Billings and mccartin

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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659326Post ROLS-LEE »

The OtherThommo wrote:
CURLY wrote:Gee there are some clowns around. To suggest players aren't trying shows you know nothing. I watched MCCartin and in most contests he was against two and others three. Ball always came to ground and in dangerous spots. Billings is in between at the moment but should be either deep forward or behind the footy like v Collingwood last season when he destroyed them.
Wise comments, Curls.

What stood out today was without Jack No 1 we're as slow as treacle. We had no-one to bust up the game.

We went early on our proximity to high performance, and thought we'd cement it it Brown and Carlisle in key defence posts. Having said that, Carlisle was good all day, and Brown, again, did what we acauired him to do.

But, what we've put around them is flair moderation, and now we look completely different to the 2nd half of last year, when we could turn the other sides around with speed and quick ball movement.

At the start of the last 1/4 today, it was clear we decided to kick long and deep from the midfield. And, they did.

But, for at least the first 5 forward entries, when we kicked deep, the players up forward were leading to places that said they were on another page.

There was FA cohesion for most of the day - jeeazarse it was frustrating to watch.

I appreciate people's frustrations about McCartin and Billings but, for criminey's sake, we and everybody else knows they can play, but they look lost. Who torched their football talent?

For mine, we look like a side who is currently celebrating 'apparent effort' for the sake of it, lack cohesion, the game plan seems all over the shop, and we're failing to recognise the reasons why.

If we're going to bring the likes of Carlisle and Brown on board, we have to put some speed and adventure around them - we haven't.

If we're going to bring in more hard bodied midfielders along, we have to consider the balance - we haven't.

At 5 consecutive centre bounces in the 3rd 1/4 we had no-one on the wing on the Victory Room side - but they did.

We're disorganised, generally, and who is responsible for that?
If we are disorganized then it's the coaches responsibility. Will it get scrutinized. Probably not. We won.
As for McCartin and Billings I know they are genuine talent. We are either not using Billings correctly or there are other issues. Just doesn't look interested or doesn't want to be there. When does his contract end?
As for McCartin I never said he wasn't making a contest and bringing the ball down. But once it hit the ground there was no second effort. We can't afford that playing against quality opposition.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659332Post saint-stu »

Billings appears to be lacking confidence. In his first year he would have gone for those shots outside 50 (and nailed them). Now he gives cheap handballs and short kicks to anyone else. Hopefully he can get that confidence back. His mark today shows what he can do.

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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659333Post Waltzing St Kilda »

If bringing the ball to ground is all that's required then you might as well bring in Longer and
rotate him through the ruck/forward line with Hickey.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659343Post BigMart »

Billings, like the team at times... has fallen to bits... he is a shell of the player I watched dominate VFL with arrogance and kick 5 in a qtr
And get 25 at 100% vs WC as a 19yo

Not sure what's happened with him? Was flying in the pre season


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659346Post BigMart »

Ok

Question

Who is taller... Roo or Sam Gilbert or Dylan Roberton?

And I suggest you don't bank on 'listed' heights... they are as accurate as Trumps rhetoric


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659350Post Vazelos »

I am frustrated at Mc Cartins output this year but not hitting panic stations yet but I am starting to get concerned over Billings.
4 th Year player and he is struggling to impact games and is not outstanding in any facet of the game. One top mark and he gives it off to Dunstan in a similar position and ends up missing it. He is supposed to be an elite finisher and user of the ball. If he doesn't put in some strong games by the end of the year we may have blown that pick but football can change rapidly and let's hope he can turn things around.
McCartin needs to have a 4 goal game sometime and stamp his presence more.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659353Post The OtherThommo »

ROLS-LEE wrote:
The OtherThommo wrote:
CURLY wrote:Gee there are some clowns around. To suggest players aren't trying shows you know nothing. I watched MCCartin and in most contests he was against two and others three. Ball always came to ground and in dangerous spots. Billings is in between at the moment but should be either deep forward or behind the footy like v Collingwood last season when he destroyed them.
Wise comments, Curls.

