Game plan. Are we being honest with ourselves?

[stkfc1]

I'll start this by saying I like AR and think he's going to be a good coach but something needs to change. Our game plan relies on manic pressure for four quarters and its bloody obvious we can only sustain it for 3, so whats our plan B?

Our current game plan is trying to hide our players lack of genuine skilled ball users, trying to wallpaper over the cracks, and thats fine against the lower teams but it will never stack up against the top teams who can absorb the pressure and respond in kind,and we'll be continually found wanting until this is addressed.

Ok top end talent will obviously help so a couple of FA and hopefully a decent pick from Hawks this year will be great but the coaches still need to come up with another gameplan that will work with the current players strengths and limitations. I genuinely think the coaches (and most of us) have over estimated our chances of making finals this year. Really we should be using this year as another development year for the likes of Minch, McKenzie, White, Rice, Sinclair and co. As much as I love the oldies Gilbert and Monty they're not going to be part of our next finals campaigns so its time to move on and look at development and its time to look at players like Dunstan, who just aren't up to it yet, and make the hard calls. There's no easy fix and unfortunately in our current climate of 'immediate satisfaction' I think we need to be careful we're not chasing the romance of making finals to the detriment of our long term progress. Thoughts?

[Johnny Member]

I'll start this by saying I like AR and think he's going to be a good coach but something needs to change. Our game plan relies on manic pressure for four quarters and its bloody obvious we can only sustain it for 3, so whats our plan B?

Our current game plan is trying to hide our players lack of genuine skilled ball users, trying to wallpaper over the cracks, and thats fine against the lower teams but it will never stack up against the top teams who can absorb the pressure and respond in kind,and we'll be continually found wanting until this is addressed.

Ok top end talent will obviously help so a couple of FA and hopefully a decent pick from Hawks this year will be great but the coaches still need to come up with another gameplan that will work with the current players strengths and limitations. I genuinely think the coaches (and most of us) have over estimated our chances of making finals this year. Really we should be using this year as another development year for the likes of Minch, McKenzie, White, Rice, Sinclair and co. As much as I love the oldies Gilbert and Monty they're not going to be part of our next finals campaigns so its time to move on and look at development and its time to look at players like Dunstan, who just aren't up to it yet, and make the hard calls. There's no easy fix and unfortunately in our current climate of 'immediate satisfaction' I think we need to be careful we're not chasing the romance of making finals to the detriment of our long term progress. Thoughts?

Agree. However....

We need to be realistic about what a coach, any coach, could achieve with our current list.


And it's not 'romance' that is the driver for trying to play finals. It's the club's very public mission statement to be top 4 by next year. The coach was handed this expectation 2 months after he walked in the door. This is what he's been told he has to achieve.

This is what the members and public were told the club was aiming for.


There are two sides to it. Beveridge walked in to the Dogs and told Gordon that McCartney's '3 year plan' was nonsense, and that he saw no reason why they couldn't be successful right now. He insisted they keep the veterans and very much had them in his plans.

Kind of the exact opposite of what you're suggesting really. He held on to the older guys and played them every week - and aimed to win the flag now. Not in 2 years or 3, but right now.



Our club is somewhere in the middle. Pelchen I understand was the main driver behind the football side of the 'mission statement' (ie. top 4 by 2018 etc. etc.) and I assume this was based on the expectation that we'd have a very good list by now with all the drafting we've done. The club achieved what they felt they needed in terms of the numbers in the draft - but in my opinion just didn't find the talent that they assumed they'd find.

As I've said somewhere before, instead of getting a Bont, a Lynch, a McGovern, a Crouch etc. - we got a Dunstan, a Billings, a Curren, a Templeton, a Saunders etc. etc.

We assumed that with the multitude of top 20 picks we gathered, that we'd find the gems. We didn't.



So the plan is to be top 4 by next year. Set by the club for the coach.

The coach, like Beveridge, clearly sees experience and maturity as critical to achieving the goals set by the club. FWIW, I agree with him.


What I don't agree with is, the 'top 4 by 2018' goal. I think the club needs to reassess and backtrack on it.

It's just not realistic and as you say in the OP, is potentially stifling the longer term development of the team.


I think the club needs to say to the coach, and even us punters, that we're not on track and that we are now expecting to be top 4 in 3 years.

I know that's different to Beveridge's philosophy, but we need to remember that when he walked in, they'd already been building that list for 6 years. We've really only started building formally for 4. We can't realistically expect to be top 4 until our midfield has played over 100 games each, and our recent draftees hit the 50 game mark.


I don't think a change in game plan or a different coach would really make a difference in the scheme of things. We may pinch a couple of extra games and just be plastering over the same cracks anyway.

[ace]

It does not help when you use your number 1 draft pick on a player to fill the AFL's "player with disability quota".

