Where are all the Lyontologists?

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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658214Post Moods »

meher baba wrote:It's intriguing to watch the continuing demise of Fremantle under Lyon.

Like Saynta, I have never hidden my support for GT when he was coach. Looking back, I feel that GT's time in charge was the only time since the late 60s/early 70s that our team roamed the playing field with the swagger of champion team: the self-belief that enables us to keep taking risks and attacking our opponents. Teams with that level of self-belief - eg, what we saw from the Weagles on Saturday night - regularly crush weaker opponents, and always give the other top teams a battle. Even when they get 4-6 goals behind, they keep playing like they believe they can come back.

GT might not have been a technical wizz (although I think that he was better than some people thought), but gee he was good at instilling self-confidence in our players. However, rightly or wrongly, he lost the confidence of the board and the fans, and eventually he had to go.

Then we got Lyon, who was billed as a technical wizz. And, after the two years required to teach our players how to play his style of game, we started to do well again and made two GFs. But it was a different style of play: we strangled the attack of our opponents and half-strangled ourselves, typically winning low-scoring games by small margins. We won game after game in the regular season, but we struggled a bit in the finals. We were very lucky not to lose the PF to the Dogs in 2009 (hard though it is to believe now, we owed our win significantly to the heroic efforts of Raph Clarke in the final quarter), and then, while we were clearly a better side in the GF, we choked badly. Then, in the 2010 finals, we crushed Geelong as we should have done in 2009, but struggled again in the GF, only kept in the game by the Pies choking even worse than we did in 2009. But the Pies luckily held on for a draw, and then failed to choke in the replay and we were crushed. And then in 2011 we fell to pieces. And all through the time that Lyon was at the club, we never seemed to have anything like the swagger and confidence that we had under GT, or that top clubs like Geelong or Hawthorn have had over the past decade, or that the Bulldogs have now.


So, all in all, I have mixed feelings about Lyon. The guy can clearly coach very well within the rather tight parameters he sets himself, and he did take us to successive GFs, which is a big achievement. But I personally prefer the sort of coach who is not only a dab hand with the whiteboard, but is a leader of men: who can turn a group of talented players into the sort of unit that runs out each week expecting to dominate and destroy its opponents.

I don't know whether or not Richo will turn out to be this sort of coach. Obviously, Saturday night was very disappointing, but I for one really loved watching the way our guys had a red hot go at the Eagles. If we can actually win a few games playing the way we did, the confidence and swagger might eventually come. One can only dream.
One of the more bizarre recollections of history.

You think we didn't have any swagger in 09 when we beating teams by an average of 45 points. We won 20 games in a row. It was only in the 2nd half of that year , ironically when Kosi got a little injured and lost a bit of mojo that we started to struggle. When Kosi was up and firing we were unbeatable. Two power fwds that the opposition simply couldn't match up on. Remember Kosi kicked 50 goals or thereabouts that year - most in the first half of the year. We had mojo and were kicking scores over 100 consistently.

It was when Roo went down in 2010 we lost our scoring ability. If pple recall correctly we SMASHED the Roos in Rd1 that year. Once Roo went down our scoring options dried right up. People also forget that Roo was THE premier fwd of the competition at the time. Were we too reliant on him? Possibly. Does that fall on Lyon? Yeah to an extent. We made a GF with the likes of Robert Eddy, Mcqualter, Peake, dawson, Milne's career really didn't kick off until Lyon arrived.

When GT was in charge he had a team that coaches dream about. Roo was MVP in 04, Ball was playing without OP (remember those days) Lenny was superb, We had Gehrig AND Hamill (when he got on the park) He had access to one of the greatest mids ever in Harves. This absolute rubbish about how Lyon inherited a champion team is a crock. Harves was on his last legs and retired at the end of 08. Gehrig left, Hamill left. Sure Roo was still a star, but his knees became an issue from 09 onwards. Suddenly Milney was the player we thought he could be whereas all GT did was shitcan him (instilling confidence????)

