Where are all the Lyontologists?

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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Linton Lodger » Tue 23 May 2017 7:02pm

meher baba wrote:Goodness me, this old nonsense is still going on! We had a great list under GT in 2004-06 and it generally delivered. We almost got to the GF in 2004 when I don't think we were really ready (remembering that we were absolutely thrashed by the Lions in our first final). In 2005, we also got desperately close to the GF, even though Riewoldt was out for much of the season and we lost several key players at the end of the year. In 2006 we lost Lenny and Maguire with major leg injuries (neither of which would have been preventable by any sort of off-field injury management) and Kosi was criminally assaulted onfield, and then other injury problems emerged later in the season. We still made the finals and, if we hadn't had 2 points wrongly taken from us by the AFL, would have made the top 4.

I've read endless comments on this forum about GT having wasted his glorious chances. But, whether you consider him to have been a good, bad or indifferent coach, any fair assessment would be that the club was pretty unlucky over this period: without the loss of Hayes and Kosi and the 2 points in 2006, that could have been our winning year. Of course, there are some who want to blame GT personally for all our injuries over that period: I guess they are just looking for any excuse. An extreme case is that of Luke Ball, whose injury problems were apparently all GT's fault because he played him in too many games early on in his career (this sort of comment coming from some of the same posters who continually demand that the club "play the kids"!)

As for Lyon, he too had a pretty good list: good enough in 2009 for pretty good players in Armo and Gwilt to struggle to get a game at AFL level. Players such as Goddard, Montagna (who was never a regular first team player under GT), Sam Fisher and others really came into their own under Lyon. He was able to acquire Schneider and Dempster, who both added a lot. Sure, he used some mediocre players to perform the sorts of roles that mediocre players can perform. That was the same under GT and at every other club under every other coach: since the advent of the salary cap, it is rare for any team to be able to send 22 top grade players onto the field: perhaps the Lions in the early 2000s and the Swans more recently, but, of course, they have a different salary cap to us.

It's no secret that I was a much bigger fan of GT than Lyon. I liked the approach that Butterss- GT -Waldron adopted of trying to build our club into a long-term powerhouse. It was working well when GT was removed, and then Lyon and Nettlefold took us in a different direction. I felt extremely frustrated watching clubs like Geelong and Hawthorn persist with similar longer-term approaches and reap the rewards, while we put everything into winning just one premiership, and ultimately missed out. But, having said that, I admired Lyon's coaching abilities and their results in 2009 and 2010. But, of course, we then reaped what we had sown and are only just starting to recover now.

Can't we all (except for Teflon of course) accept that GT and Lyon both had their strengths and weaknesses and then move on?


I'm sticking up for Lyon on this thread and obviously have a high regard for Lyon. I also have a high regard for Grant Thomas and what he contributed. GT did have a better list than Lyon.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Teflon » Tue 23 May 2017 7:27pm

Joffa Burns wrote:
meher baba wrote:Goodness me, this old nonsense is still going on! We had a great list under GT in 2004-06 and it generally delivered. We almost got to the GF in 2004 when I don't think we were really ready (remembering that we were absolutely thrashed by the Lions in our first final). In 2005, we also got desperately close to the GF, even though Riewoldt was out for much of the season and we lost several key players at the end of the year. In 2006 we lost Lenny and Maguire with major leg injuries (neither of which would have been preventable by any sort of off-field injury management) and Kosi was criminally assaulted onfield, and then other injury problems emerged later in the season. We still made the finals and, if we hadn't had 2 points wrongly taken from us by the AFL, would have made the top 4.

I've read endless comments on this forum about GT having wasted his glorious chances. But, whether you consider him to have been a good, bad or indifferent coach, any fair assessment would be that the club was pretty unlucky over this period: without the loss of Hayes and Kosi and the 2 points in 2006, that could have been our winning year. Of course, there are some who want to blame GT personally for all our injuries over that period: I guess they are just looking for any excuse. An extreme case is that of Luke Ball, whose injury problems were apparently all GT's fault because he played him in too many games early on in his career (this sort of comment coming from some of the same posters who continually demand that the club "play the kids"!)