[saintsRrising]

Gameplan was fine in the main, and certainly good enough to win that game IF our players were good enough.


Why we lost amounted to:

1/ Cats have two genuine superstars in Selwood and Danger. Both of whom turned up the afterburners. We just do not have that supertar talent where it matters most which is the midfield.
2/ We still have Roo, but he went of injured when the game turned and Steven, who while very good is no Danger/Selwood
3/ We did not ice the ball as well as the Cats. We kicked better at goal better than we have but not as accurately as the Cats, and we missed some really easy goals. With the opportunities the Saints had we should have been many goals up at three quarter time. Game was still live too when Gresh dropped that sitter. Game changing moent as it turned out as the Cats then rebounded to score....and then again, and again and................
4/ Cats players played smarter:
- In particular a Cats player if he has an opponent when the ball comes to him as a non-mark is a lot more likely to immediately tap it on towards a teammate rather than trying to posses the ball. Saints players often tried to possess the ball instead who then just get tackled by the Cat. ie Tim Membrey in last quarter when he had the ball come to him and despite having a team mate nearby that he could have tapped the ball to he instead took possession and as soon as he did his waiting Cat pounced. Ball to Cats and scoring opportunity lost.


The main change that I would like to see if that our players be instructed to IMMEDIATELY tackle the player with the ball rather than CORRAL him. Way, way too often all that happens is the opponent with the ball is given time to think, time to steady, time to assess their options, time your the opponents teammates to present more options. and time to get an accurate disposal off.

I would much prefer us to tackle immediately and to deny their opponent the luxury of that time. Even if the tackle is not successful their opponents is much less likely to be able to dispose of the ball as well.

[White Winmar]

Point number 2 sums it up in 25 words or less, SRS. Apart from Steven and Roo, we don't have players who can really change the momentum of a game. It was interesting how we flagged when Steven and Roo went off. Cheatwood and Dangermouse murdered us, especially when it counted. Cheat wood all night and danger when he got off the leash in the last. It's why you need elite talent to be a genuine top 4 threat. Martin or Fyfe, anyone?

[ChrisRyanSaints]

In the scheme of things does 2017 ladder position matter??

I say we keep trying this. It works. When ON we smash even the top teams. So what will happen in 2019 when we have mastered this game and can run out 4 quarters?? Keep the core group and synergy. We will be unstoppable in 2019
Demons Dogs have used heir money and picks we havent yet. Remember that.

[SydneySainter]

In the scheme of things does 2017 ladder position matter??

I say we keep trying this. It works. When ON we smash even the top teams. So what will happen in 2019 when we have mastered this game and can run out 4 quarters?? Keep the core group and synergy. We will be unstoppable in 2019
Demons Dogs have used heir money and picks we havent yet. Remember that.

What top teams are we smashing?

We've only beaten the Lions and Collingwood. We stayed with the Eagles and Cats for three quarters and got smashed in the last. So close but so far.

It's extremely naive to think that mastering a pressure game plan will make us invincible and compensate for a lack of class players. Lyon had that attitude in '09 and '10.

The only reason I think we should keep with it is because we haven't got the depth of class to compete otherwise.

[samoht]

Our inside game may work against some teams - but if we go with the same side as the one picked on the weekend, we will be beaten on the outside by a fair few teams - even by an average team like Essendon, who has some leg speed.

The selectors need to pick more balanced teams - give us more outside run.

[Impatient Sainter]

Agree that our GP is very taxing, but I think its more we dont have the midfield quality and rotations to run out 4 quarters against top sides than a lack of plan B. What was Geelongs plan B Selwood, Dangerfield and there runners stand up in the last 2 quarters.

This is why I find it surprising that Richo thought he had the midfield group to go with the better teams. It also what frustrates the shyte out of me about his coaching he simply hasnt been prepared to give other players the same opportunities through the midfield as Dunstan & Billings etc. People continually right off Minchington and Sinclair as not AFL standard but if they got the oppotunities that Richo's love children did they would prove to be more than capable.

Longer played his first AFL game in 2 years and ran out of legs lets give him a couple more games to get up to the tempo of the game. He rucked well and gave first use a numbr of times.

Stevens should have played yesterday not Dunstan. Dunstan is cooked and crying out for a break in the VFL.
Billings is a long way short of becoming a solid midfielder or even a wingmen.

We desperately need to Recruit midfielders who can run and spread and cope with the aerobic requirements of the game. At the moment we have 2 Steven & Ross better sides have 6-8 capable mids. We are akin to a Holden Statesman with a 2litre engine. If we are really honest after yesterdays performance we are a long way short of being a finals team this year!

[White Winmar]

More like a Leyand P76, IS.

[Impatient Sainter]

More like a Leyand P76, IS.