I'm not anti either coach. I will always be grateful to GT. His was a golden era that ended too soon. Ball getting OP I suspect was because he was pushed too hard and his injury had a huge impact on our group. Ball was star in 04/05. We had shocking luck with injury in the latter half of 05 but when most of the list was able to get on the park, our team was incredible. Losing that prelim final in 05 was unforgivable though. No way Lyon would have lost that game. To say that we were average in finals under Lyon really is laughable. Yeah we struggled in the 09 prelim, but we still won it! In 2010 we didn't crush Geelong at all. We won by 3 points. Cats were raging favorites that game and somehow we won. Pies were short priced favourites for the flag. They had SMASHED everyone by huge margins in both finals and also leading into the finals. In fact we were the only team that was able to compete with them in the 2nd half of the year in that GF. It was an incredible effort. To say a team choked just doesn't make sense. If they choked they wouldn't have come out like they did in every other game and kill the opposition off in the first 15 minutes. They played how they had been, but suddenly they met a team who was prepared to engage them. Collingwood players were on record as saying that was one of the toughest games they had been involved in ever.

GT always said he would leave if a better coach came along. When one did, he didn't want to leave. GT wasn't a poor coach. In fact he was brilliant for those young blokes coming through - and in fact was perfect for what the club needed at that time. I don't hate him either. He loved the Saints and still does. He did what he thought was best for our club and gave that era of players self belief that carried right through their careers. I'm not sure why ppl have to carry on about Lyon though. He did his absolute best to help us win a flag, and as I've said before, instilled professionalism in our group like no ther coach. It's no coincidence that the two best players from each club that he coached at have both said that he's the best coach they;ve ever had


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658221Post samoht »

What we achieved in 2004 and 2005 was remarkable - GWS has taken a lot longer to finally get to where we got to in a relatively short space of time with our youngsters. Their youngsters by and large are no longer youngsters.

All I know is that if we had Freo's midfield, we'd be a top 4 side this year.

I think Lyon is running out of excuses and will soon run out of people pumping up his tyres if he doesn't start to get more out of his talented group of players.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658222Post Con Gorozidis »

Moods wrote:. I'm not sure why ppl have to carry on about Lyon though. He did his absolute best to help us win a flag, and as I've said before, instilled professionalism in our group like no ther coach. It's no coincidence that the two best players from each club that he coached at have both said that he's the best coach they;ve ever had
Hang on a minute. So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
So it means nothing at all.

When Lyon arrived at our club we had 12 AAs on the list. Two years after he left we had a spoon.
He is now driving Freo in to such a deep hole I fear they will take a decade to recover. They have the third oldest list in the comp and are probably the worst side in the comp. I dont think we can understate how bad their situation is.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658223Post The Fireman »

loris wrote:
The Fireman wrote:everyone loved him when he got us into the gf.....what happened ??
Not everyone Firey. I was never a 'In Ross We Trust' or 'Ross the Boss' groupie. I begrudgingly accepted him, as the club had appointed him coach.
I was really bored with the way we played. One could drift off for a nana nap during the game, wake up and the team would be doing 'the same old, same old, chip the ball backwards, chip the ball sideways , handball backwards, fumble the ball over the boundary line and so the score would be moribund once the Saints had hit the lead.

I was disappointed, attacking players like Roo, Dal, Milne, Gram, Lenny, Kosi et al were often kept on a leash once the side had hit the front - no risk, don't bury the opposition = boredom.

Female intuition and preservation, taught me very early on in life........... Never trust a man with shifty eyes and boyo boy Lyon's eyes are cold & shifty. IMHO :wink:
gee Loris at the time most thought he was the messiah...just the way things pan out but I have a chuckle at those who turn on a threepence :) not saying you but I think you know what I mean.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658227Post loris »

The Fireman wrote:
loris wrote:
The Fireman wrote:everyone loved him when he got us into the gf.....what happened ??
Not everyone Firey. I was never a 'In Ross We Trust' or 'Ross the Boss' groupie. I begrudgingly accepted him, as the club had appointed him coach.
I was really bored with the way we played. One could drift off for a nana nap during the game, wake up and the team would be doing 'the same old, same old, chip the ball backwards, chip the ball sideways , handball backwards, fumble the ball over the boundary line and so the score would be moribund once the Saints had hit the lead.

I was disappointed, attacking players like Roo, Dal, Milne, Gram, Lenny, Kosi et al were often kept on a leash once the side had hit the front - no risk, don't bury the opposition = boredom.