As for Lyon, he too had a pretty good list: good enough in 2009 for pretty good players in Armo and Gwilt to struggle to get a game at AFL level. Players such as Goddard, Montagna (who was never a regular first team player under GT), Sam Fisher and others really came into their own under Lyon. He was able to acquire Schneider and Dempster, who both added a lot. Sure, he used some mediocre players to perform the sorts of roles that mediocre players can perform. That was the same under GT and at every other club under every other coach: since the advent of the salary cap, it is rare for any team to be able to send 22 top grade players onto the field: perhaps the Lions in the early 2000s and the Swans more recently, but, of course, they have a different salary cap to us.

It's no secret that I was a much bigger fan of GT than Lyon. I liked the approach that Butterss- GT -Waldron adopted of trying to build our club into a long-term powerhouse. It was working well when GT was removed, and then Lyon and Nettlefold took us in a different direction. I felt extremely frustrated watching clubs like Geelong and Hawthorn persist with similar longer-term approaches and reap the rewards, while we put everything into winning just one premiership, and ultimately missed out. But, having said that, I admired Lyon's coaching abilities and their results in 2009 and 2010. But, of course, we then reaped what we had sown and are only just starting to recover now.

Can't we all (except for Teflon of course) accept that GT and Lyon both had their strengths and weaknesses and then move on?


Good read and unbiased.
I dont necessarily agree with the luck conspiring against GT but your points are valid.
I do think soft tissue are not luck injuries and are poor management, but impact injuries like Maguire just happen.
Ball was an interesting one, I heard him state at a sportsmans lunch that playing through OP in his early years robbed him of pace and flexibility, so there is some truth in that.

I absolutely believe GT had an absolutely far superior list than RL and that had we got an experienced coach after Blight but follwed th rebuild through the draft path things would have been different.

As a firm supporter of RL over GT, I ponder this.
Freo offered a fortune for RL, where did GT coach and who wanted him after he got sacked?


Great post Joffa and yes in mehebabbles world GT was the messiah who was just unlucky. Nonsense and I have this direct from an Assistant Coach of Thomas's who Lyon sacked but who STILL insisted Lyon was a far superior coach and Thomas HAD the better list (his words not mine).

Facts are GT was useful for a 12 month, settle us down after Blight fiasco BUT it went to his head and he thought "I am the messiah!" As you rightly point out - how sought after was this coaching genius following his inability to get a great Saints list to a GF?? He wasn't

I think Lyon was a good coach for the moment AT THE TIME I do think he's struggled to evolve so he's not a "great" coach for mine (great coaches not only adapt but can develop and bring sides from bottom ladder positions into contention - he's never done that).

I do admire MBs efforts to re-write history though...
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby samoht » Tue 23 May 2017 7:56pm

Those who think that there are special coaches with special powers out there and are lionising Lyon - or glossing over his shortcomings ....( or lionising any coach for that matter).

He coached a team to 0-10 - an interstate team that has a huge home ground advantage - after it headed the ladder the year prior (2015).
I don't think he'll ever live that one down - nor should he.
If Freo was looking for a coach after the year they had in 2015 - there'd be plenty scrambling for that gig!

Even at our worst, when we were cellar dwellers and first started to build a team under GT with 18-year-old draft picks - did we have a 0-10 start back then?

Anyway, as I said - in reality the coaches are a victim or a beneficiary of circumstances - outside of this it's AFL coach vs AFL coach - a nil all draw.
There are no special coaches - just special circumstances every now and again that make them look special - that they benefit from.
Lyon was both a beneficiary and a victim of these circumstances - and so how is he different to any other AFL coach? He is special when he coaches a special list, and 0-10 ordinary when things aren't falling in place for him - so no different to any other AFL coach out there!
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Joffa Burns » Wed 24 May 2017 10:41pm

samoht wrote:There are no special coaches - just special circumstances every now and again that make them look special - that they benefit from.!


Wow, if there are no special coaches I wonder why the club's bother hiring and paying the big bucks.
Why don't we go back to captain coach?

You don't think Beverige was special last year?
You don't give Clarko any credit for 4 premierships?

Why not do way with the altogether.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Teflon » Wed 24 May 2017 10:55pm

Joffa Burns wrote:
samoht wrote:There are no special coaches - just special circumstances every now and again that make them look special - that they benefit from.!


Wow, if there are no special coaches I wonder why the club's bother hiring and paying the big bucks.
Why don't we go back to captain coach?

