Still happy with McEvoy trade

[dragit]

Seb is more skilled than Dunstan and is a far better runner.

I don't remember you banging on about seb two years ago when was the same age as Luke is now… when he had basically the same numbers as Luke this year but kicked only one goal in ten games.

[CURLY]

Sav would not have been part of their 2013 - 15 plans otherwise he wouldn't have bee given away as steak knives in a trade deal, and he wouldn't have agreed to that trade from a premiership favourite to a bottom team if he was an important player in their set up.

Dunstan and Mitchell should not be mentioned in the same sentence. One is a gun, who is leading a b&f by a mile and is on 600k and averages 34 possessions a game
The other is in the VFL and in the afl averages 17
There is a fair gulf between the two...


Selling the farm is interesting too

Pick 14 for Mitchell was a bargain imo

They overpaid for Jaeger

It was a reasonable trade for both parties for what they wanted/needed

Sold Lewis Mitchell and then traded 14 to get him in. Savage if he stayed would have been right in contention for a spot if he hung around. He was obviously chucked in to get the trade the Hawks needed over the line.

[saintsRrising]

I'll complicate it further by saying that if we hadn't traded McEvoy we wouldn't have used pick 25 on Longer. We already had Hickey. We could have used pick 25 on Zach Merrett.
So without the trade we could have: McEvoy, Hartung, Merrett
With the trade: Savage, Dunstan, Acres, Longer

Exactly. People get too hung up on any one player or trade.

The Saints decided to rebuild by churning through large number of players. The list we had was going nowhere!


You also can compare the value of say McEvoy the Saints to the value of him.

The Hawks already had a very good team, and so just wanted to shore up some areas that they were weak in.

Whereas the Saints had a list that needed a major work over. A new player or two would make no difference. We needed MANY. We basically has to build a whole new team in the main.

[BigMart]

Then you have a poor memory Dragit? , two years ago he was in great shape, was training the house down and looked ready to take the next step. Unfortunately he tore his hamstring off the bone in a pre season game and missed 12 weeks.

The years prior he got far less opportunity than Luke D and had to bide his time at Sandy, where he killed it!

Why did he bide his time?
Hayes, Goddard, Dal Santo, Armitage, Steven, Jones were first choice mids all in their mid to late 20s

If you went back, I'd suggest you'd find that I've generally rated Seb as solid to good... didn't see some of his top end coming, but he was always skilled in the contest. Is bigger than Luke, far better engine!!!

[BigMart]

Sam Mitchell opted out of Hawthorn, had nothing to do with the Tom Mitchell trade... but Tom Mitchell was always in their mind as a succession plan.

He's been outstanding this year, and is a gun.

[BigMart]

Do we mark players on number of goals kicked?

Pretty sure Seb returned from a LTI to play half a season 2 years ago

[dragit]

Then you have a poor memory Dragit?

You're right, I had forgotten… but I just caught up & you would have traded him for pick 40.

He'll always be a plodder/Accumulator

Seb Ross... Pick 25 2011 draft 187cm inside mid 20 games
Pick 35-45: Likely club
Essendon
Deal I'd accept would be third round pick pick 40?

[dragit]

Do we mark players on number of goals kicked?

Pretty sure Seb returned from a LTI to play half a season 2 years ago

Yep and he averaged the same numbers as Luke has this year, but didn't kick goals like Luke has this year in 4/5 games.

Yes goals kicked is one of the things we measure players on.

[BigMart]

Well, Rob Harvey was pretty average then... because he only set up plenty?!

[BigMart]

You probably should quote the entire post to put in context?

[dragit]

Well, Rob Harvey was pretty average then... because he only set up plenty?!

Ha! You probably called him a plodder too at some stage.

Are you actually arguing that goals kicked by mids aren't important?

Seb had 2 goal assists in 10 games in 2015 btw.

[dragit]

You probably should quote the entire post to put in context?

Quoting tips from you? Lel.

[BigMart]

Also, in you're 2015 assessment of Seb..Did you take into account the two games he played out of 12 in the sub vest? I'm sure you did yeah, he played a qtr or so in both those games...

And I think Seb Ross is not quick at all, but reads the play well, finds the ball well, uses it by hand very well, foot well... and he has a good engine. He is like BJ, Joey, Kennedy or Jobe or Pendles over the turf... none are quick, but read the game well, and move well with the ball laterally.

