I don't hate certain players!

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BigMart
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I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663307Post BigMart »

As some would lead you to believe...

Or even dislike them? In fact I don't know most of them at all?? There is no vendetta???

It's not personal, or even something to enjoy... saying negative things about a young guy who pulls on the jumper and gives their all... it's just an analysis of performance. They all have great ability, great courage and work hard.

But it's a brutal, results driven business, and they are well paid professional athletes, and they have attributes and deficiencies.... if their deficiencies are costing the team, they cop the criticism through analysis.

If someone disagrees, they can debate that point... but NO it becomes personal... a 'Paddywhacker' or Billings basher or worse still... questioning Gresh? it's NOT personal, it's football, 95% of them are great young men doing themselves proud, possibly down on form or confidence.... and can improve!

On another thread, someone suggested I'd be happy Luke D had a shocker?

Not at all, prefer it if Luke had 35 and a break out game... he won't, until he can run like a mid... but it will be great if he ever can!

And Paddy - Apparently I have it in for him? A great young fella, who has obvious ability?!

Well I actually think if he got into AFL shape, and got 50 games under his belt... I honestly believe he can be a 60 goal 8 marks per game lead up power forward ... I query whether he will put that work in, because he hasn't got near that level in 3 year, but maybe he will, probably he will, who knows?

Billings, lazy (of course AFL player relative) and as such is not performing at the level expected and lost confidence as a result. At 18 he looked better... when less was expected. Now he is exposed because he can't go to the next level.

Why are we afraid to acknowledge deficiencies, concerns, disappointment in players... is our inferiority complex that strong?

Oh,
And of course, everything I post is merely opinion? Why it's taken umbrage to so much bemuses me?
Been right, been wrong... like everyone. Also, I do post positive reviews often, just post negative ones as well... which ones get remembered... not the positive... ie/Rowan Marshall, Minch, Robbo etc ...

You can support someone, and admit or suggest they aren't performing


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663314Post elizabethr »

You have reasonable opinions granted but need to focus on avaliblilty


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663484Post Joffa Burns »

Glad this isn't a look at me post BM :oops:


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663485Post bigcarl »

Here I was losing sleep over whether you hated certain players. Thanks for setting us straight. :wink:


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663487Post saynta »

shakes head.


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663502Post The_President »

Joffa Burns wrote:Glad this isn't a look at me post BM :oops:

Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663509Post To the top »

Interesting that you feel so disposed as to defend yourself.

Me thinks that and the references to being a former Champion sports performer and now teaching sport tells us something!

I happen to be of the opinion that the future of the Club revolves around the First Round Draft Picks we have had over recent years (so Billings, Dunstan, Acres, McCartin, Goddard and Gresham) plus the players we have specifically targeted and recruited in (Freeman, Carlisle, Steele), who we will Draft with the 2 First Round Picks we have and any "Free Agent" we go after.

Then there are our established players such as Steven, Armitage, Newnes, Ross who have shown their credentials and our veterans who have shown and still show their credentials being Riewoldt, Montagna and Gilbert.

Plus some hope for recent 2nd Round Draft Picks such as White and McKenzie.

That, to me, is what we are working with.

And I view Brown, Stevens, Savage et al as transitory pending the development of others or recruiting.

So, that is an opinion and others can pass comment.

Will their comment change my opinion?

Probably not!

So I will not respond to comment, merely note.


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663519Post WellardSaint »

To the top wrote:Interesting that you feel so disposed as to defend yourself.

Me thinks that and the references to being a former Champion sports performer and now teaching sport tells us something!

.....
And I view Brown, Stevens, Savage et al as transitory pending the development of others or recruiting.

So, that is an opinion and others can pass comment.

Will their comment change my opinion?

Probably not!

So I will not respond to comment, merely note.
I have edited your post for brevity.
I agree with you about Savage being a stop-gap (currently), I think when the Club traded Ben, and were offered Shane, they saw a very young kid with potential,
because he was an emergency for the GF. He has been in the seniors for a while, was dropped in 2015, seemed to make the coaches happy, so returned;
this year he has been underwhelming, and others are now preferred down back. He faces an uphill battle to regain his spot, and I don't know whether he can return anytime soon.

Stevens has been in the system since 2012, I think, as an Eagle, but due to injury, only managed 12 games for the Doggies in the last 2 years;
he might just be a gap-filler for us, as I don't know how much improvement he has left. He might come in to cover injuries.

