Trolling

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saintspremiers
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Trolling

Post: # 1674081Post saintspremiers »

What does the forum think about this?

Should it be allowed on the forum?

There are currently a couple of posters who, when the chips are down, revell in their trade on our forum.

The mods are in control, and regardless of what the rules say, can do what they like. They run the show. They can ban any of us at any time.

Some people just say "let them go, it's a bit of fun", whilst others just want them gone.

Discuss. And please don't name names - that's a big no-no and dan result in board warnings - as a few of us have found out.


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674084Post BigMart »

Is trolling having a critical opinion after a few woeful performances?

I would think it's fair enough??


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674088Post CURLY »

BigMart wrote:Is trolling having a critical opinion after a few woeful performances?

I would think it's fair enough??
We all know what trolling is and those that do should get banned. Calling players fat or suggesting they don't try or getting 3rd rounders for promising young players.


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674090Post WellardSaint »

Lifted from the "Forum Rules"

Do not start threads or make posts requesting the discipline of other members,
nor PM the Moderators requesting discipline or punishment. Use the REPORT FUNCTION (!) instead.


It answers the question perfectly;
and the OP is in breach of this rule, by starting such a thread.

Also from the "Forum Rules"
“Trolls” are defined as posters who have the only goal to create friction and anger in our community.
This requires a subjective judgement.
I suggest that some of posters are simply engaged in robust and strong discussion, and have not resorted to insults nor abuse.
These members are exercising their right to free speech, and appear to be supporting their statements with logic and valid reasons.
The fact that their views may run contrary to others, in no way diminishes their right to express such an opinion.

A famous novelist/wordsmith once wrote : "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Variously attributed to Oscar Wilde, Evelyn Beatrice Hall, and Voltaire, amongst others.

We don't really want to go down the path of Auguste Pinochet of Chile, or Kim Jong-Un (CEO of the AFL)


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674103Post Linton Lodger »

BigMart wrote:Is trolling having a critical opinion after a few woeful performances?

I would think it's fair enough??
I don't think you've ever been accused of trolling BM.


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674106Post whiskers3614 »

Linton Lodger wrote:
BigMart wrote:Is trolling having a critical opinion after a few woeful performances?

I would think it's fair enough??
I don't think you've ever been accused of trolling BM.
Yes, but when it comes to TOSSING...
:oops: :oops:


citywest

Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674108Post citywest »

saintspremiers, what is the point of starting a post like this? Have you been feeling left out lately and this is your way of saying "look at me".


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674110Post White Winmar »

You're obviously not a troll, BM. I've been critical, as most on here have been at one time or another. I have received a warning for jousting with one poster in particular, who I believe is not a saints supporter and a long time troll. Having an opinion, no matter how much one might disagree is not trolling. It's when posters simply abuse players, the club and the coach that your suspicions are raised. There's also someone coming on here after we lose and sticking the knives in with sarcasm and ridiculous criticisms. In another current thread, a poster simply indulges in abuse and mocks the coach about the way he speaks. I draw the line there.

The mods do a thankless task very well IMHO. It wasn't too long ago that the site was mired in petty arguments and keyboard trench warfare. They cleaned it up and I think it's going as well as I can remember. I think this thread is a timely reminder that some people just love their Schadenfreude a bit too much. Let them hoist themselves with their own petards.


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674126Post dragit »

citywest wrote:saintspremiers, what is the point of starting a post like this? Have you been feeling left out lately and this is your way of saying "look at me".
It's a pretty valid and poignant thread from SP… This place is absolutely riddles with trolls and fact that you are allowed to continue to post here really is mind-boggling.

If we applied the popularity poll test to you, you wouldn't stand a chance… I'm tipping a 95% landslide.

Even if you have managed to convince the head mod here that you "barrack for st kilda" basically every post you make is a subtle dig or veiled baiting… with no other objective than to cause angst or upset people.

Every regular poster on here would be well aware of this and I think everyone is sick and tired of it, not sure why Simon let's this annoying charade continue…

While we are at it - ChrisRyanSaints, Sainters85 & PremiershipSaint honestly fooling no-one… just get rid of them, click on their posting history and it's just a putrid tirade against what we all love. Sorry to all the other trolls I left out… there are plenty.

BigMart you troll just like most posters do at times… but at least you are an actual saint & that is where the line is…


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674128Post st.byron »

By all means have a discussion about trolling.

But SaintsPremiers, if you have issues with specific posters then as previously suggested to you, that's what the reporting mechanism is for.

Please report posts you consider to be in breach of the trolling rule and mods will assess.

Regarding dealing with trolling - what is trolling and what simply a frustrated and negative Saints fan is not always immediately apparent.