You don't think Beverige was special last year?
You don't give Clarko any credit for 4 premierships?

Why not do way with the altogether.


Yep that was crap
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby samoht » Thu 25 May 2017 10:17am

All I'm saying is it's basically a nil all draw - they are all AFl coaches.

Circumstances make them look great: 19-0 great - or ordinary: 0-10 ordinary.
Same coach, different circumstances.

Re: Beveridge and if I consider him "special".
The Bulldogs are a strong outfit - were strong at the right time - and Tom Boyd etc.. had purple patches.
Just like Shane Ellen did - or whoever the Adelaide Crow - that nobody was - that destroyed us in the GF.

That's all it takes.... a couple of players to play out of their skins -play the game of their lives at the right time.

Recruiters can make a real difference - coaches only negligible.

I'd prefer Beveridge to Lyon or most other coaches - all the same - I like his demeanour.
Last edited by samoht on Thu 25 May 2017 11:30am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Johnny Member » Thu 25 May 2017 10:37am

samoht wrote:All I'm saying is it's basically a nil all draw - they are all AFl coaches.

Circumstances make them look great 19-0 great - or ordinary 0-10 ordinary.



There is some truth to this.


A really bad coach can stuff you up badly. You can ruin a club.

But, all coaches get sacked eventually, so the question needs to be asked - are they magic men, or just good coaches at the right place at the right time?

Is Lyon a better coach now than he was last year when they were 0-10? If they play in a GF and it's his coaching that caused it - surely it's his coaching that had them at 0-10?

Was Clarkson a terrible coach when he coached Hawthorn to 3rd bottom, then 5th bottom? Or was he a great coach waiting for the right circumstances?


Was Beveridge a dud coach when he sat there and watched the Saints peg back a 10 goal deficit to beat the Bulldogs?


Several Carlton players state that Robert Walls is the worst coach they've ever had. Even though he coached them to a flag.


Paul Roos is touted as some kind of genius - but he was 2 points off being a failure. You could also argue he was 1 point off being a genuine genius and back to back premiership coach. Same goes for Worsfold.


I think Samoht is correct in the sense that the gap between a good AFL coach and a very good AFL coach is minimal. It's circumstance generally that separates them.


Hypothetical time:

If Franklin didn't get hobbled in the GF, if Hannebury didn't do his knee in the GF, if Kennedy wasn't concussed during the GF, and if Mills and McVeigh were fit - would Beveridge even be in the conversation as a being a 'great coach'? Even going back a step - if Ward didn't go off in the 1st quarter of the Prelim - would Beveridge be a great coach?

The answer in my opinion, is a 'no'.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby samoht » Thu 25 May 2017 10:46am

If Shane Ellen - a nobody - hadn't saved his best game for the GF - we'd have 2 premiership cups right now and our coach back then would now be rated alongside Jeans.

If Hamill and Everitt were fit and playing instead of Cook and Guerra (who couldn't get a kick in the finals) - we would have destroyed Port and then Brisbane in the GF and we would have a third premiership cup and GT would be our third premiership coach.

Circumstances - that's the differentiator, the modifier and the leveller - as a coach you could be 19-0 "great"one year and 0-10 "abysmal" the next (so why do we use the w/l ratio as a measure of a coach's ability - given that coaches are coaching different teams, and performing under different and ever-changing circumstances?).

Johnny Member, you have the perspicacity to see this - and I commend you for that.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Joffa Burns » Thu 25 May 2017 12:26pm

samoht wrote:If Shane Ellen - a nobody - hadn't saved his best game for the GF - we'd have 2 premiership cups right now and our coach back then would now be rated alongside Jeans.


You don't think moving Shane Ellis forward was a master stroke by Blight?
You don't think not moving Shanahan off Jarman was a mistalke by Alves - yes that is who was coach?

samoht wrote:If Hamill and Everitt were fit and playing instead of Cook and Guerra (who couldn't get a kick in the finals) - we would have destroyed Port and then Brisbane in the GF and we would have a third premiership cup and GT would be our third premiership coach.
.


OK, a bit confused there thomas, Cook was in the Alves era and Guerra was in the GT era.
If, but, maybe if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle or at least my transgender aunty.

