Where are all the Lyontologists?

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
st.byron
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10598
Joined: Tue 14 Jun 2005 7:04pm
Location: North
Has thanked: 1011 times
Been thanked: 1055 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658477Post st.byron »

Con Gorozidis wrote: When that is your game plan you always leave the door open. When you have an inadequate game plan - you always leave the door open.
The truth is that the Swans won a GF in 2005 scoring only 58 points.
Lyon felt he deserved the credit for 2005 and then thought if he could repeat that victory in his own right - he would get the credit he deserved.
2005 - 58
2009 - 68
2010 - 68/52

In 2013 Freo only scored 62 points!

they are his GF scores.

In five GFs he was involved with he averaged 61 points. He never topped 70 points.

If you look at the scores from all his finals, he's yet to top 100 points from memory. Maybe once just over. Can't be bothered researching it now. But there are lots of sub 80 and numerous sub 70 scores in there.


User avatar
Con Gorozidis
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23532
Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658480Post Con Gorozidis »

st.byron wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote: When that is your game plan you always leave the door open. When you have an inadequate game plan - you always leave the door open.
The truth is that the Swans won a GF in 2005 scoring only 58 points.
Lyon felt he deserved the credit for 2005 and then thought if he could repeat that victory in his own right - he would get the credit he deserved.
2005 - 58
2009 - 68
2010 - 68/52

In 2013 Freo only scored 62 points!

they are his GF scores.

In five GFs he was involved with he averaged 61 points. He never topped 70 points.

If you look at the scores from all his finals, he's yet to top 100 points from memory. Maybe once just over. Can't be bothered researching it now. But there are lots of sub 80 and numerous sub 70 scores in there.
Well he trails Rocket Eade, John Northey, Bill Stephen and Terry Wallace as the longest serving coaches never to win a flag. If he is lucky he will overtake Wallace for games coached. He wont ever get near Eade or even Northey.

If that makes him some kind of guru - well we must have very low standards at the Saints.

Freo are a basket case and surely the buck stops with Ross? What is his latest excuse?


User avatar
skeptic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 16407
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
Has thanked: 3394 times
Been thanked: 2655 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658488Post skeptic »

markp wrote:
So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
You did say better.

And of course he is... how many offers did gt get after we sacked him?

We (made and) lost consecutive grand finals by a toe-poke and a bad bounce, it's not possible to get any closer and not win... Totally heartbreaking yes, but to blame the coach and treat it almost as an inevitability because of his tactics, personality, style (etc), points to sourgrapes more than a reasonable conclusion.
Lyon didn't have too many vocal detractors here in 2009... but critics started to emerge in 2010. Not a heap but there were some critical posters on here. It can't be sour grapes if it doesn't occur after the fact.


User avatar
White Winmar
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5014
Joined: Tue 02 Jun 2009 10:02pm

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658496Post White Winmar »

Lost 2009 from the box. Simple. He choked. We should've won that by the length of the straight. Doing a great job at Freo.


I started with nothing and I've got most of it left!
User avatar
Joffa Burns
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7081
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 5:48pm
Has thanked: 1871 times
Been thanked: 1570 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658511Post Joffa Burns »

White Winmar wrote:Lost 2009 from the box. Simple. He choked. We should've won that by the length of the straight. Doing a great job at Freo.
Disagree, we kick straight in the first half and we win comfortably.
Easy misses cost us, from memory it was 7.5 to 7.12 at half time and guys like Schnieds missed sitters from the top of the square. Some players choked in front of goal and you can't blame that on the coach.

I remember saying to my friends at half time we have blown this with our kicking.

He did stuff up not putting more minutes into Luke Ball in the last 1/4.

FWIW I loved Ross at the saints and he was brilliant in his first three years at Freo, but the game looks to have passed him by now and he doesn't seem to be able to adjust his teams playing style.

I think he's cooked!


Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
saynta
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 22436
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 3:53pm
Has thanked: 8355 times
Been thanked: 3703 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658522Post saynta »

Cooked? He's f****** deep fried. Burnt to a crisp.


User avatar
markp
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 15417
Joined: Mon 26 Mar 2007 4:22pm
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 81 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658567Post markp »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
markp wrote:
So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
You did say better.

And of course he is... how many offers did gt get after we sacked him?

