Billings and mccartin

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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Joe Bloggs » Sun 16 Apr 2017 8:47am

Playon wrote:
Joe Bloggs wrote:Can someone post the Paddy article by Mark Robinson. Please. tonight's Herald sun .

Paddy McCartin is yet to deliver at AFL level but did the Saints err in picking him No.1
MARK ROBINSON, Herald Sun
April 15, 2017 6:00pm
Subscriber only

PADDY McCartin and St Kilda would be thinking that maybe this is not turning out as it should.

Two years and four games into his career, the No.1 draft pick was axed for Sunday’s clash against Collingwood.

When they drafted McCartin, the forward, ahead of Christian Petracca, the midfielder, the hope was he would be a weapon for the Saints in games like this, not a player huddled in the grandstand looking on. Not two years on.

Saints coach Alan Richardson didn’t have choice other than to boot McCartin from this week’s team after a lacklustre performance in a winning team the week before.

In fact, Richardson clearly was disappointed in McCartin’s output against the Lions.

McCartin spent 26 minutes on the ground in the second half last week, the fewest by any non-injured player in a half this year.
Paddy McCartin in action for Sandringham. Picture: Mark Dadswell

As a result, the biggest positional change was Nick Riewoldt. Riewoldt spent 64 per cent of game-time on the wing in the first half and 79 per cent of game-time forward in the second half.

Not for the first time, Richardson went for St Nick ahead of St Pat in the forward line.

It’s not an emergency situation with McCartin, for he is 21 in a week and played just 19 games.

But there is a sense of impatience despite the awareness of McCartin’s concussion history.

That comes with expectation as the No.1 draft pick. Because if McCartin was taken at pick No.46, this column would not be written.

But he is No.1. And the Saints took him ahead of Petracca.

And the Saints took Jack Billings (No.3) ahead of Marcus Bontempelli (No.4) in the 2013 national draft.

And if we wanted to be blunt, the Saints have McCartin and Billings when they could’ve had Bontempelli and Petracca.
Paddy McCartin has had his issues with concussion.

That argument, while thought-provoking for Saints fans, is a little premature in regards to McCartin.

In many aspects, he is a carbon copy of Geelong’s Tom Hawkins at the same time. Big bodied. Good hands. Average tank. Struggled early.

At the same time of their careers, McCartin’s numbers are not as strong as Hawkins’ numbers, but as the Cats did with Tommy, the Saints will do with Patty.

That’s be patient.

Not everyone is. Danny Frawley, who also happens to work at St Kilda, says McCartin doesn’t compete hard enough. “He’s got to get more competitive, it’s as simple as that,” Frawley said. “That’s his DNA - compete.”

Former Saints midfielder Nick Dal Santo said: “He hasn’t shown enough for me. I’d like to see more progress in his game.”

The move from unders to senior football is akin to walking normally through airports and walking on moving walkways at airports.

Everything is the same, but it’s a step too quick and it’s one of the reasons why less-athletic key forwards struggle for possessions early in their careers. That an inexperience.

The point is rookie mids can latch on to some easy ball. Rookie key forwards rely on their hands.

It just doesn’t come easy.

At Geelong, when the coaches were wanting more young a young Hawkins, Cameron Mooney would urge patience. He could see the talent. It eventually worked out as Hawkins was able to grow and develop into a largely stay-at-home forward who marked the ball.

Former coach Terry Wallace likes the comparison.

“For every knock on where he is at the moment, you can sit there and ask: ‘Was Tom Hawkins that far ahead of him at the same time’? Was Jack Watts that far ahead of him at the same time?

“But that doesn’t come with a money-back guarantee that he becomes Tom Hawkins.’’

Back to the draft, and this is not helpful for the Saints or McCartin, but already questions are being asked about McCartin ahead of Petracca.

One argument is McCartin would be needed to replace Riewoldt and that if they took another midfielder, how in the hell would they get a key forward down the track. The Bulldogs paid $6 million for Tom Boyd. What would the Saints pay if they had to pay for one?