Seriously, answer me this.
If coaching is a nil all draw and makes no difference, why is so much money and effort put into recruiting, training and sourcing and retaining the best coach available?
Why don't you just go down there and offer your services, you can be a coach, there is nothing to it!

You honestly think the Bulldogs would have won a flag under McCarthy or that the Hawks would have dominated under Schwab?

There is a massive amount that needs to come together from administration, playing group, and training, recruiting and yes coaching.

Sprout your BS all you want, the most embarrassing part of your argument is that JohnnyMember agrees with you.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Johnny Member » Thu 25 May 2017 12:51pm

Joffa Burns wrote:
samoht wrote:If Shane Ellen - a nobody - hadn't saved his best game for the GF - we'd have 2 premiership cups right now and our coach back then would now be rated alongside Jeans.


You don't think moving Shane Ellis forward was a master stroke by Blight?
You don't think not moving Shanahan off Jarman was a mistalke by Alves - yes that is who was coach?

samoht wrote:If Hamill and Everitt were fit and playing instead of Cook and Guerra (who couldn't get a kick in the finals) - we would have destroyed Port and then Brisbane in the GF and we would have a third premiership cup and GT would be our third premiership coach.
.


OK, a bit confused there thomas, Cook was in the Alves era and Guerra was in the GT era.
If, but, maybe if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle or at least my transgender aunty.

Seriously, answer me this.
If coaching is a nil all draw and makes no difference, why is so much money and effort put into recruiting, training and sourcing and retaining the best coach available?
Why don't you just go down there and offer your services, you can be a coach, there is nothing to it!

You honestly think the Bulldogs would have won a flag under McCarthy or that the Hawks would have dominated under Schwab?

There is a massive amount that needs to come together from administration, playing group, and training, recruiting and yes coaching.

Sprout your BS all you want, the most embarrassing part of your argument is that JohnnyMember agrees with you.


Was Pagan a great coach? Or in the right place at the right time?
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby samoht » Thu 25 May 2017 1:39pm

Joffa Burns wrote:

You don't think moving Shane Ellis forward was a master stroke by Blight?

You honestly think the Bulldogs would have won a flag under McCarthy or that the Hawks would have dominated under Schwab?

There is a massive amount that needs to come together from administration, playing group, and training, recruiting and yes coaching.

Sprout your BS all you want, the most embarrassing part of your argument is that JohnnyMember agrees with you.


I don't need to explain anything - that's the way I see things, with due respect, Joffa.

I mean how do you explain 2015 top-of-the-ladder Freo and 2016 Freo -I see the same seasoned coach but different circumstances! Is this BS ... or is the BS in attributing special abilities to coaches that they clearly don't have?

I'm not talking about fly-by-night AFL coaches - but seasoned AFL coaches who have had the chance to cut their teeth in the caper and have survived - the ones who have established themselves as coaches - have the right temperament, etc.. - they are the ones I'm referring to when I say it's a nil all draw - AFL coach vs AFL coach. Beveridge is an exception to this - being a new coach - but he has established himself now.
The ones that got found out early and have been shown the door don't deserve to be called AFL coaches.

I think the greatest role a coach can play and in which he can make a difference to a team's fortunes, over and above coaching (where it's basically a nil all draw) , is when the wheel turns for their team and they are coaching a strong side and their team is having success on the back of that - is to give their star players reasons to stay and to play on as a group - to look past the dollars and to stay put.

For this reason alone, Clarkson deserves to be considered a great coach. Other than that, he's an AFL coach (on pure coaching ability) and he has his peers and equals. The other AFL coaches aren't there to make up the numbers and to just twiddle their thumbs!

Re: Shane Ellis. - all the countless other games when he didn't play well and when he was well-beaten - and his opponents ran off him and rebounded at will, where he was a big negative for his side - will the Adelaide coach take responsibility for all these occasions? He just happened to play the game of his life against us in the GF - was nothing before this and was a nobody after the GF. Master stroke or a stroke of luck? A coach who is more interested in playing his next round of golf than in the team he's coaching - we can sure pick them!
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Joffa Burns » Thu 25 May 2017 3:49pm

Johnny Member wrote:
Joffa Burns wrote:
samoht wrote:If Shane Ellen - a nobody - hadn't saved his best game for the GF - we'd have 2 premiership cups right now and our coach back then would now be rated alongside Jeans.