Female intuition and preservation, taught me very early on in life........... Never trust a man with shifty eyes and boyo boy Lyon's eyes are cold & shifty. IMHO :wink:
gee Loris at the time most thought he was the messiah...just the way things pan out but I have a chuckle at those who turn on a threepence :) not saying you but I think you know what I mean.
Turning on a thrupence .............. haven't heard that saying in years, Firey . It was one that was said about the great Baldock..


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658258Post SaintPav »

Johnny Member wrote:
SaintPav wrote:
White Winmar wrote:Welcome aboard for 2018, Nathan Fyfe!
I don't think we are good enough yet and it would be a huge risk. I think the club needs to hold fire on recruiting big names. Bring in value for money players on a needs basis.

We need to use the draft and keep developing our list.
?

Fyfe will only 26 at the start of next season. He'd be expected to play for another 5-6 years at his best.
His age was not my point.

If we're not good enough is one player going to make such a difference to our chances of winning a flag?

Would the cost be worth it?


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658260Post SaintPav »

Moods' recollection is basically how I remember it as well.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658264Post The Fireman »

loris wrote:
Turning on a thrupence .............. haven't heard that saying in years, Firey . It was one that was said about the great Baldock..
I still use that one Loris...I'm caught in a time warp :) and yes the Doc could.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658274Post Bluthy »

I've still got a bit of soft spot for Rosco - he almost won us a flag after all. He is a good footy strategist and knows the game well. But footy is about - evolve or die and the best coaches are willing to change and grow. Blight finally realised he couldn't go all out attack and sacrificed some for a tighter defence at Adelaide. Malthouse after a couple of premiership losses against Brissy's fab four onballers realised he needed to go back and grow his own blue-ribbon midfield from scratch.

This a golden opportunity for Lyon to develop as a coach and do a proper list build from the bottom up the way a lot of premierships coaches do. He will learn a s*** load and move out of this "career coach" mindset he keeps talking about. The head coach has to bring everyone together instead of constantly segmenting everything into players, recruiters, coach etc. Everyone has to be in it together.

But he needs the higher ups at Freo to set a clear direction for him that will push him out of his comfort zone. He has to talk to every single player on the list once a week incl the rookies. He'll actually learn who they are as human beings and not just his favourite 25 meat chess pieces. He'll realise he can have a big influence on the players by being a surrogate dad that the best coaches are. He has to be willing to open his game and sacrifice some defence for a higher scoring risk-reward game plan. Even let his players play with some creativity and not so regimented so they enjoy their footy and keep their spark throughout a long brutal year. He has to bring all the club components together, not be so surly and closed off and just focused on his own job.

And by taking a broader, long term approach, he'll feel less pressure to try and "finish off the team" with top up players to get it in premiership contention and do it properly with strong fundamentals and depth in the squad. But he's got to be willing to dig in, go backwards to go forward and do it right with patience. Play skinny kids who won't do what he wants yet but have real talent and will bond together even if they are having poor results.

The results happening this year could mean he has no choice. But unless the board and footy directors demands Ross and the club change course, it could just be chaos. Ross seems incredibly stubborn but as he says "Failure is feedback". Will he finally get the message?


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658290Post Con Gorozidis »

Check this out

April 17 2016

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-04-17/w ... rting-lyon
"We're all hurting. It's our passion. It's what we do," he said.

"We want to fight on. I think we have some better footy in us."

"We're not going to melt under the lights of a press conference at 0-4. We've got greater character than that," he said.
April 4 2017

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-04-04/l ... rror-start
"(I'm) certainly hurting. We're all hurting. We understand the journey we're on and we need to improve and we're transitioning," Lyon told Channel Seven.

"We certainly think we're better than what we showed on the weekend."

"We expected to be playing better, we don't shy away from that, but we've certainly got a growth mindset – we're not a fixed mindset – so we aim to improve."
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Wed 05 Apr 2017 12:33am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658294Post BigMart »

Probably needs to be stated that GTs teams copped a number of key injuries at important times


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658298Post skeptic »

My concerns about Lyon first started in the middle of 08 when I was starting to get sick of games in which we'd only score a handful of goals in a half.
At half time vs Sydney in round 1 2009, I was ready to spak it after we kicked a whole 4 goals and trailed.

Fortunately I kept my thoughts to myself and watched on as we didn't lose a game for a further 19 rounds.