Very good ☆

[barneyboyz]

Gameplan is ok. It is what has kept us in games so far, only to a point though; for example, the pressure gets the turnovers, but many times when this happens we just give it back, silly mistakes that most teams are doing this year. Add to this the tired legs late in games and we drop off enough for the better sides to capitalise, this was the difference yesterday.

Make no mistake, Geelong have a significantly better midfield than us NOW, but we are building and managing our deficiencies as we go.

Billy was getting his hands on the ball early but tired...as did Steven, you could give them both some grace though.

Our biggest worry for the moment is our big forwards and their lack of form.

If playing finals was the most significant KPI this year, well there's an argument for having concerns, but it isn't and we need to have perspective here, our losses to date (other than out West) have been to better sides on the day...simples!

[spert]

What game plan?

Just looks like we are running around like headless chickens and using up all our energy in the process- a really inefficient way to play.

[Jacks Back]

PLEASE, when we get a turnover in our back line the next kick MUST hit a target. There are too many times when we turn it straight back over by kicking it to a one or one (or even a 1 on 3 - Long v 3 cats ) rather then kicking it to someone by themselves.

[White Winmar]

Oh please. All this nonsense about a "game plan". The truth is, there is a loose structure about how we play, but it changes as the situation demands. What it comes down to is how many talented players you have. They determine how you go. They determine this themselves. Apart from stoppage tactics and how they set up in terms of structures, defensively and in attack, players are left to their own intuition. You can't coach brilliance and achievement.

Game plans are purely for predictability and to help the lesser players understand what's going on. Game plans are overrated. Players know what to do. I can assure you, if I threw the best 22 players in the league together they would flog the best drilled team of robots every time. Richo needs more imagination, not rigidity. He wants to be more Bevo 2.0 and less Ross Lyon 2.0.

[White Winmar]

Oh please. All this nonsense about a "game plan". The truth is, there is a loose structure about how we play, but it changes as the situation demands. What it comes down to is how many talented players you have. They determine how you go. They determine this themselves. Apart from stoppage tactics and how they set up in terms of structures, defensively and in attack, players are left to their own intuition. You can't coach brilliance and achievement.

Game plans are purely for predictability and to help the lesser players understand what's going on. Game plans are overrated. Players know what to do. I can assure you, if I threw the best 22 players in the league together they would flog the best drilled team of robots every time. Richo needs more imagination, not rigidity. He wants to be more Bevo 2.0 and less Ross Lyon 2.0.

[barneyboyz]

Oh please. All this nonsense about a "game plan". The truth is, there is a loose structure about how we play, but it changes as the situation demands. What it comes down to is how many talented players you have. They determine how you go. They determine this themselves. Apart from stoppage tactics and how they set up in terms of structures, defensively and in attack, players are left to their own intuition. You can't coach brilliance and achievement.

Game plans are purely for predictability and to help the lesser players understand what's going on. Game plans are overrated. Players know what to do. I can assure you, if I threw the best 22 players in the league together they would flog the best drilled team of robots every time. Richo needs more imagination, not rigidity. He wants to be more Bevo 2.0 and less Ross Lyon 2.0.

The long haired blond fellow (don't know his name) cut us a new one in the middle yesterday, as much as anyone and finished with a demoralising goal. That's what we need; we have some grunt, but we need a greyhound or two

[Linton Lodger]

Nothing wrong with the gameplan and no good reason why we shouldn't be a contender next year.

Premierships come from rock solid defence first. Our first half yesterday demonstrated the sort of pressure we saw under Lyon in 2009. Remember, it took us 3 years to get to the level of fitness required to play that style, with 2007 & 2008 being frustrating. That was a seasoned list as well, not a young one like our current one. Whether it is a failure of our training services or the fact that our list still hasn't got enough games into it, we are struggling to sustain the pressure (which has gone up another level this year) for four quarters.

If we get to the point where we can sustain it for four quarters, then there won't be too many teams beating us. We are Ok with ball in hand as well, our use by hand is progressing into the freakish, we just need to be more composed by foot (that could also be a fatigue issue).

We've had a somewhat frustrating start to the season, but at least the games have shown up our deficiencies early in the season and we can work on them. The Bulldogs on the other hand have a better win loss than us at this stage and they have been playing bruise free crap. I don't know if they realise they're not going well, but if they play the way they've been playing against Adelaide they will cop a 100 poimt hiding.

We know where we're deficient, we need some outside speed and a bit more class in midfield, that's all. Facing that, we have a lot of money to spend given the salary cap space we've facilitated and two first round picks going into next year. In addition Nathan Freeman has gotten through two Senior VFL matches unscathed.

I was furious with our last quarter yesterday, but don't worry we're on the right track and are good enough to play finals this year.