You don't think moving Shane Ellis forward was a master stroke by Blight?
You don't think not moving Shanahan off Jarman was a mistalke by Alves - yes that is who was coach?

samoht wrote:If Hamill and Everitt were fit and playing instead of Cook and Guerra (who couldn't get a kick in the finals) - we would have destroyed Port and then Brisbane in the GF and we would have a third premiership cup and GT would be our third premiership coach.
.


OK, a bit confused there thomas, Cook was in the Alves era and Guerra was in the GT era.
If, but, maybe if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle or at least my transgender aunty.

Seriously, answer me this.
If coaching is a nil all draw and makes no difference, why is so much money and effort put into recruiting, training and sourcing and retaining the best coach available?
Why don't you just go down there and offer your services, you can be a coach, there is nothing to it!

You honestly think the Bulldogs would have won a flag under McCarthy or that the Hawks would have dominated under Schwab?

There is a massive amount that needs to come together from administration, playing group, and training, recruiting and yes coaching.

Sprout your BS all you want, the most embarrassing part of your argument is that JohnnyMember agrees with you.


Was Pagan a great coach? Or in the right place at the right time?


Well that is a question I can answer.
I lived in the north zone and went down to under 19's training at north under Pagan.
He cut me very quickly - so he was a good judge of talent or lack thereof.
I also had a lot of mates who played under 19's under him, he was extremely tough but his record was undeniable as an U19 coach, the players loved him.
Multiple GF's and premierships.

He then went to Essendon reserves frm memory and repeated the premiership cycle.

Finally he coached the North seniors to 8 or 9 prelims in a row and two premierships.

Yes he was a great coach, listen to any north player of the era speak about Denis.

Carlton were a bunch of S0ft C0cks who couldn't handle the discipline and training regime of Denis to improve or to be successful.

All the planets need to align for success, but coaching is an integral link in the chain.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Johnny Member » Thu 25 May 2017 4:05pm

Joffa Burns wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
Joffa Burns wrote:
samoht wrote:If Shane Ellen - a nobody - hadn't saved his best game for the GF - we'd have 2 premiership cups right now and our coach back then would now be rated alongside Jeans.


You don't think moving Shane Ellis forward was a master stroke by Blight?
You don't think not moving Shanahan off Jarman was a mistalke by Alves - yes that is who was coach?

samoht wrote:If Hamill and Everitt were fit and playing instead of Cook and Guerra (who couldn't get a kick in the finals) - we would have destroyed Port and then Brisbane in the GF and we would have a third premiership cup and GT would be our third premiership coach.
.


OK, a bit confused there thomas, Cook was in the Alves era and Guerra was in the GT era.
If, but, maybe if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle or at least my transgender aunty.

Seriously, answer me this.
If coaching is a nil all draw and makes no difference, why is so much money and effort put into recruiting, training and sourcing and retaining the best coach available?
Why don't you just go down there and offer your services, you can be a coach, there is nothing to it!

You honestly think the Bulldogs would have won a flag under McCarthy or that the Hawks would have dominated under Schwab?

There is a massive amount that needs to come together from administration, playing group, and training, recruiting and yes coaching.

Sprout your BS all you want, the most embarrassing part of your argument is that JohnnyMember agrees with you.


Was Pagan a great coach? Or in the right place at the right time?


Well that is a question I can answer.
I lived in the north zone and went down to under 19's training at north under Pagan.
He cut me very quickly - so he was a good judge of talent or lack thereof.
I also had a lot of mates who played under 19's under him, he was extremely tough but his record was undeniable as an U19 coach, the players loved him.
Multiple GF's and premierships.

He then went to Essendon reserves frm memory and repeated the premiership cycle.

Finally he coached the North seniors to 8 or 9 prelims in a row and two premierships.

Yes he was a great coach, listen to any north player of the era speak about Denis.

Carlton were a bunch of S0ft C0cks who couldn't handle the discipline and training regime of Denis to improve or to be successful.

All the planets need to align for success, but coaching is an integral link in the chain.


So you can't polish a turd then?
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby samoht » Thu 25 May 2017 4:19pm

Joffa Burns wrote ...