Anyhow, history tells us gun key forwards are secured with early draft picks and that with Billings taken the year before, it was wise to go with McCartin with pick No.1.

The other argument is the Saints got it wrong.

“I always do phantom drafts and that year I could not believe St Kilda picked him ahead of Christian Petracca,’’ Wallace said. “I could not believe with the power Petracca had, where he sat, I thought comfortably Petracca was the No.1 in the national draft.’’

Still, Wallace said the securing of a key position avoided a situation where the Saints would have to ‘’sell the farm’’ to recruit one, ala Boyd.

That McCartin was dropped this weekend adds another layer to the pressure on him - and Richardson.

The Saints want him to get fitter, want him to lose weight, and last week against the Lions, he was ordinary.

Richardson needs to lay down the law and at the same time offer encouragement, and will have to ask question after question over the coming weeks about whether Patty is playing or not.

The pressure grows as does the impatience, and if they continue to grow, so will the argument about McCartin v Petracca.

As always, time will tell who is the winner



Thanks for posting Playon.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Myron Gaines » Sun 16 Apr 2017 9:29am

st.byron wrote:
Myron Gaines wrote:
ace wrote:
Myron Gaines wrote:Let's be honest. Paddy is overweight, lacks the athletic requirement for professional sport & is dwindling away in the reserves. He looks like a country ammos footballer ffs. That's enough for me to be disappointed.

I reckon the only bloke in Australia that would've picked Paddy at number 1 is Trout & he convinced the club to pick him & overlook the clear best talent in the draft - Pettraca. Not Paddy's fault but Trout is lucky to hold his job.


Emma Quayle sat in on all our draft meetings and wrote this in her book.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/i ... j2ybw.html

I think they overestimated McCartin.


Bloody hell there were plenty of red flags from the get go. Skinfolds, endurance, athletic ability, the diabetes, etc. Trout sold the club a lemon.


Hell yes. Reading that article just makes me groan.

""What have we decided about the diabetes?" asked the coach.

"We've done a lot of work in that regard," said Elshaug. "In some ways it's been a positive for him. It's got him organised, it's helped him form some resilience, it's kept him on his toes and it put up a hurdle that he's been able to overcome."

A positive for him..... really??? Talk about rose coloured glasses.

And we're still talking about him being overweight two and a half years later.

Noticed Robbo's article also went with "coulda had Petracca and Bont....."


Amateur hour wasn't it. St Kilda made he obvious decision not so obvious picking Paddy instead of CP.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby CURLY » Sun 16 Apr 2017 9:55am

FFS give him a run at it. Broken collarbones head Knicks he's played about 10 full games.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 16 Apr 2017 10:09am

The thing is. Hawkins is about twice the size of Paddy.
Hawkins is enormous.
If we had Trac and Bont we would be a flag contender every year for the next five.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby shrodes » Sun 16 Apr 2017 10:13am

ace wrote:
Myron Gaines wrote:Let's be honest. Paddy is overweight, lacks the athletic requirement for professional sport & is dwindling away in the reserves. He looks like a country ammos footballer ffs. That's enough for me to be disappointed.

I reckon the only bloke in Australia that would've picked Paddy at number 1 is Trout & he convinced the club to pick him & overlook the clear best talent in the draft - Pettraca. Not Paddy's fault but Trout is lucky to hold his job.


Emma Quayle sat in on all our draft meetings and wrote this in her book.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/i ... j2ybw.html

I think they overestimated McCartin.


It is a fascinating article. Reveals a bit about Richo's belief in Dunstan too.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby ace » Sun 16 Apr 2017 10:25am

Waltzing St Kilda wrote:Students of journalism need to study these stunning insights from Slobbo to learn what's required of an award-winning sports journo:


But he is No.1. And the Saints took him ahead of Petracca.

And the Saints took Jack Billings (No.3) ahead of Marcus Bontempelli (No.4) in the 2013 national draft.