What stood out today was without Jack No 1 we're as slow as treacle. We had no-one to bust up the game.

We went early on our proximity to high performance, and thought we'd cement it it Brown and Carlisle in key defence posts. Having said that, Carlisle was good all day, and Brown, again, did what we acauired him to do.

But, what we've put around them is flair moderation, and now we look completely different to the 2nd half of last year, when we could turn the other sides around with speed and quick ball movement.

At the start of the last 1/4 today, it was clear we decided to kick long and deep from the midfield. And, they did.

But, for at least the first 5 forward entries, when we kicked deep, the players up forward were leading to places that said they were on another page.

There was FA cohesion for most of the day - jeeazarse it was frustrating to watch.

I appreciate people's frustrations about McCartin and Billings but, for criminey's sake, we and everybody else knows they can play, but they look lost. Who torched their football talent?

For mine, we look like a side who is currently celebrating 'apparent effort' for the sake of it, lack cohesion, the game plan seems all over the shop, and we're failing to recognise the reasons why.

If we're going to bring the likes of Carlisle and Brown on board, we have to put some speed and adventure around them - we haven't.

If we're going to bring in more hard bodied midfielders along, we have to consider the balance - we haven't.

At 5 consecutive centre bounces in the 3rd 1/4 we had no-one on the wing on the Victory Room side - but they did.

We're disorganised, generally, and who is responsible for that?
If we are disorganized then it's the coaches responsibility. Will it get scrutinized. Probably not. We won.
As for McCartin and Billings I know they are genuine talent. We are either not using Billings correctly or there are other issues. Just doesn't look interested or doesn't want to be there. When does his contract end?
As for McCartin I never said he wasn't making a contest and bringing the ball down. But once it hit the ground there was no second effort. We can't afford that playing against quality opposition.
On your 1st observation, R-L, I don't disagree - which doesn't help my general frustration.

On Billings, I have a theory, and it is the theory of overcomplicating the message of everything's about the team - refer to the pack mark he took today - that's a reasonable example of his talent - and then he kicked it to Dunstan, who was a similar distance from goal.

I reckon it's way too much assumption to wonder about when his contract is up, and intimate that may be influencing his performance. Surely, in this day and age, nobody is going to strive to lie doggo, just to up value on the trade market - that doesn't make sense. I would have thought those days were long gone, particularly for guys who haven't played 50 games - how do you up your 'value' by playing poorly?

On McCartin, again, I don't disagree re the 2nd efforts. But, in relation to the 1st efforts, we really are bringing the ball forward in such a way, and so slowly, and messily, that it really does make it hard for any key forward, let alone one who has yet to play many games.

I reckon the heirarchy is showing signs of being ahead of themselves, thinking we can bolster experience, while sacrificing flair and run.

And, I reckon there is too much of a celebration of 'hard work', and not enough recognition of the value of skill.

Look at the leadership group, from Geary down.

And, if you look at what was done today, with Geary going up the ground (to run with Zorko, certainly before half time), I reckon they, the brains' trust, know we have a problem.

The leadership group exemplifies how the brains' trust values effort over class. The cohort and I today mentioned 1 word a lot - "mediocrity".

I'm worried about the general direction. We need to make changes.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659365Post Linton Lodger »

CURLY wrote:Gee there are some clowns around. To suggest players aren't trying shows you know nothing. I watched MCCartin and in most contests he was against two and others three. Ball always came to ground and in dangerous spots. Billings is in between at the moment but should be either deep forward or behind the footy like v Collingwood last season when he destroyed them.
Yep. Although not rated here, it appears that opposition Coaches rate him, at least Fagen, Simpson & Longmire do. All of them obviously identified him as the key to our forward structure and sent their best defenders to him. Last week he got one of the best key defenders in the game, McGovern, in the last JLT he got Grundy. They obviously rate him. I reckon if he got the 2nd or 3rd best defender in many teams, he'd make fools of them. I'm happy with Paddy taking the best defender and either Bruce or Membrey getting the 3rd best.