"All the planets need to align for success, but coaching is an integral link in the chain"

Indeed they do! But once the planets align - you just need an AFL coach... doesn't need to be anyone in particular.
Re: the coach being an integral link - which coach are you referring to - the 19-0 coach or the 0-10 coach?
Can't you see it's the circumstances that are the major determinant here - not a particular coach with supposed superpowers.


I meant Knobel --- not Cook -- in the 2004 final vs port Adelaide - Knobel had 22 hitouts and zero possession around the ground! Zilch, not one! One of his hitouts went straight to Wanganeen who kicked the winning goal.
What about Hamill being injured and missing the game?
Goddard was injured very early in that match.
That's what you call bad luck - and yet despite all this we only fell short by 1 goal to the side that went on to smash the Lions and win the flag.

That year we were the strongest team - We deserved to win the premiership under GT (or under any other AFL coach who happened to be coaching us).
Adverse circumstances stood between us and the flag. Our planets refused to lign up - and it wasn't the coach's fault!
Last edited by samoht on Thu 25 May 2017 5:01pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Linton Lodger » Thu 25 May 2017 4:49pm

Johnny Member wrote:
Joffa Burns wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
Joffa Burns wrote:
samoht wrote:If Shane Ellen - a nobody - hadn't saved his best game for the GF - we'd have 2 premiership cups right now and our coach back then would now be rated alongside Jeans.


You don't think moving Shane Ellis forward was a master stroke by Blight?
You don't think not moving Shanahan off Jarman was a mistalke by Alves - yes that is who was coach?

samoht wrote:If Hamill and Everitt were fit and playing instead of Cook and Guerra (who couldn't get a kick in the finals) - we would have destroyed Port and then Brisbane in the GF and we would have a third premiership cup and GT would be our third premiership coach.
.


OK, a bit confused there thomas, Cook was in the Alves era and Guerra was in the GT era.
If, but, maybe if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle or at least my transgender aunty.

Seriously, answer me this.
If coaching is a nil all draw and makes no difference, why is so much money and effort put into recruiting, training and sourcing and retaining the best coach available?
Why don't you just go down there and offer your services, you can be a coach, there is nothing to it!

You honestly think the Bulldogs would have won a flag under McCarthy or that the Hawks would have dominated under Schwab?

There is a massive amount that needs to come together from administration, playing group, and training, recruiting and yes coaching.

Sprout your BS all you want, the most embarrassing part of your argument is that JohnnyMember agrees with you.


Was Pagan a great coach? Or in the right place at the right time?


Well that is a question I can answer.
I lived in the north zone and went down to under 19's training at north under Pagan.
He cut me very quickly - so he was a good judge of talent or lack thereof.
I also had a lot of mates who played under 19's under him, he was extremely tough but his record was undeniable as an U19 coach, the players loved him.
Multiple GF's and premierships.

He then went to Essendon reserves frm memory and repeated the premiership cycle.

Finally he coached the North seniors to 8 or 9 prelims in a row and two premierships.

Yes he was a great coach, listen to any north player of the era speak about Denis.

Carlton were a bunch of S0ft C0cks who couldn't handle the discipline and training regime of Denis to improve or to be successful.

All the planets need to align for success, but coaching is an integral link in the chain.


So you can't polish a turd then?


Pagan had an absolutely non competitive list at Carlton.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Joffa Burns » Thu 25 May 2017 11:03pm

samoht wrote:Joffa Burns wrote ...

"All the planets need to align for success, but coaching is an integral link in the chain"

Indeed they do! But once the planets align - you just need an AFL coach... doesn't need to be anyone in particular.
Re: the coach being an integral link - which coach are you referring to - the 19-0 coach or the 0-10 coach?
Can't you see it's the circumstances that are the major determinant here - not a particular coach with supposed superpowers.


I meant Knobel --- not Cook -- in the 2004 final vs port Adelaide - Knobel had 22 hitouts and zero possession around the ground! Zilch, not one! One of his hitouts went straight to Wanganeen who kicked the winning goal.
What about Hamill being injured and missing the game?
Goddard was injured very early in that match.
That's what you call bad luck - and yet despite all this we only fell short by 1 goal to the side that went on to smash the Lions and win the flag.

That year we were the strongest team - We deserved to win the premiership under GT (or under any other AFL coach who happened to be coaching us).
Adverse circumstances stood between us and the flag. Our planets refused to lign up - and it wasn't the coach's fault!