Doubts about the coach however resurfaced in Grandfinal week in 09. Initially I was anxious about playing Geelong but figured provided we learnt from our previous mistakes earlier in the year we'd prevail.
Many would recall the famous match v the Cats at the Dome that season where we got of the leash early but Geelong pegged us back and a Michael Gardiner speccy and goal late got us over the line.

As a untrained, uninvolved footy fan, a few lessons were plain to see from that match...
1. Geelong was a super fit team that ran out matches strongly. Teams tire, they kick into overdrive. You need run.
2. Paul Chapman was the stuff nightmares were made. Everybody banged on RE Ablett, Johnson and Selwood, but Paul absolutely cut us to ribbons as he had done many times before. He needed a lot of attention.

When the teams came out, I was really miffed. I was expecting us to step up the midfield rotations... especially given the weather wasn't looking great.
Gardiner who had been a beast earlier in the season was well down on that form and was playing at a passable standard at best, as was King. Surely we didn't need both of them. Surely one goes out for a mid I figured.

Instead, IIRC we dropped Eddy (?), a midfielder, for a young Sean Dempster who at that time had no clear position on the team.

It was mind boggling (although in hindsight I wonder if perhaps he could have played on Johnson and let Baker go to Chaps).

At 3/4... I was terrified. I knew they'd finish stronger as history suggested and of course it was none other than Paul Chapman that ripped us to shreds... like he did last time. We know the rest.

I thought the team selection was poor to begin with (not enough run)... a mistake. However, as the weeks followed and it emerged that Ross Lyon as the coaches genuinely felt that Luke Ball couldn't be relied upon to run out the game (in their perception) and our team changes had actually resulted in us reducing our already undermanned midfield... I was furious.

How could that have been considered a rationale thought??? This was sheer incompetence.

It was around that time that it occurred to me that there was something else going on with Ross the Boss... this weird thing where players weren't picked on their performance but some other weird personal preference.

And so 2010 unfolded.
I watched as Andrew McQualter got gifted game after game... handful of possessions, a few tackles, the odd goal whereas other players like Steven and Armo who seemed to and on occasion produced such better games were dropped quickly after a mistake or a bad performance.
But Mini just kept kept getting picked. I think he played 23 of a possible 24 games (or something like that) and had maybe 3 good games for the season... it was really mediocre.

(To qualify that, I had absolutely no problems with Andrew McQualter's spot in the team in the 09 season... earned it and played well all year... just saying 2010 was a different story).

I know some of those potential replacements in Armo and Jack had injury issues later in the season but we didn't seem to want to try and develop anyone else...
Instead we had a handful of players that were in really bad form that were seemingly gifted games. Mini was one, Dempster wouldn't find his grove until 2011, Gram was seriously under done at the business end of the season, Eddy was inconsequential all year... even Farren Ray was struggling quite a bit by the end.

Of course we had stuff all replacements because we didn't develop any though I would point out that come finals time, as said by David Mission in his book, with the exception of Ralph Clarke, we had almost a full list of players to chose from.

The 2010 GF for me was the biggest screw up of all time... I hated it.
There were 5 players in that team I was positive would contribute very little on the day: the aforementioned McQualter, Dempster, Eddy, Ray and Gram (who seriously looked injured and was a shell of himself).
Now credit where credit is due, Ray did a great tagging job in the second half and Mini really hit the tackles after half time too but in a Grandfinal that was ultimately a draw, where we were carried by the Herculean performances of Goddard and Hayes... out of 5 players we got a good defensive half from 2 of them.

That was it.

And as 2011 rolled on, it just got weirder and weirder. The selections just weren't making sense.

Low and behold Lyon left and then McEvoy and Armitage produced their best seasons with us to that point with Ben in particular taking leaps and bounds after getting a consistent run at in the second half of 2011 when all the other rucks went down... Steven and Dempster built up from their solid form the season earlier and I may be wrong but I feel like Geary cemented his spot too as Stanley started showing more too.

Then of course there was Tom "I can't play more than 1 game in a row" Lynch who was showing great signs at Adelaide...


I guess the point of all of this is that IMO the warning signs were there the whole time that something wasn't quite right with Mr. Lyon... there was this lack of objectivity that was really disturbing.

It wasn't just that he wanted to pick particular types of players that could execute his game plan... that I could understand. He just didn't seem to value the idea that you could develop and mould raw talent into something better. When it came to choosing a workman like player ala an Eddy, Mini, Jones (to a lesser degree) over a more talented guy like say Armitage who perhaps clearly demonstrates greater ability but was not as committed, he always went with the former.