Perhaps some on here could reassure opposition Coaches, who obviously worry about Paddy, that they're just being paranoid. The kid can't play!


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659377Post Griggsy »

Membrey is the definite beneficiary of mccartin taking a defender. Said earlier, he is structural. Lions had players dropping into his hole all game also.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659383Post Joffa Burns »

Linton Lodger wrote:
CURLY wrote:Gee there are some clowns around. To suggest players aren't trying shows you know nothing. I watched MCCartin and in most contests he was against two and others three. Ball always came to ground and in dangerous spots. Billings is in between at the moment but should be either deep forward or behind the footy like v Collingwood last season when he destroyed them.
Yep. Although not rated here, it appears that opposition Coaches rate him, at least Fagen, Simpson & Longmire do. All of them obviously identified him as the key to our forward structure and sent their best defenders to him. Last week he got one of the best key defenders in the game, McGovern, in the last JLT he got Grundy. They obviously rate him. I reckon if he got the 2nd or 3rd best defender in many teams, he'd make fools of them. I'm happy with Paddy taking the best defender and either Bruce or Membrey getting the 3rd best.

Perhaps some on here could reassure opposition Coaches, who obviously worry about Paddy, that they're just being paranoid. The kid can't play!
McGovern is WC intercept defender, he never goes to the no.1 opposition player as his job is to leave his man and intercept mark.
They always put him on the forward least likely to impact the scoreboard or influence the game, he is one of their attacking self named MARX brothers.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659387Post Joffa Burns »

Waltzing St Kilda wrote:If bringing the ball to ground is all that's required then you might as well bring in Longer and
rotate him through the ruck/forward line with Hickey.
+1


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659388Post Myron Gaines »

The OtherThommo wrote:
ROLS-LEE wrote:
The OtherThommo wrote:
CURLY wrote:Gee there are some clowns around. To suggest players aren't trying shows you know nothing. I watched MCCartin and in most contests he was against two and others three. Ball always came to ground and in dangerous spots. Billings is in between at the moment but should be either deep forward or behind the footy like v Collingwood last season when he destroyed them.
Wise comments, Curls.

What stood out today was without Jack No 1 we're as slow as treacle. We had no-one to bust up the game.

We went early on our proximity to high performance, and thought we'd cement it it Brown and Carlisle in key defence posts. Having said that, Carlisle was good all day, and Brown, again, did what we acauired him to do.

But, what we've put around them is flair moderation, and now we look completely different to the 2nd half of last year, when we could turn the other sides around with speed and quick ball movement.

At the start of the last 1/4 today, it was clear we decided to kick long and deep from the midfield. And, they did.

But, for at least the first 5 forward entries, when we kicked deep, the players up forward were leading to places that said they were on another page.

There was FA cohesion for most of the day - jeeazarse it was frustrating to watch.

I appreciate people's frustrations about McCartin and Billings but, for criminey's sake, we and everybody else knows they can play, but they look lost. Who torched their football talent?

For mine, we look like a side who is currently celebrating 'apparent effort' for the sake of it, lack cohesion, the game plan seems all over the shop, and we're failing to recognise the reasons why.

If we're going to bring the likes of Carlisle and Brown on board, we have to put some speed and adventure around them - we haven't.

If we're going to bring in more hard bodied midfielders along, we have to consider the balance - we haven't.

At 5 consecutive centre bounces in the 3rd 1/4 we had no-one on the wing on the Victory Room side - but they did.

We're disorganised, generally, and who is responsible for that?
If we are disorganized then it's the coaches responsibility. Will it get scrutinized. Probably not. We won.
As for McCartin and Billings I know they are genuine talent. We are either not using Billings correctly or there are other issues. Just doesn't look interested or doesn't want to be there. When does his contract end?
As for McCartin I never said he wasn't making a contest and bringing the ball down. But once it hit the ground there was no second effort. We can't afford that playing against quality opposition.
On your 1st observation, R-L, I don't disagree - which doesn't help my general frustration.