OK thomas, I think coaches are critical and a great coach can be the difference from a contender to a premiership.
You think that by the time they reach that level they are all very competent and the nett result is zero-sum gain.
Each to their own, let's agree to disagree, thanks for the debate.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby samoht » Thu 25 May 2017 11:41pm

Thank you too, joffa - always enjoy a good debate - especially a civil one - as was the case, here.
All I'm saying is there's minimal difference between the AFL coaches - and it's hard to quantify. So I call it a nil all draw.

Surely you can't be disagreeing that a change in circumstances is the reason that the same coach goes from 19-0 to 0-10 or from being the coach of a top of the ladder team to the coach of a team that starts the next season 0-10 - what else could it be?

This is the major factor at play, clearly.
Last edited by samoht on Thu 25 May 2017 11:46pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Teflon » Thu 25 May 2017 11:43pm

samoht wrote:Joffa Burns wrote ...

"All the planets need to align for success, but coaching is an integral link in the chain"

Indeed they do! But once the planets align - you just need an AFL coach... doesn't need to be anyone in particular.
Re: the coach being an integral link - which coach are you referring to - the 19-0 coach or the 0-10 coach?
Can't you see it's the circumstances that are the major determinant here - not a particular coach with supposed superpowers.


I meant Knobel --- not Cook -- in the 2004 final vs port Adelaide - Knobel had 22 hitouts and zero possession around the ground! Zilch, not one! One of his hitouts went straight to Wanganeen who kicked the winning goal.
What about Hamill being injured and missing the game?
Goddard was injured very early in that match.
That's what you call bad luck - and yet despite all this we only fell short by 1 goal to the side that went on to smash the Lions and win the flag.

That year we were the strongest team - We deserved to win the premiership under GT (or under any other AFL coach who happened to be coaching us).
Adverse circumstances stood between us and the flag. Our planets refused to lign up - and it wasn't the coach's fault!


I think you're stating the obvious.
No one suggests the coach plays the game or doesn't need the cattle but that doesn't mean a great coach doesn't and can't extract more from a top list or even a mediocre one above and beyond a lessor coach
No different to great managers
Coaches after all manage people...... I've worked for great managers and morons.... there's a difference
Is the influence factor 90-10 in favour of playing group? Probably, but I'd argue that the ability to extract consistently great performances from your team is a vital 10%. Great coaches do that.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby bigred » Fri 26 May 2017 7:58am

Luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

You make your own luck.

Best not to rely on players that are just not at the top level, like many discussed above.

We have had plenty of chances over the past couple of decades and failed.

Christ some of Lyon's list management calls were absolutely horrendous. Probably as bad as you will ever see.

Which gets me back on topic. Ross Lyon can go flower himself with a cheese grater.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Johnny Member » Fri 26 May 2017 8:28am

Teflon wrote:
samoht wrote:Joffa Burns wrote ...

"All the planets need to align for success, but coaching is an integral link in the chain"

Indeed they do! But once the planets align - you just need an AFL coach... doesn't need to be anyone in particular.
Re: the coach being an integral link - which coach are you referring to - the 19-0 coach or the 0-10 coach?
Can't you see it's the circumstances that are the major determinant here - not a particular coach with supposed superpowers.


I meant Knobel --- not Cook -- in the 2004 final vs port Adelaide - Knobel had 22 hitouts and zero possession around the ground! Zilch, not one! One of his hitouts went straight to Wanganeen who kicked the winning goal.
What about Hamill being injured and missing the game?
Goddard was injured very early in that match.
That's what you call bad luck - and yet despite all this we only fell short by 1 goal to the side that went on to smash the Lions and win the flag.

That year we were the strongest team - We deserved to win the premiership under GT (or under any other AFL coach who happened to be coaching us).
Adverse circumstances stood between us and the flag. Our planets refused to lign up - and it wasn't the coach's fault!


I think you're stating the obvious.
No one suggests the coach plays the game or doesn't need the cattle but that doesn't mean a great coach doesn't and can't extract more from a top list or even a mediocre one above and beyond a lessor coach
No different to great managers
Coaches after all manage people...... I've worked for great managers and morons.... there's a difference
Is the influence factor 90-10 in favour of playing group? Probably, but I'd argue that the ability to extract consistently great performances from your team is a vital 10%. Great coaches do that.