We (made and) lost consecutive grand finals by a toe-poke and a bad bounce, it's not possible to get any closer and not win... Totally heartbreaking yes, but to blame the coach and treat it almost as an inevitability because of his tactics, personality, style (etc), points to sourgrapes more than a reasonable conclusion.
No no i didnt.
It was in the context of a reply to someone who said that some players have said he was the best coach they had had.
So i was saying - in their view - he was better than GT. Which I then explained away because they probably copped Lyon at the peak of their career. I never said I though Lyon was better. I said THEY might see him as better because it was a fond time. E.g Nathan Thompson probably thought Peter Schwabb was a better coach than Clarko.
Lyon had offers because people thought he was good at that time. Based on his 2005 game plan.
The question is is Lyon any good in 2017?
The answer is a clear NO.

'Toe poke' and 'bad bounce'. Yeah right. Geelong were all over us in the last quarter in 2009 and if you can only score 68 points you are asking to be beaten.
That was Lyon's s*** game plan. In 2010 we also managed - you guessed it 68 points!
When that is your game plan you always leave the door open. When you have an inadequate game plan - you always leave the door open.
The truth is that the Swans won a GF in 2005 scoring only 58 points.
Lyon felt he deserved the credit for 2005 and then thought if he could repeat that victory in his own right - he would get the credit he deserved.
2005 - 58
2009 - 68
2010 - 68/52

In 2013 Freo only scored 62 points!

they are his GF scores.

In five GFs he was involved with he averaged 61 points. He never topped 70 points.

So no - I dont accept the nonsense about the 'toe poke' and the 'bad bounce'.

His 2005 game plan was good in 2005 but was crap in 09, 10 and 13.

But if you want to carry on believing he was some guru. Some messiah. Some L Ron Hubbard of Lyontology.

Go ahead.

But how do you explain the last 18 months and how are you going to explain the next 18 months? More 'bad luck'?
Nah.

His s*** game plan got us into consecutive grand finals and within victory with seconds left in each.

Joffa Burns is right about our kicking and likely right about him being done, but to carry on bitterly about him 'costing us two flags' is silly.


User avatar
markp
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 15417
Joined: Mon 26 Mar 2007 4:22pm
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 81 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658571Post markp »

skeptic wrote:
markp wrote:
So he is a better coach than GT, Watters and Mark Harvey? So what?
Add to that it is common knowledge that players say the best coach they 'ever had' is the coach they had when they were at their peak as a player i.e. 25-29 years old.
You did say better.

And of course he is... how many offers did gt get after we sacked him?

We (made and) lost consecutive grand finals by a toe-poke and a bad bounce, it's not possible to get any closer and not win... Totally heartbreaking yes, but to blame the coach and treat it almost as an inevitability because of his tactics, personality, style (etc), points to sourgrapes more than a reasonable conclusion.
Lyon didn't have too many vocal detractors here in 2009... but critics started to emerge in 2010. Not a heap but there were some critical posters on here. It can't be sour grapes if it doesn't occur after the fact.
And of those 'some', how many gt fanbois?


loris
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4505
Joined: Tue 22 Jan 2008 5:41pm
Has thanked: 324 times
Been thanked: 397 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658576Post loris »

Freo fans getting upset. I was at a cafe this morning, perchance a time to read the local WA daily newspaper.

Reading the 'Letters To The Editor' section, and here was a letter from a Feo member threading to cancel his membership if Ross Lyon selected Zac Dawson this week.

Heavens to Betsy, Freo fans aren't just venting their spleen on talk back radio and sports sections of the papers. They are now writing 'save us from Ross' letters to the Editor of the WA daily paper. - what next a full page ad taken out by disgruntled Freo cashed up members in the Business Review section????

The 'tom, tom drums getting louder, and louder!!!!!


Sainternist
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11267
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 12:57am
Location: South of Heaven
Has thanked: 1267 times
Been thanked: 430 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658578Post Sainternist »

I hear Scotty Watters is looking to coach AFL level again. He played a couple of seasons with the Dockers, so would know the ropes of the anchor :lol:


Curb your enthusiasm - you’re a St.Kilda supporter!!
Image
Moods
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4755
Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009 3:05pm
Has thanked: 309 times
Been thanked: 414 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658603Post Moods »

Joffa Burns wrote:
White Winmar wrote:Lost 2009 from the box. Simple. He choked. We should've won that by the length of the straight. Doing a great job at Freo.
Disagree, we kick straight in the first half and we win comfortably.
Easy misses cost us, from memory it was 7.5 to 7.12 at half time and guys like Schnieds missed sitters from the top of the square. Some players choked in front of goal and you can't blame that on the coach.