On Billings, I have a theory, and it is the theory of overcomplicating the message of everything's about the team - refer to the pack mark he took today - that's a reasonable example of his talent - and then he kicked it to Dunstan, who was a similar distance from goal.

I reckon it's way too much assumption to wonder about when his contract is up, and intimate that may be influencing his performance. Surely, in this day and age, nobody is going to strive to lie doggo, just to up value on the trade market - that doesn't make sense. I would have thought those days were long gone, particularly for guys who haven't played 50 games - how do you up your 'value' by playing poorly?

On McCartin, again, I don't disagree re the 2nd efforts. But, in relation to the 1st efforts, we really are bringing the ball forward in such a way, and so slowly, and messily, that it really does make it hard for any key forward, let alone one who has yet to play many games.

I reckon the heirarchy is showing signs of being ahead of themselves, thinking we can bolster experience, while sacrificing flair and run.

And, I reckon there is too much of a celebration of 'hard work', and not enough recognition of the value of skill.

Look at the leadership group, from Geary down.

And, if you look at what was done today, with Geary going up the ground (to run with Zorko, certainly before half time), I reckon they, the brains' trust, know we have a problem.

The leadership group exemplifies how the brains' trust values effort over class. The cohort and I today mentioned 1 word a lot - "mediocrity".

I'm worried about the general direction. We need to make changes.
Fantastic post.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659389Post BigMart »

So our #1 pick is now a role player, so Membrey gets a lesser defender?

Btw
McGovern rarely takes the main forward, in fact the opposite... he likes to play off his man, so they send him to the second or third... like Carlisle or Roberton
Grundy plays on the slowest tall... always has...

I think we can just say, he is struggling.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659394Post CURLY »

BigMart wrote:So our #1 pick is now a role player, so Membrey gets a lesser defender?

Btw
McGovern rarely takes the main forward, in fact the opposite... he likes to play off his man, so they send him to the second or third... like Carlisle or Roberton
Grundy plays on the slowest tall... always has...

I think we can just say, he is struggling.
McGovern does when McKenzie is playing. He was playing lock down on Paddy with out him.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659401Post SAAD »

Paddy will take time like Tom Hawkins. He will prove us wrong, thought he was good against West Coast last week, played a role and snagged 2 goals, today was no good...however if he just help onto a couple more marks where he was swamped with defenders it would have been a servicable game.

Jack Billings...hmmm....what position was he playing in the pre-season games? He was getting plenty of the ball...not so much at the moment and what the hell was that pass to Dunstan who shanked it?

Also...why do we do these little crappy chip kicks into the forward line..on a few occassions this happens I would rather the player just back themself in and bang it long for goal from 50 rather chipping to Bruce or whoever who marks on the boundary line on a tight angle. Anyway what do I know but we need midfielders bad. Even if we get a couple this draft it is still going to be a few years before they play in our team so we should try draft one in.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659402Post BigMart »

Fair lock down job

17 kicks, 9 marks, 3 handballs


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659407Post White Winmar »

ToT is spot on. We've gone too heavy on effort and eschewed skill and flair. What happened to McKenzie after he was declared a lock for round one based on his preseason? One who can break the lines. Why not play Long today, breaking him in against weak opposition? We scored one goal from chains starting in the defensive 50.

We wo't beat anyone other than the bottom few teams with a stat like that in the modern game. Maybe we can use Billings off half back / spare as a Goddard type weapon. Run and gun, Richo? More like stun and stutter this year. Please AR, don't become RL 2.0. Become Bevo 2.0 if you have to imitate anyone. Our loss of cohesion is puzzling. Putting things but into perspective, we should've beaten WC, which would've had us 2-1 and in the eight. Our form is not helped by our poor goal kicking. I mentioned it in another thread. 40.54, folks. Your always going to look a bit crappy with finishing like that. Fix the kicking and we'll look faster and more cohesive, but part of that involves a bit of derring do!