I think the point is that the difference between the say, top 10 coaches in the comp is minimal. Therefore, it's a bit of a nil all draw when it all comes down to it.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Johnny Member » Fri 26 May 2017 8:29am

bigred wrote:Luck is where preparation meets opportunity.



But if the opportunity bobs up when you're not at your best*, and your opponent is - then you're stiff!




*Cause your good players are injured
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby samoht » Fri 26 May 2017 10:37am

Teflon wrote:Coaches after all manage people...... I've worked for great managers and morons.... there's a difference
Is the influence factor 90-10 in favour of playing group? Probably, but I'd argue that the ability to extract consistently great performances from your team is a vital 10%. Great coaches do that.


And was Lyon extracting consistently great performances from his team when Freo was having its horrendous and surprising 0-10 start last year?
Did his "greatness" take a vacation?
Could any of the other AFL coaches have extracted more? It's anyone's guess - no-one knows or can claim to know the answer to this.
I suggest that there is no real way of measuring an AFL coach's performance to compare them to their peers.. and that an AFL coach is an AFL coach.
If they are found wanting, they are out the door.
At the end of the day, they are not walking in each other's shoes, never facing the exact same challenges and not coaching the same team - so we're really guessing as to who is actually consistently extracting the most out of their teams.
So we tend to rate coaches of strong teams, that have been dealt good hands, that have recruited well, etc.. as the better coaches -we automatically attribute the success of the strong team to the coach and marvel at their w/l ratio, which is lazy and flawed thinking. The best coach might actually be the Brisbane coach - who's been dealt the bad hand.

If you or I coached Freo last year during their 0-10 run, we wouldn't have done any worse than Lyon (w/l wise) - we might have even manufactured a win with our fresh approach :wink: - but does that make any of us an AFL coach or Lyon's equal?
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sat 27 May 2017 10:56pm

100 point loss.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby SaintPav » Sat 27 May 2017 11:18pm

Same fate awaits us in a few weeks.
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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Postby Teflon » Sun 28 May 2017 12:30am

samoht wrote:
Teflon wrote:Coaches after all manage people...... I've worked for great managers and morons.... there's a difference
Is the influence factor 90-10 in favour of playing group? Probably, but I'd argue that the ability to extract consistently great performances from your team is a vital 10%. Great coaches do that.


And was Lyon extracting consistently great performances from his team when Freo was having its horrendous and surprising 0-10 start last year?
Did his "greatness" take a vacation?
Could any of the other AFL coaches have extracted more? It's anyone's guess - no-one knows or can claim to know the answer to this.
I suggest that there is no real way of measuring an AFL coach's performance to compare them to their peers.. and that an AFL coach is an AFL coach.
If they are found wanting, they are out the door.
At the end of the day, they are not walking in each other's shoes, never facing the exact same challenges and not coaching the same team - so we're really guessing as to who is actually consistently extracting the most out of their teams.
So we tend to rate coaches of strong teams, that have been dealt good hands, that have recruited well, etc.. as the better coaches -we automatically attribute the success of the strong team to the coach and marvel at their w/l ratio, which is lazy and flawed thinking. The best coach might actually be the Brisbane coach - who's been dealt the bad hand.

If you or I coached Freo last year during their 0-10 run, we wouldn't have done any worse than Lyon (w/l wise) - we might have even manufactured a win with our fresh approach :wink: - but does that make any of us an AFL coach or Lyon's equal?


You can turn all that around and ask did Lyon extract consistently great performances at St Kilda for a 19-0 season in 2009? Could you or I have done that on your logic? Is that consistently a top line performance? and did he introduce a game style (like it or loath it) that many (and I believe Malthouse and Collingwood copied and took to another level in 2010) delivered a 19-0 season and back to back flag chances?????

Ofcourse measuring an AFL coaches input to performance is hard but most in football do recognize who has decent lists Vs who has been dealt a dud hand (its why some clubs get grace because people know they dont have the cattle), regardless coaches will be judged on W/L that will continue but if you look at Lyons performance at St Kilda, the consistency over 2 years was there with a game style that changed the game (whether you like it or you dont) one would have to suggest he was a good coach (I say was....because game styles and coaches IMO have a life span....perhaps Ross is simply no longer at the top of his game?.....but he could coach.)
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