This was a mistake in my opinion.

Whilst I respect that the RL mantra was he respected guys like Lenny that were 100% dedicated all the time and that's what it takes to be the best... this way of thinking is flawed.
Geelong and Collingwood didn't beat us in the GFs because they worked harder than we did, they won because ultimately their players played better on the day. There aren't many grand finals where the best team doesn't win. There aren't many premiers that don't deserve it.

And IMO this is where RL falls down again and again. We're seeing it at Freo now too... there is a big group of players in that best 22 and more on the total list that really shouldn't be there anymore.

Me personally, I think w/o a shadow of a doubt RL's win/loss ration is the most overrated "false stat" in football. Gifted two lists that had played in pre-lims 2 years before... gifted teams that had multiple players that were amongst the best of their entire generation... Hayes, Riewoldt, Monty, Goddard, Sandilands, Pavlich, Fyfe etc...
Made to look a lot better than he is


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658299Post skeptic »

Also, please forgive me if I've gotten a bit confused with which players hit their straps when around the 2009-12 era. I try not to think about it too much anymore and am sure I've made some mistakes


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658300Post Enrico_Misso »

BigMart wrote:Probably needs to be stated that GTs teams copped a number of key injuries at important times
That is a succinct 17 word summary of the GT era.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658310Post White Winmar »

[quote="skeptic"]My concerns about Lyon first started in the middle of 08 when I was starting to get sick of games in which we'd only score a handful of goals in a half.
At half time vs Sydney in round 1 2009, I was ready to spak it after we kicked a whole 4 goals and trailed.

Fortunately I kept my thoughts to myself and watched on as we didn't lose a game for a further 19 rounds.

Doubts about the coach however resurfaced in Grandfinal week in 09. Initially I was anxious about playing Geelong but figured provided we learnt from our previous mistakes earlier in the year we'd prevail.
Many would recall the famous match v the Cats at the Dome that season where we got of the leash early but Geelong pegged us back and a Michael Gardiner speccy and goal late got us over the line.

As a untrained, uninvolved footy fan, a few lessons were plain to see from that match...
1. Geelong was a super fit team that ran out matches strongly. Teams tire, they kick into overdrive. You need run.
2. Paul Chapman was the stuff nightmares were made. Everybody banged on RE Ablett, Johnson and Selwood, but Paul absolutely cut us to ribbons as he had done many times before. He needed a lot of attention.

When the teams came out, I was really miffed. I was expecting us to step up the midfield rotations... especially given the weather wasn't looking great.
Gardiner who had been a beast earlier in the season was well down on that form and was playing at a passable standard at best, as was King. Surely we didn't need both of them. Surely one goes out for a mid I figured.

Instead, IIRC we dropped Eddy (?), a midfielder, for a young Sean Dempster who at that time had no clear position on the team.

It was mind boggling (although in hindsight I wonder if perhaps he could have played on Johnson and let Baker go to Chaps).

At 3/4... I was terrified. I knew they'd finish stronger as history suggested and of course it was none other than Paul Chapman that ripped us to shreds... like he did last time. We know the rest.

I thought the team selection was poor to begin with (not enough run)... a mistake. However, as the weeks followed and it emerged that Ross Lyon as the coaches genuinely felt that Luke Ball couldn't be relied upon to run out the game (in their perception) and our team changes had actually resulted in us reducing our already undermanned midfield... I was furious.

How could that have been considered a rationale thought??? This was sheer incompetence.

It was around that time that it occurred to me that there was something else going on with Ross the Boss... this weird thing where players weren't picked on their performance but some other weird personal preference.

And so 2010 unfolded.
I watched as Andrew McQualter got gifted game after game... handful of possessions, a few tackles, the odd goal whereas other players like Steven and Armo who seemed to and on occasion produced such better games were dropped quickly after a mistake or a bad performance.
But Mini just kept kept getting picked. I think he played 23 of a possible 24 games (or something like that) and had maybe 3 good games for the season... it was really mediocre.

(To qualify that, I had absolutely no problems with Andrew McQualter's spot in the team in the 09 season... earned it and played well all year... just saying 2010 was a different story).