And if we wanted to be blunt, the Saints have McCartin and Billings when they could’ve had Bontempelli and Petracca.

The move from unders to senior football is akin to walking normally through airports and walking on moving walkways at airports.

Back to the draft, and this is not helpful for the Saints or McCartin, but already questions are being asked about McCartin ahead of Petracca.

Anyhow, history tells us gun key forwards are secured with early draft picks and that with Billings taken the year before, it was wise to go with McCartin with pick No.1.

The other argument is the Saints got it wrong.

The pressure grows as does the impatience, and if they continue to grow, so will the argument about McCartin v Petracca.

As always, time will tell who is the winner

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/e ... 4deb27c93a
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby saint-stu » Sun 16 Apr 2017 11:00am

shrodes wrote:
ace wrote:
Myron Gaines wrote:Let's be honest. Paddy is overweight, lacks the athletic requirement for professional sport & is dwindling away in the reserves. He looks like a country ammos footballer ffs. That's enough for me to be disappointed.

I reckon the only bloke in Australia that would've picked Paddy at number 1 is Trout & he convinced the club to pick him & overlook the clear best talent in the draft - Pettraca. Not Paddy's fault but Trout is lucky to hold his job.


Emma Quayle sat in on all our draft meetings and wrote this in her book.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/i ... j2ybw.html

I think they overestimated McCartin.


It is a fascinating article. Reveals a bit about Richo's belief in Dunstan too.



I found this particularly fascinating:

We had our chance, too, but now here we are. And one of the reasons that's happened is because we spent all our money on too few players. We spent it on 10 players, and it left a big gulf. We had 55 per cent of the money going to 10 players."

"More," said Bains. "Just over 60 per cent."

"So you can see why we don't think we should go out and spend a lot of our money on just one player. Paddy's here, and we have the pick, and we're picking him."


It matches the team we had. We had a really great core group but it dropped off quickly after that. It looks like they're trying to build a more even spread this time, and it's noticable so far.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 16 Apr 2017 12:06pm

Richo loves Dunstan.
I think he sees Dunstan as a young version of himself.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Bluthy » Sun 16 Apr 2017 12:13pm

McCartin spent 26 minutes on the ground in the second half last week, the fewest by any non-injured player in a half this year.

As a result, the biggest positional change was Nick Riewoldt. Riewoldt spent 64 per cent of game-time on the wing in the first half and 79 per cent of game-time forward in the second half.


Wow really backing your young players in hey Richo. What a great message to send to a young impressionable player trying to get confidence at AFL pace where it is always extremely hard for young big guys lugging around extra weight. "We don't trust you out there, we aren't going to back you in whether you suceed or fail but we know you are learning and deveoloping " said Richo "No I will go back to the past because I am a conservative guy desperate for a win to keep my job"

I find this blaming of Paddy with 19 games and Jack not even 50 yet genuinely hilarious. They are not our problem - they actually have talent and will develop nicely with time as their bodies fill out letting their skills shine bright.

For Paddy, Roo sucks up huge volumes of ball and space. Then the ball is almost always bombed on Paddy's head from poor kicking all through the team. And he's played 19 games for crying out loud. The diabetes and concussions are a worrying back burning issue for shizzle, but crazy to be writing him off when he's in a s*** kicking team with Roo eating up all the space on pokey Ethihad. Richo also can't help himself going back to Roo forward to get wins as he lacks vision and is conservative. Roo should retire this year to let the next-gen forwards to be able to take full control. He'll go out on top that way.

Teams put work into shutting down Billings supply because his heavy kicking opens up the field often leading to goals. Jack's journey is now to work through that. That's his next step so thats why you get those platues - its very natural and happens to all good young players who start to show something. It should open up others to do damage but the problem is we don't have enough other talented kids in there to take over the burden.