Brown this man is a revelation. I initially figured he would be OK as a replacement for Fisher, until Goddard finishes his rehab and comes on strong.
Questions are raised over his lack of pace, alleged high floating kicks, and the turning circle of a semi-trailer.
Remember Hugh G seems to be unable to change direction, and before his injury, appeared to need a lot more time (he is still young though)
I regard Brown and Carlisle, currently, as being more than useful; I believe they are both working well together and I love how they work in defence.
I'm sure Robbo has felt a huge impact from their presence, so the dynamic down back is great (forget our last quarter the other day)


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663525Post BigMart »

Perhaps I feel it necessary to defend myself due to continual personal attacks from really nasty people who post, even like the jibes on this thread prove my point... I've even resorted to reporting abuse now, just over it!

I give many critical footy opinions, the reaction is rarely to debate footy, it's generally just vitriolic garb... generally from 'better supporters' who quite possibly can't give a counter because they don't have one? They just play the man, or join into some nice bullying tactics to full good I suppose?

I could give a 100 examples of abusive replies to whatever I post, and we know it to be true... I don't really care, hence the continuation of my posting style, I've never been intimidated by bullies or bowed down to populari opinion... I try to be forthright and honest.
And I don't have to say 'look at me'
For a start this is an anonymous forum, so that's pointless??
But I actually don't understand or want the fascination that some posters seem to have with me

But MAINLY I wanted to set the record straight ... because morons on here would have you believe that I have vendettas against players and are happy to see them fail!

Lastly
On being a sporting star? Not sure I have ever stated that?? Never been a professional or elite, never said I was... just that I play? But the comment about that on this thread just proves how crap just gets made up to suit?!
For a start I am a cricketer?!
As a footy player, generally just your local player who got some pocket money (like thousands of others) as a young man, like many I tried out, but circumstances and ability got in the way. Now I play low grade VAFA and Supers for kicks and giggles.

And as a golfer
Frustrated!!!

And yes, I have been a phys ed teacher, so what?


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663531Post kosifantutti »

Cool story bro!


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663532Post dragit »

I'll wait for the movie to come out...


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663533Post RODOS »

I've had my qualms with the 'mart, that I'll go into a bit below, but to the posters ragging on this thread, what did you think it was going to be about? Why even respond if you think it not worth your time?

I think football is a way for a lot of people to escape the day to day and embrace that ol' thing called 'hope' on a regular basis, and sometimes the precise analytical view of someone that is very sure that the cup is filled mid-way, can really be a dampener. Like sometimes maybe you could just list a few less negatives along with your positives, purely for the reader's enjoyment.

But with that said I think you're notably more upbeat than you used to be and find myself agreeing a lot more with the things you post. Also you're not getting embroiled in the he said she said crap which is nice.

Also we share the same opinion on Marshall :)

I really enjoy your VFL reviews and you keep this place ticking as much as anyone.

(p.s. I'm a long time reader more so than poster.)


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663553Post twirlyhair »

BigMart wrote:As some would lead you to believe...

Or even dislike them? In fact I don't know most of them at all?? There is no vendetta???

It's not personal, or even something to enjoy... saying negative things about a young guy who pulls on the jumper and gives their all... it's just an analysis of performance. They all have great ability, great courage and work hard.

But it's a brutal, results driven business, and they are well paid professional athletes, and they have attributes and deficiencies.... if their deficiencies are costing the team, they cop the criticism through analysis.

If someone disagrees, they can debate that point... but NO it becomes personal... a 'Paddywhacker' or Billings basher or worse still... questioning Gresh? it's NOT personal, it's football, 95% of them are great young men doing themselves proud, possibly down on form or confidence.... and can improve!

On another thread, someone suggested I'd be happy Luke D had a shocker?

Not at all, prefer it if Luke had 35 and a break out game... he won't, until he can run like a mid... but it will be great if he ever can!

And Paddy - Apparently I have it in for him? A great young fella, who has obvious ability?!

Well I actually think if he got into AFL shape, and got 50 games under his belt... I honestly believe he can be a 60 goal 8 marks per game lead up power forward ... I query whether he will put that work in, because he hasn't got near that level in 3 year, but maybe he will, probably he will, who knows?

Billings, lazy (of course AFL player relative) and as such is not performing at the level expected and lost confidence as a result. At 18 he looked better... when less was expected. Now he is exposed because he can't go to the next level.

Why are we afraid to acknowledge deficiencies, concerns, disappointment in players... is our inferiority complex that strong?

Oh,
And of course, everything I post is merely opinion? Why it's taken umbrage to so much bemuses me?
Been right, been wrong... like everyone. Also, I do post positive reviews often, just post negative ones as well... which ones get remembered... not the positive... ie/Rowan Marshall, Minch, Robbo etc ...

You can support someone, and admit or suggest they aren't performing
Yeah but big Marty boy, when you make a comment that a player is lazy (re:Billings) it suggests that you must know him personally (do you?) for how can you judge that a player is lazy, which therefore indicates a personal dislike for them.