I know some of those potential replacements in Armo and Jack had injury issues later in the season but we didn't seem to want to try and develop anyone else...
Instead we had a handful of players that were in really bad form that were seemingly gifted games. Mini was one, Dempster wouldn't find his grove until 2011, Gram was seriously under done at the business end of the season, Eddy was inconsequential all year... even Farren Ray was struggling quite a bit by the end.

Of course we had stuff all replacements because we didn't develop any though I would point out that come finals time, as said by David Mission in his book, with the exception of Ralph Clarke, we had almost a full list of players to chose from.

The 2010 GF for me was the biggest screw up of all time... I hated it.
There were 5 players in that team I was positive would contribute very little on the day: the aforementioned McQualter, Dempster, Eddy, Ray and Gram (who seriously looked injured and was a shell of himself).
Now credit where credit is due, Ray did a great tagging job in the second half and Mini really hit the tackles after half time too but in a Grandfinal that was ultimately a draw, where we were carried by the Herculean performances of Goddard and Hayes... out of 5 players we got a good defensive half from 2 of them.

That was it.

And as 2011 rolled on, it just got weirder and weirder. The selections just weren't making sense.

Low and behold Lyon left and then McEvoy and Armitage produced their best seasons with us to that point with Ben in particular taking leaps and bounds after getting a consistent run at in the second half of 2011 when all the other rucks went down... Steven and Dempster built up from their solid form the season earlier and I may be wrong but I feel like Geary cemented his spot too as Stanley started showing more too.

Then of course there was Tom "I can't play more than 1 game in a row" Lynch who was showing great signs at Adelaide...


I guess the point of all of this is that IMO the warning signs were there the whole time that something wasn't quite right with Mr. Lyon... there was this lack of objectivity that was really disturbing.

It wasn't just that he wanted to pick particular types of players that could execute his game plan... that I could understand. He just didn't seem to value the idea that you could develop and mould raw talent into something better. When it came to choosing a workman like player ala an Eddy, Mini, Jones (to a lesser degree) over a more talented guy like say Armitage who perhaps clearly demonstrates greater ability but was not as committed, he always went with the former.

This was a mistake in my opinion.

Whilst I respect that the RL mantra was he respected guys like Lenny that were 100% dedicated all the time and that's what it takes to be the best... this way of thinking is flawed.
Geelong and Collingwood didn't beat us in the GFs because they worked harder than we did, they won because ultimately their players played better on the day. There aren't many grand finals where the best team doesn't win. There aren't many premiers that don't deserve it.

And IMO this is where RL falls down again and again. We're seeing it at Freo now too... there is a big group of players in that best 22 and more on the total list that really shouldn't be there anymore.

Me personally, I think w/o a shadow of a doubt RL's win/loss ration is the most overrated "false stat" in football. Gifted two lists that had played in pre-lims 2 years before... gifted teams that had multiple players that were amongst the best of their entire generation... Hayes, Riewoldt, Monty, Goddard, Sandilands, Pavlich, Fyfe etc...
Made to look a lot better than he is[/quote]
A sadly accurate summation of the lagacy of Ross.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658311Post saintbob »

dragit wrote:I think he has conceded the year already, vowing to "play this kids" from now on. LOL.
Yep and I bet his little boy Zac continues to play at the expense of a kid that could actually get more than 5 disposals a game and not get 5 goals kicked on him!!!

I agree the best thing that happened to us was that prick leaving, and thank god he took his pathetic boy Zac with him.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658316Post Toy Saint »

Hopefully he'll replace Buckley at Collingwood


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658333Post saynta »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
Moods wrote:. I'm not sure why ppl have to carry on about Lyon though. He did his absolute best to help us win a flag, and as I've said before, instilled professionalism in our group like no ther coach. It's no coincidence that the two best players from each club that he coached at have both said that he's the best coach they;ve ever had
Hang on a minute. So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
So it means nothing at all.

When Lyon arrived at our club we had 12 AAs on the list. Two years after he left we had a spoon.
He is now driving Freo in to such a deep hole I fear they will take a decade to recover. They have the third oldest list in the comp and are probably the worst side in the comp. I dont think we can understate how bad their situation is.

Exactly Con.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658334Post saynta »

saintbob wrote:
dragit wrote:I think he has conceded the year already, vowing to "play this kids" from now on. LOL.
Yep and I bet his little boy Zac continues to play at the expense of a kid that could actually get more than 5 disposals a game and not get 5 goals kicked on him!!!