Can we not see a pattern here - the pattern is Richo's crappy swarm, poor kicking game plan and lack of development of players like Acres, Sinclair, White, Rice etc who are talented, creatie players. Our recruiters can't be bombing out with every pick - it doesn't make sense mathematically. You give Clarkson Paddy, Billings, Acres etc and he would turn them into champions in a brilliant system that lets them shine.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby longtimesaint » Sun 16 Apr 2017 12:46pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:The thing is. Hawkins is about twice the size of Paddy.
Hawkins is enormous.
If we had Trac and Bont we would be a flag contender every year for the next five.

You still need someone in the forward line to kick the goals.
I would agree if Roo was 24 but he is 34 and we will need someone other than Bruce.
We don't have anyone the likes of Walker, Lynch or Cameron on the list.
I think we should forget about trading for a player and use our two picks this year for the best player.
One year will be our year
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby MC Gusto » Sun 16 Apr 2017 12:55pm

The comments post article are interesting

There is a Geelong fan there arguing he needs a break given Hawkins was under the pump with 50 games under his belt. He was dropped twice.

Give the kid a break I reckon
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Joffa Burns » Sun 16 Apr 2017 1:34pm

Myron Gaines wrote:
ace wrote:
Myron Gaines wrote:Let's be honest. Paddy is overweight, lacks the athletic requirement for professional sport & is dwindling away in the reserves. He looks like a country ammos footballer ffs. That's enough for me to be disappointed.

I reckon the only bloke in Australia that would've picked Paddy at number 1 is Trout & he convinced the club to pick him & overlook the clear best talent in the draft - Pettraca. Not Paddy's fault but Trout is lucky to hold his job.


Emma Quayle sat in on all our draft meetings and wrote this in her book.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/i ... j2ybw.html

I think they overestimated McCartin.


Bloody hell there were plenty of red flags from the get go. Skinfolds, endurance, athletic ability, the diabetes, etc. Trout sold the club a lemon.


Great article by Emma Quayle.

Shows the Boyd factor influenced the Paddy decision.

When AR questions Trout about the Diabetes, I don't read any reference to "we consulted the #1 medical expert in the country and he/she said ........"

Makes you wonder how debilitating it may be.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby takeaway » Sun 16 Apr 2017 1:38pm

McCartin has not reached 21 yet, he is a key forward, Petracca is just another solid midfielder, no gun in my opinion. As has been stated a number of times, good key forwards are very hard to find or very expensive.
I do not expect McCartin to really have an impact until he is 23 or 24, about when we should be really challenging. By that time Billings will have learnt the midfield caper as well as general football nous. Both do need a bit more aggression, but that will come and is being worked on by the coaches.

You always get the one out of the box like the Bont, but imo the recruiters have made absolutely the right decisions in Billings & McCartin, given that they wanted Kelly but he was gone at pick 2. The No. 1 pick at the time, the "gun" forward in Tom Boyd, to date cannot handle the permanent forward position, and has not really done much else except an overrated game in the GF, so Paddy has done alright.

People need to have patience, stop drinking instant coffee and wait for it to brew.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 16 Apr 2017 2:06pm

If Paddy is a 50 goal a season. 400 career goal player.
I'll be happy.
That puts him in a category alongside Anthony Rocca.
Probably a realistic benchmark.
Anthony was a pick 2 which is probably where Paddy should have gone.
Anthony had quite a few very good seasons so this would be a good outcome.
Any expectations beyond this are a pipe dream.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby BackFromUSA » Sun 16 Apr 2017 2:15pm

BigMart wrote:St Byron

He keeps asking me questions, I just respond?

Please point out any inappropriate language, abuse, or threats?

Has there been complaints, or is it just boring for you?? Not sure if you can abuse your position and make personal calls like that? BFUSAvp told me mods only act upon reported posts and assess if rules were broken??
Otherwise you could just act on posts you personally don't like
Perhaps delete posts???

Whilst I do agree SC continually baits me, if he questions me, sure I can respond or am allowed to defend my position??

If he fires something at me, like he did in another thread... I will reply.


