come.

Skill is one thing, decision making is another. We can only bring in players who have both, as we already have too few players who are capable of both under pressure.

That's why Hawthorn we're so successful they had 4-5 highly skilled good decision makers, in their midfield and across halfback.

It's no surprise as to why they've gone down hill so quick. They traded 2 of them and Hodge is past it now.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674573Post saintsRrising »

Re the list.

If we could inject two elite mids that were good ball users you would see the whole team lift c and the team really start to hum.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674576Post Johnny Member »

saintsRrising wrote:Re the list.

If we could inject two elite mids that were good ball users you would see the whole team lift c and the team really start to hum.
We, like all teams, need the following IMO:

- Elite ball use
- Line breaking speed
- Possession accumulators
- Elite decision making

All good teams have these skill sets either in the midfield, or in the backline. Some have both - but generally it's one or the other.

If we do recruit midfielders, so be it. As long as they're ticking one or more of the above boxes. But I'd be equally happy if we were to target a Johannison type player who ticks at least one of the boxes above.

The line breaking 'running back' is a position which I think we've neglected. Roberton's form has shown us how critical that role is, and unfortunately now that he's being targeted/tagged by the opposition, we've been impotent in that space.

Bringing in Savage proved to me that we don't take it seriously enough. He's not good enough at at. I'd rather a young guy get smacked in that role whilst he's learning, than see Savage get smacked in it.


We don't generate run from anywhere really, unless Roberton brings it out of defence. Since the GWS game, since everyone saw how important he is to setting up our offence, he's been negated to a large degree. As a result, it's no coincidence that we can't score. Webster being out hasn't helped - but I still think Saints fans incredibly overrate him and in particular his kicking.


I heard Sam McClure disputing the rumour that Essendon are targeting Martin. He said that they have their eye on a few others ahead of him. When pressed on who they were, he said "Pittard from Port, and Johannison - because they know they need speed and run from defence".

This is also why Buckley played Pendlebury in defence. Because of his elite ball use and decision making. Same as why HArdwick played Martin back there. Same as why Rhys Shaw was paid a shitload of money by GWS, and also why Geelong were so desperate to get Tuohy when Enright retired. It's such a critical role.

You can get away with a slow midfield, if you generate your offence from defence. Your midfield can become more of a link up role, which doesn't require elite speed. But if you don't have that speed and coming out of defence, then you have to generate from the midfield.

We don't do either, which is what kills us.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674586Post spert »

Looks pretty obvious to me that the players have a form of the golfing "yips". Once they have the ball, their natural football instincts would be to dispose of it to a teammate in a better position who is in the clear, or made a lead whatever, but I reckon the players have been drilled to follow a game plan regardless..e.g handlball quickly, move it quickly- bang it on your boot and get it forward at all costs, catch the opposition out..or something like that. Clearly the players are choking disposals as they are in two minds about what to do or where to go with the ball and we end up with what is happening now- one handball too many to a covered player, a quick bomb kick to a pack instead of a clean kick to one or two teammates in the clear.

I think the forwards are really struggling to read what's going on up the field, as there is too much chipping around, sloppy kicks under pressure and no obvious setups where a forward read the play and can set himself for a lead, or get in the right position for a mark

A coach needs to get the balance right with some players, and not squash their natural game in order to strictly follow a game plan to the nth degree- some players just wont have a strong defensive side, but are great offensively, and so on.


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674593Post Linton Lodger »

spert wrote:Looks pretty obvious to me that the players have a form of the golfing "yips". Once they have the ball, their natural football instincts would be to dispose of it to a teammate in a better position who is in the clear, or made a lead whatever, but I reckon the players have been drilled to follow a game plan regardless..e.g handlball quickly, move it quickly- bang it on your boot and get it forward at all costs, catch the opposition out..or something like that. Clearly the players are choking disposals as they are in two minds about what to do or where to go with the ball and we end up with what is happening now- one handball too many to a covered player, a quick bomb kick to a pack instead of a clean kick to one or two teammates in the clear.

I think the forwards are really struggling to read what's going on up the field, as there is too much chipping around, sloppy kicks under pressure and no obvious setups where a forward read the play and can set himself for a lead, or get in the right position for a mark

A coach needs to get the balance right with some players, and not squash their natural game in order to strictly follow a game plan to the nth degree- some players just wont have a strong defensive side, but are great offensively, and so on.
Pretty good assessment, although I'd have to disagree in regard to the 'defensive side'. In today's footy all players need a strong defensive side. They may get away with not having one most of the time, but they will be found out and exploited in high pressure games, particularly Preliminary Finals & Grand Finals. Its not a matter of skill or ability, its a matter of fitness, work rate, desire and mental toughness.

What we are seeing is a young list where some at times, still get scared of stuffing up. Extremely common with younger & inexperienced lists. I've heard Bomber Thompson talk about how his Geelong list took years to lose their fear of stuffing up despite reassurances. He says they finally did so in 2007.

Our gameplan is actually beautifully simple and doesn't require precise long kicking to forwards, just a kick to their advantage. Whilst it needs players to back themselves, importantly and probably more so, it also requires them to back their team mates. That's probably the hard part.

Sure we need to add to the midfield, that hasn't been a secret. However, I tell you what, when this list overcomes that fear of stuffing up, watch out!


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Re: The Coach or the List?

Post: # 1674613Post Con Gorozidis »

If we dont improve then at some point in the next 18 months we are going to need to address this:

AFL Coaches Records & Statistics
Coach Games Wins Losses Draws Win %
1 Don Pyke 34 25 9 0 73.5%
2 Chris Scott 152 109 42 1 71.7%
3 Luke Beveridge 59 39 20 0 66.1%
4 John Longmire 159 105 52 2 66.0%
5 Adam Simpson 80 51 28 1 63.7%
6 Alastair Clarkson 293 184 108 1 62.8%
7 Ross Lyon 250 153 92 5 61.2%
8 Ken Hinkley 102 56 46 0 54.9%
9 Leon Cameron 78 42 36 0 53.8%
10 Brad Scott 167 89 78 0 53.3%
11 Nathan Buckley 124 65 59 0 52.4%
12 John Worsfold 313 157 154 2 50.2%
13 Rodney Eade 370 184 181 5 49.7%
14 Damien Hardwick 167 80 85 2 47.9%
15 Simon Goodwin 11 5 6 0 45.5%
16 Brendon Bolton 37 15 22 0 40.5%
17 Alan Richardson 76 27 48 1 35.5%
18 Chris Fagan 10 1 9 0 10.0%


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