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663567Post skeptic »

Hey BM, I'd like to share an opinion. Let me start off by saying that for whatever rows we've had, agree or not, I've generally always respected and enjoyed your opinion on players/performance etc

Where you get in trouble is that IMO you're prone to getting really fixated on things for a while, my observation is that you work them into topics again and again to the point that it stops being about the observation but more about proving you're right.

A recent example is that of Luke Dunstan - you raised the opinion initially around early second half of last year that he didn't get enough possessions and in fairness, you were pbly right...
But it's kind of at the point now that ppl are tired of talking about it, and especially having the discussion with yourself.

IMO it's plain to see that you really are a passionate Saints man and that your approach to football focuses more on what people need to do to be better rather than say enhancing the things that they're good or other approaches etc.

That's okay... I'm a bit the same. Sometimes it's worth backing off the point already made. For example, I've been a very tough critic of Sam Gilbert over the last few years and Fireman amongst others knows exactly where I stand on him. Now that said (and granted he's having a better season this year), I make it a point to not jump into every thread we're we criticise him on this forum... ppl don't need to here me say the same things over and over.

FWIW, I don't think anyone really thinks u genuinely hate players or have vendettas, want them to fail etc... like many of us you just want to see the Saints have the dream run we've all waited our lives for. And we all get frustrated sometimes. But when you happens you'll be there cheering just as maniacally as the rest of us if not more so.
Last edited by skeptic on Mon 24 Apr 2017 11:03pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663581Post derby Street »

skeptic wrote:Hey BM, I'd like to share an option. Let me start off by saying that for whatever rows we've had, agree or not, I've generally always respected and enjoyed your opinion on players/performance etc

Where you get in trouble is that IMO you're prone to getting really fixated on things for a while my observation is that you work them into topics again and again to the point that it stops being about the observation but more about proving you're right.

A recent example is that of Luke Dunstan - you raised the opinion initially around early second half of last year that he didn't get enough possessions and in fairness, you were pbly right...
But it's kind of at the point now that ppl are tired of talking about it, and especially having the discussion with yourself.

IMO it's plain to see that you really are a passionate Saints man and that your approach to football focuses more on what people need to do to be better rather than say enhancing the things that they're good or other approaches etc.

That's okay... I'm a bit the same. Sometimes it's worth backing off the point already made. For example, I've been a very tough critic of Sam Gilbert over the last few years and Fireman amongst others knows exactly where I stand on him. Now that said (and granted he's having a better season this year), I make it a point to not jump into every thread we're we criticise him on this forum... ppl don't need to here me say the same things over and over.

FWIW, I don't think anyone really thinks u genuinely hate players or have vendettas, want them to fail etc... like many of us you just want to see the Saints have the dream run we've all waited our lives for. And we all get frustrated sometimes. But when you happens you'll be there cheering just as maniacally as the rest of us if not more so.
good honest post IMHO


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663609Post skeptic »

Cheers derby street...

A big criticism of BM over the years is that he leans heavy on the criticism/negative but the thing is (in my opinion of course) he often doesn't mean to. I think when BM rates a performance it's not just based on what he sees but also on what it could be.

The Jade Gresham thread a few weeks ago was a good example of that...
You could say that Gresh has an amazing side-step, the ability to kick freaky goals, run to the right spaces and create things out of nothing and you'd be right. Whilst BM sees that, I think he also sees that if Gresh had a bigger tank to get to more contests, chased and pressured more to force turnovers, more regularly used his sublime skills to set up team mates, and generally provided more run then he could be a truly elite player of the comp.

Neither point of view is wrong it's just that focusing on areas of improvement often comes across as negative.


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663619Post dragit »

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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663633Post desertsaint »

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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663721Post BigMart »

Dragit

Thanks for proving my point

Twirly

Thanks also, but in a different way... I called JB lazy ... it's not a personal comment, and I believe I explicitly stated it was AFL relative? But you need to understand I was speaking in only a footy sense?.. he doesn't work hard.

Skeptic... I do get fixated, I don't understand why obvious issues are not dealt with, or why obviously bad decisions are made... in the past recruiting, ATM selection. To me it is clear a person 10 possessions down on average would get a consistent game at any club?
Nothing against Luke, but perhaps he needs to earn a spot, like Minch, Sinclair and others have to... I can't see why he's an automatic... he cannot run! Personally, unless he fixes that, I'd warn him about delisting! Harsh, because he needs to take his game to the next level, and he controls that... he's too heavy and has no running power. He can play, really well, but can't get to enough contests.