Correcting BigMart here in an open forum. What I have said and continue to say is that we assess every report made. However we do not assess every post made in the forum. If we do come across a breach in our own reading of posts (that we do for enjoyment not duty) then we can issue a warning even if it has not been reported. But to be clear yet again - we do not read and assess every post, nor are we on here 24/7 to assess reports.

I agree with the "ongoing dispute" call made by St.Byron and in those we warn both parties AND there does not need to be a breach of any other rule as the rule that is broken is the ongoing dispute rule! Both StoneCold and BigMart are in dangerous territory. I advise they ignore each other or take their dispute to PM.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Joe Bloggs » Sun 16 Apr 2017 2:31pm

Bluthy wrote:
McCartin spent 26 minutes on the ground in the second half last week, the fewest by any non-injured player in a half this year.

As a result, the biggest positional change was Nick Riewoldt. Riewoldt spent 64 per cent of game-time on the wing in the first half and 79 per cent of game-time forward in the second half.


Wow really backing your young players in hey Richo. What a great message to send to a young impressionable player trying to get confidence at AFL pace where it is always extremely hard for young big guys lugging around extra weight. "We don't trust you out there, we aren't going to back you in whether you suceed or fail but we know you are learning and deveoloping " said Richo "No I will go back to the past because I am a conservative guy desperate for a win to keep my job"

I find this blaming of Paddy with 19 games and Jack not even 50 yet genuinely hilarious. They are not our problem - they actually have talent and will develop nicely with time as their bodies fill out letting their skills shine bright.

For Paddy, Roo sucks up huge volumes of ball and space. Then the ball is almost always bombed on Paddy's head from poor kicking all through the team. And he's played 19 games for crying out loud. The diabetes and concussions are a worrying back burning issue for shizzle, but crazy to be writing him off when he's in a s*** kicking team with Roo eating up all the space on pokey Ethihad. Richo also can't help himself going back to Roo forward to get wins as he lacks vision and is conservative. Roo should retire this year to let the next-gen forwards to be able to take full control. He'll go out on top that way.

Teams put work into shutting down Billings supply because his heavy kicking opens up the field often leading to goals. Jack's journey is now to work through that. That's his next step so thats why you get those platues - its very natural and happens to all good young players who start to show something. It should open up others to do damage but the problem is we don't have enough other talented kids in there to take over the burden.

Can we not see a pattern here - the pattern is Richo's crappy swarm, poor kicking game plan and lack of development of players like Acres, Sinclair, White, Rice etc who are talented, creatie players. Our recruiters can't be bombing out with every pick - it doesn't make sense mathematically. You give Clarkson Paddy, Billings, Acres etc and he would turn them into champions in a brilliant system that lets them shine.[/quote

Retire Roo ? In career best form . Shall we retire our top five players so those at Sandy can get a game. When Roo has gone we will play accordingly...Him being there doesn't stifle development it makes us a better team. Your continuous sarcastic remarks about Richo are pathetic ..I'm sure you don't coach a football team and your pessimistic outlook and mumblings about footy are depressing. Cheer up see some positives in life. Nothing wrong with Paddy being in the seconds it will be good for him to practice his craft.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby magnifisaint » Sun 16 Apr 2017 3:08pm

MC Gusto wrote:The comments post article are interesting

There is a Geelong fan there arguing he needs a break given Hawkins was under the pump with 50 games under his belt. He was dropped twice.

Give the kid a break I reckon

Yeah give him a Kit Kat
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Playon » Sun 16 Apr 2017 3:14pm

Joe Bloggs wrote:
Retire Roo ? In career best form . Shall we retire our top five players so those at Sandy can get a game. When Roo has gone we will play accordingly...Him being there doesn't stifle development it makes us a better team. Your continuous sarcastic remarks about Richo are pathetic ..I'm sure you don't coach a football team and your pessimistic outlook and mumblings about footy are depressing. Cheer up see some positives in life. Nothing wrong with Paddy being in the seconds it will be good for him to practice his craft.