[BigMart]

Hmm

Here's one from 2012... why didn't you quote this?

... showed some real positive signs...whether that translates into AFL ability....time will tell But at least they proved they can play the game.... Seb Ross is a definite....I would gladly bet my pay packet that he plays 100+ Markworth has physical attributes Newnes has football ability but like ...

[dragit]

Also, in you're 2015 assessment of Seb..Did you take into account the two games he played out of 12 in the sub vest? I'm sure you did yeah, he played a qtr or so in both those games...

Average time for the year was 72 % including the sub games… still more minutes per game than Dunstan's 69% this year.

You would have looked at overall game time yeah?

[saintsRrising]

Sam Mitchell opted out of Hawthorn, had nothing to do with the Tom Mitchell trade...

.

LOL


Yeh he opted out out of Hawthorn....... just like McEvoy "'opted out"" of St Kilda.


“I wouldn’t do it if it wasn’t helping me, of course. Hawthorn came to me with it. I have helped them out of bit of a bind, but I am also bettering my opportunities at the same time. "" Sam Mitchell.

Now what would that "bit of a bind " have been? Nothing to do with clearing salary space for Tom, JOM and TV? I think it had everything to do with them.

[CURLY]

Sam Mitchell opted out of Hawthorn, had nothing to do with the Tom Mitchell trade... but Tom Mitchell was always in their mind as a succession plan.

He's been outstanding this year, and is a gun.

Sam Mitchell was moved to help with the move of Tom to the Hawks.

[BigMart]

Do we judge mids on how many goals they kick? .... Hayes, Harvey? The two best I ever saw... how many goals?
Nathan Burke, kick a lot of goals? Pretty good player?? Judd - at Carlton? Scott West?? The Great Sam Mitchell??
Matt Priddis... should I go on?

It's nice if they do kick goals, but it's how many they generate (not assist which is a nothing stat) ... certainly not judged on goals kicked.


On Quoting
I think if you're going to do it, put it in context... I think that's a fair
I did not ask you to quote, you searched history, to make a point with a selective post. Things change, so if you're gonna do that, at least do it properly... I think it's an easy thing to do...

Do you know if Seb spent as much time in the middle 2015, do you know what role he was playing, was he off a good preparation, had he shown much prior, had he gone to another level? Lots of questions.

Has Luke Dunstan improved from his first season

[skeptic]

I reckon it still is a huge win for us...

Vastly overrated player McEvoy, wasn't much chop with us and would have a much worse reputation if he was traded to a club like Carlton that was on a loser trajectory instead of having his weaknesses undersold in the all conquering Hawks team

[BigMart]

Solid Player Ben

Suited the Hawks perfectly

Sav has been ok Luke must improve

[skeptic]

Just solid

[Goose is king]

Very happy with this trade. I think the steak knives is finished now though. I'd prefer to see Rice, White and McKenzie come in if required before Savage returns. Dunstan does need to find another level but I'm sure he will.

[Moods]

Sam Mitchell opted out of Hawthorn, had nothing to do with the Tom Mitchell trade... but Tom Mitchell was always in their mind as a succession plan.

He's been outstanding this year, and is a gun.

Let's not get carried away. He's been good. Outstanding? Speak to any real Hawk fans and they will tell you that he's one of the main reasons they are struggling. His accuracy by foot is average at best - he basically wins the hard ball and slams it on his foot. Because he wins the ball so often this happens quite frequently. Whereas Mitchell would use the ball beautifully with either hand or foot, meaning that his teammates could read what was about to happen and position themselves. Lewis was tough as nails and also a beautiful kick. Mitchell is winning the ball, which is the first step for any decent mid, but to be elite he needs to set the game up. Right now, Tom Mitchell is not a patch on the mids that the Hawks had at their disposal when they as a team were elite. Granted he's still their best mid, but all that tells you is where they are at at the moment.

[BigMart]

Tom Mitchell is the reason they are struggling?

I think I could think of ten underachieving guys who have lost the hunger, before I'd consider a guy who has been listed as their best player in 4 out of the 7 games they've played.

He's averaging 34 per game, elite by hand, elite at stoppage and wins morefirst possession than any other player

Not sure Tom Mitchell for pick 14 is their biggest concern?