I agree the best thing that happened to us was that prick leaving, and thank god he took his pathetic boy Zac with him.
Couldn't disagree with you there mate.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658405Post markp »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
Moods wrote:. I'm not sure why ppl have to carry on about Lyon though. He did his absolute best to help us win a flag, and as I've said before, instilled professionalism in our group like no ther coach. It's no coincidence that the two best players from each club that he coached at have both said that he's the best coach they;ve ever had
Hang on a minute. So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
So it means nothing at all.
You say he's better than GT, Watters, (and Mark Harvey)... so apart from Jeans, who would you say we've had who's been better?

Would you agree he is by definition the second most successful coach we've ever had?


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658407Post skeptic »

markp wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:
Moods wrote:. I'm not sure why ppl have to carry on about Lyon though. He did his absolute best to help us win a flag, and as I've said before, instilled professionalism in our group like no ther coach. It's no coincidence that the two best players from each club that he coached at have both said that he's the best coach they;ve ever had
Hang on a minute. So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
So it means nothing at all.
You say he's better than GT, Watters, (and Mark Harvey)... so apart from Jeans, who would you say we've had who's been better?

Would you agree he is by definition the second most successful coach we've ever had?
Statistically I'm sure he is.

I can't call a coach that has squandered 2 premierships successful (don't really know Freo so cant comment much there).

With us, I think RL underachieved more than any other coach I know


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658448Post Con Gorozidis »

I didn't say he was better than GT.
Just saying a player who had GT at age 19 to 23 might have a fonder view of Lyon because they played under Lyon aged 24 to 28 when they were a better and more senior player.
We had 12 AA players already when Lyon arrived.
So relative to talent. With the statistics adjusted for available talent then Lyon wasn't that good.
I reckon Alves was better given the resources he had available.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658450Post SaintPav »

Con, it is time to declare your personal gripe against RL.

Fess up.

What us it?


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658458Post markp »

So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
You did say better.

And of course he is... how many offers did gt get after we sacked him?

We (made and) lost consecutive grand finals by a toe-poke and a bad bounce, it's not possible to get any closer and not win... Totally heartbreaking yes, but to blame the coach and treat it almost as an inevitability because of his tactics, personality, style (etc), points to sourgrapes more than a reasonable conclusion.


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Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658464Post Con Gorozidis »

markp wrote:
So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
You did say better.

And of course he is... how many offers did gt get after we sacked him?

We (made and) lost consecutive grand finals by a toe-poke and a bad bounce, it's not possible to get any closer and not win... Totally heartbreaking yes, but to blame the coach and treat it almost as an inevitability because of his tactics, personality, style (etc), points to sourgrapes more than a reasonable conclusion.
No no i didnt.
It was in the context of a reply to someone who said that some players have said he was the best coach they had had.
So i was saying - in their view - he was better than GT. Which I then explained away because they probably copped Lyon at the peak of their career. I never said I though Lyon was better. I said THEY might see him as better because it was a fond time. E.g Nathan Thompson probably thought Peter Schwabb was a better coach than Clarko.
Lyon had offers because people thought he was good at that time. Based on his 2005 game plan.
The question is is Lyon any good in 2017?
The answer is a clear NO.

'Toe poke' and 'bad bounce'. Yeah right. Geelong were all over us in the last quarter in 2009 and if you can only score 68 points you are asking to be beaten.
That was Lyon's s*** game plan. In 2010 we also managed - you guessed it 68 points!
When that is your game plan you always leave the door open. When you have an inadequate game plan - you always leave the door open.
The truth is that the Swans won a GF in 2005 scoring only 58 points.
Lyon felt he deserved the credit for 2005 and then thought if he could repeat that victory in his own right - he would get the credit he deserved.
2005 - 58
2009 - 68
2010 - 68/52

In 2013 Freo only scored 62 points!

they are his GF scores.

In five GFs he was involved with he averaged 61 points. He never topped 70 points.

So no - I dont accept the nonsense about the 'toe poke' and the 'bad bounce'.

His 2005 game plan was good in 2005 but was crap in 09, 10 and 13.

But if you want to carry on believing he was some guru. Some messiah. Some L Ron Hubbard of Lyontology.

Go ahead.

But how do you explain the last 18 months and how are you going to explain the next 18 months? More 'bad luck'?


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