I remember saying to my friends at half time we have blown this with our kicking.

He did stuff up not putting more minutes into Luke Ball in the last 1/4.

FWIW I loved Ross at the saints and he was brilliant in his first three years at Freo, but the game looks to have passed him by now and he doesn't seem to be able to adjust his teams playing style.

I think he's cooked!
Agree with all of this. Well put Joffa


User avatar
SaintPav
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18163
Joined: Wed 16 Jun 2010 9:24pm
Location: Alma Road
Has thanked: 1457 times
Been thanked: 1829 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658610Post SaintPav »

Karma, biatches...


Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
saintspremiers
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 25303
Joined: Tue 01 Feb 2005 4:25pm
Location: Trump Tower
Has thanked: 142 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658613Post saintspremiers »

Hack Dawson has been dropped.

Suck it up Ross The Toss!


i am Melbourne Skies - sometimes Blue Skies, Grey Skies, even Partly Cloudy Skies.
User avatar
skeptic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 16407
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
Has thanked: 3394 times
Been thanked: 2655 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658668Post skeptic »

markp wrote:
Nah.

His s*** game plan got us into consecutive grand finals and within victory with seconds left in each.

Joffa Burns is right about our kicking and likely right about him being done, but to carry on bitterly about him 'costing us two flags' is silly.
These discussions always seem to go into the extreme in that it was either the players or the coach whereas in all actuality I think most ppl understand that both factors contributed.

I absolutely accept that had we have kicked straighter in the first half, we pbly would have won.

Here's my question, do you think he coached well in the 09 Grandfinal?


User avatar
skeptic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 16407
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
Has thanked: 3394 times
Been thanked: 2655 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658669Post skeptic »

markp wrote:
And of those 'some', how many gt fanbois?
It's hard to remember. Whilst I personally liked GT, I wasn't overly displeased he left when he did. He seemed cooked IMO and there were some very serious concerns about the direction he was taking the club... the constant saga btw him and Butters was getting a bit much too.

Personally, I don't feel strongly that that the implied connection was particularly strong


User avatar
markp
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 15417
Joined: Mon 26 Mar 2007 4:22pm
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 81 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658677Post markp »

skeptic wrote:
markp wrote:
Nah.

His s*** game plan got us into consecutive grand finals and within victory with seconds left in each.

Joffa Burns is right about our kicking and likely right about him being done, but to carry on bitterly about him 'costing us two flags' is silly.
These discussions always seem to go into the extreme in that it was either the players or the coach whereas in all actuality I think most ppl understand that both factors contributed.

I absolutely accept that had we have kicked straighter in the first half, we pbly would have won.

Here's my question, do you think he coached well in the 09 Grandfinal?
It's a blur to me. Have never watched a replay, didnt read match reports. Never will.

But as with the players, a few extra points that day and he's a legend. And he evidently coached well enough and they evidently played well enough to get that close (though not well enough to win).


User avatar
skeptic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 16407
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
Has thanked: 3394 times
Been thanked: 2655 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658685Post skeptic »

Fair enough.

In the moment, players can only do what they can do. Nobody kicks for goal planning to miss.

In the case of the coach, I tend to believe they have greater control over the things they can control then the players do. For that reason I'm harsher on him then the players.

Anyway, we're at the same impasse that we always reach in this conversation.

On match day in 09, I believe that the Saints dominated general play but failed to capitalise on the board and that Lyon was out coached after quarter time. He made some really bad mistakes in the second half and his preparation for the game was quite poor too.

In the 2010, I believe that he actually coached really well on the day. He had IMO assembled the strongest set of 12-16 starting 22 players in the league. However, his utter reluctance to develop other players left us with much weaker bottom half and that we were ultimately beaten (or drew) by a better team despite clearly having the 2 best players on the day.

This set of opinions/observations are how things unfolded in my eyes... it has nothing to do with preferences or bitterness. I don't rate RL as a coach as highly as others because I think he was given more to start with than most and made a lot of big mistakes.

Anyway, good day sir


sunsaint
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 5212
Joined: Mon 07 Aug 2006 9:50pm
Location: Queensland - Beautiful one day ... you know the rest
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 318 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658892Post sunsaint »

Just a note on GT from my memory as poor as it recalling exact scores and margins
When he took over as coach the young side was getting clobbered by some pretty big margins
It's not a coaching master stroke but I do recall many games were we had to play a 18 man defensive flood
2001(?) we traded for some older players Gehrig and Hammill and that gave kids Roo, Kosi, and Milne guidance and experience around them and we turned into a goal kicking offensive side. Play to your strengths I say, and things turned around markedly by 2003/04. It is also why I think some judge GT harshly as a no plan coach given who replaced him, Lyon, schooled in the dour defensive style of Sydney at the time.