Yep you're right. Paddy's learning nothing in the AFL if he's struggling to get a kick. Sandy the best place for him.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Playon » Sun 16 Apr 2017 3:28pm

saint-stu wrote:
I found this particularly fascinating:

We had our chance, too, but now here we are. And one of the reasons that's happened is because we spent all our money on too few players. We spent it on 10 players, and it left a big gulf. We had 55 per cent of the money going to 10 players."

"More," said Bains. "Just over 60 per cent."

"So you can see why we don't think we should go out and spend a lot of our money on just one player. Paddy's here, and we have the pick, and we're picking him."


It matches the team we had. We had a really great core group but it dropped off quickly after that. It looks like they're trying to build a more even spread this time, and it's noticable so far.


What does that tell you about the chances of chasing Fyfe, Dusty and Kelly (thanks to Norths ridiculous offer)
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby dragit » Sun 16 Apr 2017 3:36pm

Kelly is going to be on a bigger contract than Boyd…
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 16 Apr 2017 3:48pm

What do people think of Darcy Moore?
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Dave McNamara » Sun 16 Apr 2017 3:53pm

At the time, I posted long and hard for Petracca over Paddy, and was furious when our club went the other way. However, I can now see why they did.

As has been pointed out, key position players, especially key forwards, are much much harder to come by than midfielders.

Then, the Poodles inexplicably paid a ridiculous $1 million a year for that dud Tom Boyd. (Amazingly over-hyped based on picking-up, c/f creating, :idea: a few crumbs at the right time in the GF.) $1 million for a failed forward come very average ruckman??? Seriously?

And also remember, this was before the Bruce was moved forward, and before the arrival of Members.

Nuff Nuff, Carlscum, Paper tigers, Poodles (last decade) all challenged, but were never ever going to win a flag. And all for the same reason. Had heaps of tanked-for early picks, but wasted them by not recruiting decent key position players.

The Jailbird jumper mob are similar now. No one decent to help out a very raw Darcy Moore (whom I really rate Con :) ). No coincidence that their one year of recent glory :cry: was when Chris Dawes played his one and only decent season of footy, combining with Leroy Brown to help out Tragic Joke.

Our recruiters have learnt from the mistakes of others, and have clearly chosen to build the key positions first, then we can fill in the gaps as needed to complete the 2018 premiership team. 8-)

So come on Paddy power!!! If Marto rates you as capable of playing to the level of Tragic Joke or Tom Hawkins, then that'll do us fine. :)
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby desertsaint » Sun 16 Apr 2017 3:57pm

Paddy needs to develop - the place for that is the VFL, unless we're happy to lose games.
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Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby Dave McNamara » Sun 16 Apr 2017 3:59pm

As for Billings.

No one (that I read anyway) on here called for Nicky Dal's cuz. I also heard (read?) that the Poodles have said that they'd have taken Billings ahead of Bontempelli.

That said, Billings looks like one of those types who will improve as the team improves around him. He also seems to very much like playing on the MCG.
http://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2016/3/stk-v-coll

But best of all, neither Paddy nor Jack B are... Jack Watts. :mrgreen:
It's Dave, man. Will you open up? I got the stuff with me! -------Who?
Dave, man. Open up ------------------------------------------ -----Dave???
Yeah, Dave. ---------------------------------------------------------Dave's not here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiG1hArSps&feature=player_detailpage

Matt Finnis CEO wrote:"St Kilda is an iconic part of Melbourne which has an identifiable attitude and spirit that is really aligned with where we want to take the club. It is grounded but it is aspirational, it is eclectic, everyone belongs, and we say how do we capture that as an identity? It would be a good move on so many levels for the club."
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Dave McNamara
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Location: Slotting another one from 94.5m out. Opposition flood? Bring it on...! Keep the faith Saintas!

Re: Billings and mccartin

Postby MC Gusto » Sun 16 Apr 2017 8:54pm

Billings found some confidence today. Wasn't excellent but was very good and he seemed to grow with the game.

Would be terrific to see him
Back if up with a few in a row. That's what he needs...consistency
#1 Acres fan
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MC Gusto
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