On Gresham
He's clearly a talent. However, people saying he's a star or a gun is quite silly, he's 19?! Potentially he is, of course!
I've seen supporters on here, go completely over the top with kids and overrate them. Games like Geelong are examples of the fact Gresh is not a gun (yet) Guns or stars consistently deliver, and impact - Jack Steven is a gun.
He's got some terrific traits, and when he gets afl fit, he will probably be a gun?... happy with his progress, and look forward to a transition next season.. with a view 2019 being a breakout. However, even that's conjecture?

I honestly think
McCartin, Billings, Gresham (he's only second year), Dunstan, Lonie
Are not AFL fit

Newnes and Ross only made it... when their level of fitness allowed them to compete at AFL standard


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663743Post The Fireman »

mental note...don't post when drunk.


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663750Post Con Gorozidis »

I love them all. I just occasionally wonder how some will end up.
JB is slow, not tough and a poor shot on goal. He is kind of like Luke Hodge but not as tough. Similar size, athleticism and type of player imo.
Maybe half back and midfield is his go?


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663769Post White Winmar »

BigMart wrote:Perhaps I feel it necessary to defend myself due to continual personal attacks from really nasty people who post, even like the jibes on this thread prove my point... I've even resorted to reporting abuse now, just over it!

I give many critical footy opinions, the reaction is rarely to debate footy, it's generally just vitriolic garb... generally from 'better supporters' who quite possibly can't give a counter because they don't have one? They just play the man, or join into some nice bullying tactics to full good I suppose?

I could give a 100 examples of abusive replies to whatever I post, and we know it to be true... I don't really care, hence the continuation of my posting style, I've never been intimidated by bullies or bowed down to populari opinion... I try to be forthright and honest.
And I don't have to say 'look at me'
For a start this is an anonymous forum, so that's pointless??
But I actually don't understand or want the fascination that some posters seem to have with me

But MAINLY I wanted to set the record straight ... because morons on here would have you believe that I have vendettas against players and are happy to see them fail!

Lastly
On being a sporting star? Not sure I have ever stated that?? Never been a professional or elite, never said I was... just that I play? But the comment about that on this thread just proves how crap just gets made up to suit?!
For a start I am a cricketer?!
As a footy player, generally just your local player who got some pocket money (like thousands of others) as a young man, like many I tried out, but circumstances and ability got in the way. Now I play low grade VAFA and Supers for kicks and giggles.

And as a golfer
Frustrated!!!

And yes, I have been a phys ed teacher, so what?
Haters gonna hate, BM. Remember somebody shot Gandhi.


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663770Post dragit »

BigMart wrote:Dragit

Thanks for proving my point
Sorry mate I didn't actually read your post after the first line, was your point to create a thread about you and how you feel unfairly persecuted?

Cheer up champ, your opinions, some good, some bad, hold exactly the same weight as every other patron on here… your amateur sports career while pretty irrelevant, is something you have brought into the mix, many times.


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663775Post Jacks Back »

BigMart wrote:Dragit

Thanks for proving my point

Twirly

Thanks also, but in a different way... I called JB lazy ... it's not a personal comment, and I believe I explicitly stated it was AFL relative? But you need to understand I was speaking in only a footy sense?.. he doesn't work hard.

Skeptic... I do get fixated, I don't understand why obvious issues are not dealt with, or why obviously bad decisions are made... in the past recruiting, ATM selection. To me it is clear a person 10 possessions down on average would get a consistent game at any club?
Nothing against Luke, but perhaps he needs to earn a spot, like Minch, Sinclair and others have to... I can't see why he's an automatic... he cannot run! Personally, unless he fixes that, I'd warn him about delisting! Harsh, because he needs to take his game to the next level, and he controls that... he's too heavy and has no running power. He can play, really well, but can't get to enough contests.

On Gresham
He's clearly a talent. However, people saying he's a star or a gun is quite silly, he's 19?! Potentially he is, of course!
I've seen supporters on here, go completely over the top with kids and overrate them. Games like Geelong are examples of the fact Gresh is not a gun (yet) Guns or stars consistently deliver, and impact - Jack Steven is a gun.
He's got some terrific traits, and when he gets afl fit, he will probably be a gun?... happy with his progress, and look forward to a transition next season.. with a view 2019 being a breakout. However, even that's conjecture?

I honestly think
McCartin, Billings, Gresham (he's only second year), Dunstan, Lonie
Are not AFL fit

Newnes and Ross only made it... when their level of fitness allowed them to compete at AFL standard
+1


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Re: I don't hate certain players!

Post: # 1663776Post Jacks Back »

No one should be an automatic selection at the stage we are at and especially not players that are not playing well but still somehow keep getting a game. What happened to all our alleged depth?


As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”


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