Genuine Saints fans with negative opinions are perfectly entitled to post their opinions, provided they do so within the rules. People who come on here, Saints fan or not, purely with the intention to inflame, take the piss and cause trouble are not welcome.
Sometimes, it takes time to establish someone's intentions.

The mods have to walk the line between taking appropriate action against trolling and not banning people when they're actually frustrated, negative Saints fans and not trolls.

SP, as another of the mods recently suggested to you, please follow forum procedures and report posts you want assessed. Starting generic threads about particular posters without reference to specifc posts is not the way to go.


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674135Post BackFromUSA »

WellardSaint wrote:Lifted from the "Forum Rules"

Do not start threads or make posts requesting the discipline of other members,
nor PM the Moderators requesting discipline or punishment. Use the REPORT FUNCTION (!) instead.


It answers the question perfectly;
and the OP is in breach of this rule, by starting such a thread.

Also from the "Forum Rules"
“Trolls” are defined as posters who have the only goal to create friction and anger in our community.
This requires a subjective judgement.
I suggest that some of posters are simply engaged in robust and strong discussion, and have not resorted to insults nor abuse.
These members are exercising their right to free speech, and appear to be supporting their statements with logic and valid reasons.
The fact that their views may run contrary to others, in no way diminishes their right to express such an opinion.

A famous novelist/wordsmith once wrote : "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Variously attributed to Oscar Wilde, Evelyn Beatrice Hall, and Voltaire, amongst others.

We don't really want to go down the path of Auguste Pinochet of Chile, or Kim Jong-Un (CEO of the AFL)
Unlike what is stated in the opening post - the mods and admin cannot just warn / ban as we please.

There are rules and we assess REPORTS based on the letter of those rules WITHOUT taking into account who posted them UNLESS it is an assessment under spamming, trolling or ongoing disputes.

The quoted post is 100% on the money in regards to the admin attitude to freedom of speech. Having a negative opinion is not trolling. You are all welcome to disagree and argue accordingly without it targeting the poster.

The rules have been the same for 3 years and the mods are mostly satisfied with them BUT we have recently been discussing making some small alterations to give us more tools to tame what could be labelled semi-trolling, where the post is obviously going to inflame the community YET it is phrased in such a way that it also passes as valid opinion. We can see that this has been on the increase ... but that is for another day. We have gone down the path of PMing the semi-trollers and this does not seem to have an impact. Some rule changes may be needed.

As for the OP being a rule breach ... nobody has reported it so I shall and the mods will consider what action to take given SP has already received PMs explaining this rule and a warning previously. I am also locking the thread.


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Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674140Post SaintPav »

Mods locking threads on trolling is censorship.

What a power trip.

Posters are entitled to their opinion.

Censor the truth sayers but let the trolls keep posting.

What a disgrace.


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674143Post saintspremiers »

Agree completely.

One minute Byron says it's ok to start a topic to discuss trolling which I did, then locks it. I didn't mention names,
I encouraged others not to in fact in the OP.

I have reported posts but am fed up with imaction. ChrisRyan is done for a month, but no doubt will return. Al the others that I think dragit alluded to remain.


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674145Post dragit »

Bingo Pav,

It's not a negative saint fan or good discussion…

We are talking about a poster who's prime objective nearly every single time they post is…

“Trolls” are defined as posters who have the only goal to create friction and anger in our community.

People are clearly angry and fed up…

Let the thread run.


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674148Post WellardSaint »

Guys, use the reporting function if somebody steps over the line.
I think that function is there to avoid threads being bogged down
in to-and-fro arguments.

Let the mods do what they do, and issue bans etc.
The system is working well, it doesn't need complications.
And the mods can't police every single post, everyone has a family and work etc.


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674151Post WellardSaint »

SaintPav wrote:Mods locking threads on trolling is censorship.

What a power trip.

Posters are entitled to their opinion.

Censor the truth sayers but let the trolls keep posting.

What a disgrace.
It's not a power trip,
He didn't say he would protect everyone's right to have an opinion;
I think you're reading between the lines.
Admin appeared to say that if an opinion descends to a personal attack, then certainly report the post;
one poster has now received a ban, as can be seen.
He was warned and the warnings were ignored.

Admin and mods will protect the site from potential litigation by deleting offending posts and warning, and then banning any posters
who continue to transgress.
I think it's quite simple.

The so-called "truth-sayers" aren't being censored, I think the post was locked to prevent a snowballing effect.
All the forum rules are there in black and white (and Red !).

In closing:
-an abusive poster has now been banned;
-there is now clarification on procedure.
The sun shall rise tomorrow.
:D


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674154Post Sainternist »

Sure, everyone has right to their own opinions, however, if they can't express their views without resorting to being overly aggressive, using vulgar language and carrying like a pork chop, then I'll have zero sympathy for them.