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659413Post Con Gorozidis »

CURLY wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Anyone comparing MCartin to Roo or Plugger is entirely delusional.
McCartin would kick 150 goals in the Bellarine League every year.
But he isn't AFL standard.
Not a good pick one.
You really do post some garbage.
We shall see.
I just cant see how he can make it. The AFL defenders are not school kids. They have him covered for size and pace and when the ball hits the ground he usually falls over.

So what if he could take 'pack marks' in the the under 18s. Means absolutely nothing in the AFL. Nothing.

I dont expect Paddy to kick goals or even take lots of marks.

My BIG concern is he falls over way too much. If he misses the mark. He falls over. He is out of the contest. The reality is most times you wont take the mark and the defender will get a fist in. That is fine. Dont panic. But the good players dont care if they miss the mark - they just keep going anyway and either win the ball back or lay or a tackle and stay involved in the play in some way.
Paddy misses a mark and falls over and that is that. Rarely stays involved.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Sun 09 Apr 2017 10:54pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659424Post repta »

Comparing Roo with McCartin is silly. It is a comparison between a CHF and FF. McCartin looks like he is carrying weight. If he is to be a full forward he need to bulk up. He is never going to have a big tank therefore his weapons need to be strength and explosion. Hawkins a reasonable comparison.
McCartin does not play tall. Therefore appears to be shorter than he is.

Billings just appears to be an average player. Am i wrong but can Billings only kick about 30m max?


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659429Post Leo.J »

Paddy has played 19 games, give the kid a break.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659434Post saint64 »

Comparing Paddy with Lockett is always going to be unfair because Plugger was a freak. He kicked 77 and 79 goals in his second and third years. Physique is probably the only real basis for comparison. Marking ability? Plugger was able to impose himself on a contest in a way that McCartin isn't able to do. I guess the recruiters were hoping that McCartin would be a G Train or a Barry Hall, but he just doesn't seem to have their strength, speed or aggression.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659438Post Con Gorozidis »

saint64 wrote:Comparing Paddy with Lockett is always going to be unfair because Plugger was a freak. He kicked 77 and 79 goals in his second and third years. Physique is probably the only real basis for comparison. Marking ability? Plugger was able to impose himself on a contest in a way that McCartin isn't able to do. I guess the recruiters were hoping that McCartin would be a G Train or a Barry Hall, but he just doesn't seem to have their strength, speed or aggression.
Big difference is that when Plugger dropped the mark and the defender spoiled he would butter up and pick it up off the ground, dodge, weave, break some tackles and bang though a snap on the run. He did this time and time and time again.
Usually the defender would fall over trying to defend and plugger would stay on his feet and burst free.

Plugger almost never fell over in a contest.
Same goes for Carey.
That is why they were guns.

McCartin, like Kosi, seems to fall over all the time. Not a good sign. Worries me.


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659441Post Griggsy »

BigMart wrote:So our #1 pick is now a role player, so Membrey gets a lesser defender?

Btw
McGovern rarely takes the main forward, in fact the opposite... he likes to play off his man, so they send him to the second or third... like Carlisle or Roberton
Grundy plays on the slowest tall... always has...

I think we can just say, he is struggling.
So is Boyd.

Unless you have a Delorian, you look forward and adapt and not back and endulge in self pity. At this point in time the bloke on 17 career games is playing a role (shock horror).


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659442Post whiskers3614 »

If we were guaranteed Paddy would have a career like Kosi's I for one would take it!


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Re: Billings and mccartin

Post: # 1659453Post Con Gorozidis »

whiskers3614 wrote:If we were guaranteed Paddy would have a career like Kosi's I for one would take it!
A witch's hat who takes the odd pack mark and boots a long goal?
But agree. Kosi actually probably better.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Sun 09 Apr 2017 11:21pm, edited 1 time in total.


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