Seeya
*************
User avatar
saintbrat
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 44575
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 4:11pm
Location: saints zone
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 188 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658905Post saintbrat »

article in todays Herald sun- found the link
https://thewest.com.au/sport/afl/why-su ... b88432845z

But Peter Sumich speaking on how he had to leave Freo as an assistant last year before he lost his lvoe for the game.

Ross still churns through the assistants
Last edited by saintbrat on Sat 08 Apr 2017 5:27pm, edited 1 time in total.


StReNgTh ThRoUgH LoYaLtY
Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly..!!
Image
MEMBERSHIP 2014 31,134 Membership 2015 32,746 MEMBERSHIP 2016 - 38,101
MEMBERSHIP 2017 42,095 , Membership 2018 46,998
MEMBERSHIP 2019 43,106 http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 9#p1816890
MEMBERSHIP 2020 48,588 http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100107
saynta
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 22436
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 3:53pm
Has thanked: 8355 times
Been thanked: 3703 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658907Post saynta »

saintbrat wrote:article in todays Herald sun- can't find link yet

But Peter Sumich speaking on how he had to leave Freo as an assistant last year before he lost his lvoe for the game.

Ross still churns through the assistants
Not a person person our tosser lyin.


User avatar
skeptic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 16407
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
Has thanked: 3394 times
Been thanked: 2655 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658925Post skeptic »

The thing is, from where I sit Lyon took two good lists to grand finals. That doesn't seem like that great an indicator of success to me compared to say a guy like Bevridge who sealed a Bulldogs flag with a list that many say wasn't the best that year (and I personally agree with that).

That to me is an example of how a coach demonstrated some mastery.

Then you look at something like Clarkson, who developed a good list and then developed into arguably the greatest of all time.


Right now RL does not have a good list, and he is getting the type of results you'd expect from such an average list... if he is a master coach, shouldn't he be doing better?


chook23
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7213
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:31am
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658935Post chook23 »

Egg on face of many posters in this thread
......


saint4life
User avatar
Linton Lodger
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon 18 Aug 2014 2:07pm
Has thanked: 86 times
Been thanked: 256 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658936Post Linton Lodger »

Here I am, Lyon was one of our great Coaches.

Gee he gave poor old Luke Beveridge a real lesson tonight, bashed up his flukey Premiership team and exposed their soft underbelly. Despite some real difficult times, his players still appear to be playing for him, as they did at St Kilda but didn't for his successor.

Who to envy now? Richmond?


User avatar
skeptic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 16407
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
Has thanked: 3394 times
Been thanked: 2655 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658937Post skeptic »

chook23 wrote:Egg on face of many posters in this thread
......
Seriously man?

No one ever doubted that the man had some ability and it was a good win but it hardly proves he is indisputably the master coach and that any criticisms of him are not valid.

Let's at least see the season out before we ooh and aaah his 1-2 start to the season


User avatar
Spinner
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8502
Joined: Sat 02 Dec 2006 3:40pm
Location: Victoria
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Where are all the Lyontologists?

Post: # 1658938Post Spinner »

skeptic wrote:
chook23 wrote:Egg on face of many posters in this thread
......
Seriously man?

No one ever doubted that the man had some ability and it was a good win but it hardly proves he is indisputably the master coach and that any criticisms of him are not valid.

Let's at least see the season out before we ooh and aaah his 1-2 start to the season


He got his own thread 2 games into the season but now we need to wait until the season is out?

Not sure on your stance but many in the thread have been waiting in a dark basement for the chance to be proven and rejoice in the fact he is not our coach. If you are so happy, why the bitterness and constant need to be validated? You do realise you had to wait 5 years for threads like these, he was Freos best ever coach after 5 minutes there.

Anyways, Lyon is a terrific coach. Those that don't think so can continue their bitter existence, and wait for opportunities to make more threads like these. He'll be coaching for the next 10, either at Freo or other so you'll def get your chances.

You should be happy he walked. Happy with the club for constructing a contract w a 3 month get out clause. And bitter no more because he did you a favour!


Post Reply