[barneyboyz]

Yep, and remembering that we were in front at 3/4 time...after this many things fell away

[Impatient Sainter]

Oh please. All this nonsense about a "game plan". The truth is, there is a loose structure about how we play, but it changes as the situation demands. What it comes down to is how many talented players you have. They determine how you go. They determine this themselves. Apart from stoppage tactics and how they set up in terms of structures, defensively and in attack, players are left to their own intuition. You can't coach brilliance and achievement.

Game plans are purely for predictability and to help the lesser players understand what's going on. Game plans are overrated. Players know what to do. I can assure you, if I threw the best 22 players in the league together they would flog the best drilled team of robots every time. Richo needs more imagination, not rigidity. He wants to be more Bevo 2.0 and less Ross Lyon 2.0.

Totally agree WW. Richo seems to go with the same 3 or 4 mids each week and hasnt developed or entrusted others enough. He is very RL like in that form no imagination...

[ace]

Nothing wrong with the plan of top 4 in 2018.
The problem was in the execution.
Bring in Bontempelli and Petracca in our side and it is very realistic.

Due to execution failure the plan must be put on hold.
We may have killed our chance in a generation with those two wrong picks, but two inspired picks with our probably two top 10 picks in 2017 can save the day.
The plan however will have to be more like top 4 in 2021.

Gold Coast and GWS got similar concessions.
GWS was down to earth and recruited wisely, Gold Coast was carrying on like Holywood directors celebrating their entry to the AFL but picking C grade actors.
Correct staff selection is so important for a successful business.

[Saints43]

Aren't we paying about 90% of the salary cap?

What do we expect to happen against well run clubs paying 100% of the cap and recruit mature players for the now?

[samuraisaint]

I'll start this by saying I like AR and think he's going to be a good coach but something needs to change. Our game plan relies on manic pressure for four quarters and its bloody obvious we can only sustain it for 3, so whats our plan B?

Our current game plan is trying to hide our players lack of genuine skilled ball users, trying to wallpaper over the cracks, and thats fine against the lower teams but it will never stack up against the top teams who can absorb the pressure and respond in kind,and we'll be continually found wanting until this is addressed.

Ok top end talent will obviously help so a couple of FA and hopefully a decent pick from Hawks this year will be great but the coaches still need to come up with another gameplan that will work with the current players strengths and limitations. I genuinely think the coaches (and most of us) have over estimated our chances of making finals this year. Really we should be using this year as another development year for the likes of Minch, McKenzie, White, Rice, Sinclair and co. As much as I love the oldies Gilbert and Monty they're not going to be part of our next finals campaigns so its time to move on and look at development and its time to look at players like Dunstan, who just aren't up to it yet, and make the hard calls. There's no easy fix and unfortunately in our current climate of 'immediate satisfaction' I think we need to be careful we're not chasing the romance of making finals to the detriment of our long term progress. Thoughts?

Well, having some players in our forward half to kick to when we win the ball in the midfield would be a start.

[Con Gorozidis]

Watching the replay I think our weakness is simple. Way too many long bombs fwd. We seem to long bomb in most entries. It probably explains why we get so many points. Either rushed or scrambles from a pack in front of goal.
We need tidier I50 entries and more space created around the 40-50m arc. That is the area you should be scoring most of your goals from.

We have only managed 62 goals for season. Equal 12th with the Lions.
The top teams have kicked between 80 and 100.

[carn_sainter]

Watching the replay I think our weakness is simple. Way too many long bombs fwd. We seem to long bomb in most entries. It probably explains why we get so many points. Either rushed or scrambles from a pack in front of goal.
We need tidier I50 entries and more space created around the 40-50m arc. That is the area you should be scoring most of your goals from.

This is correct. Further afield, we also tend to bomb the last kick before the kick inside 50.

We've been very good defensively, and we have good ideas offensively and often have a decent swarm of players running forward.

Our biggest problems are:

- Top shelf guns in the middle of the ground, as discussed in this thread
- Hitting targets out of defensive 50. So often, we miss a leading player on the wing and our chain of possessions turns into a ball-up or boundary throw in. That's a turnover.
- Forward options/structure.

All of this causes those bombing kicks. Turning it over on the wing and having to start again lets defenders set up, having nothing to kick to means you have to wait and then just bomb it in, having so few damaging kicks on the ground means that your entries are messy as hell, like ours.

We're pretty damn good at stopping the opposition, making it hard for them and getting the ball back.

We're just awful at using it ourselves. Even when we have got it back in the middle of the ground with everyone running in the opposite direction except for a couple saints and one opponent inside 50 we haven't been able to score a goal. That's obscene.

The reality is that our skill level in general play is less than should be expected of AFL players. In this regard we don't need super guns, we just need AFL quality disposal.