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674159Post thejiggingsaint »

+1!


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674166Post Con Gorozidis »

Interesting issue.
I think mods are allowing full blown dissent and criticism of the club but are policing incidences that are offensive in general.
I think they are probably doing a good job balancing this. As Byron said it is a case of 'damned if we do and damned if we dont'.

We dont want to be Nth Korea where posters have to only say sunny shiny things about the 'club' bureaucracy. I think dissent and criticism is a genuine part of a forum like this and all posts should not simply fall in to line with Mgt spin. But that hardly seems like a concern on here. There is plenty of dissent.

One could mount an argument that those pushing the 100% sunny blue sky view are enabling the club to engage in misrepresentation and misleading conduct by over promising something to members they have little chance of delivering ( a flag). I know its a stretch but it is something to consider.

I have no idea why chris was banned but I think the mods are saying it is for abusive stuff unrelated to footy- not just for dissenting against the club.
I stand corrected if this is incorrect.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Mon 29 May 2017 12:11pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674169Post BackFromUSA »

OK - I locked the SP thread because we as mods needed time to discuss the potential ban of a poster without a snowballing witch hunt.

The Mods already had this poster and what we perceived as trolling under discussion for days and that poster had been asked to self moderate.

Now the decision has been made and the poster banned for a month - more than happy to re-open the thread and discuss how we can alter the rules to prevent posters making highly negative and inappropriate commentary that will merely inflame the community WITHOUT impeding on the ability of posters to express a negative opinion! It is a fine balance.


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674170Post BackFromUSA »

i have also merged the two topics rather than have 2 sets of discussion - and it all flows best merged


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Re: Locking threads on trolling

Post: # 1674173Post saintspremiers »

BackFromUSA wrote:OK - I locked the SP thread because we as mods needed time to discuss the potential ban of a poster without a snowballing witch hunt.

The Mods already had this poster and what we perceived as trolling under discussion for days and that poster had been asked to self moderate.

Now the decision has been made and the poster banned for a month - more than happy to re-open the thread and discuss how we can alter the rules to prevent posters making highly negative and inappropriate commentary that will merely inflame the community WITHOUT impeding on the ability of posters to express a negative opinion! It is a fine balance.
Cheers. Sounds good to me and a move in the right direction. Look forward to how it pans out from here.


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674174Post dragit »

Good work Simon.


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674236Post dragit »

I think the problem is that an opposition supporter can continue to troll on here long term within the current rules.

It's one thing to troll or bait each other, but there are definitely posters that clearly aren't saints fans and the MO of their posts is purely designed to create friction & angst.

I'm not sure what the solution is but perhaps if the mods can recognise a history of similar posts without actually contributing anything worthwhile then they should be able to use their discretion and take action to rid the site of these posters.


This kind of thing (over & over)


Would we get a 2nd rounder for Paddy?

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GET RID OF MCCARTIN

I'LL SAY IT AGAIN...GET RID OF MCCARTIN.

McCartin is useless......simple as that.

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hopefully with another preseason under his belt, Billings would turn out to be what Kennedy-Harris is..


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Re: Trolling

Post: # 1674240Post st.byron »

dragit wrote: I'm not sure what the solution is but perhaps if the mods can recognise a history of similar posts without actually contributing anything worthwhile then they should be able to use their discretion and take action to rid the site of these posters.
This is certainly what we look for when assessing an issue like this.

In some cases it's blatantly obvious that a poster is an opposition troll and then it's easy to moderate.

But there are others where it's not so clear.

Is that negative opinion a poster has about the Saints an indication that they're a troll? Or are they negative as a reflection of where they are in their life and their worldview is negative? I'm sure we've all sat in front or near a "supporter" who spends their whole time bagging our own players. It's a pain in the butt, but that person may also be a paid up member putting their cash on the line to support the club. Maybe going to the footy and expressing their angst is a release for them.
So does that make them a non-supporter?

Same with people online. Is someone with a generally negative viewpoint necessarily a troll? A non-supporter?
What if that person is a paid up Saints member and has been for years?

What then? Should they be banned because their views and ways of expressing them are not popular?

This is where the rules come in. If they're not popular but conform to the rules, then they have the right to post. If they don't conform to the rules, there are steps that can be taken to pull them into line or if necessary, exclude them from the site.
And in implementing the rules the mods frequently come up against this conundrum. "Is that trolling or is that just a Saints fan with a negative view?"

There are plenty of 'grey' areas when it comes to assesssing a person's true intention in posting and indeed, whether they conform to the rules or not.

In addition, there are personal issues such as mental health, life circumstances and personal history that contribute to a person's posting style and whilst on an anonymous forum it's hard to assess these things, a compassionate, human, inclusive approach doesn't go astray I reckon.


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