We need to talk about Paddy.

[Moods]

Paddy will be good. Just not Roo standard.

Roo is in the best 3 players of his generation and is in the best 3 Sainters ever. The bar is very high if that is the standard.

[White Winmar]

WW - so in your opinion should we have picked Petracca over Paddy ?

Also, let's say for arguments sake we end up with 2 top 10 draft picks this year. Do we look to keep them both, trade 1 and keep 1 , or trade them both ?

Petracca is the better player. Paddy was the greater need. The greater need won. No problem with that. Petracca is a gun. We need to realise he'll play a lot of great football. So will Paddy. Let's not go into meltdown every time Petracca is BOG. That will happen a lot. Paddy will be a good get. Hopefully a premiership player. In the end, that's all that counts.

[Joffa Burns]

Paddy will be good. Just not Roo standard.

Roo is in the best 3 players of his generation and is in the best 3 Sainters ever. The bar is very high if that is the standard.

Tom Lynch, Jeremy Cameron, Jesse Hogan and Jon Patton are not Roo standard either.

I just want Paddy to be a quality KPP and I'm not convinced he'll be that with his health and concussion issues.

[BigMart]

Why would you ever draft for needs.

18yo players don't fill needs

[st.byron]

WW - so in your opinion should we have picked Petracca over Paddy ?

Also, let's say for arguments sake we end up with 2 top 10 draft picks this year. Do we look to keep them both, trade 1 and keep 1 , or trade them both ?

Petracca is the better player. Paddy was the greater need. The greater need won. No problem with that. Petracca is a gun. We need to realise he'll play a lot of great football. So will Paddy. Let's not go into meltdown every time Petracca is BOG. That will happen a lot. Paddy will be a good get. Hopefully a premiership player. In the end, that's all that counts.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing :

Billings instead of Bont
Lonie instead of Daniel
Paddy instead of Petracca

Take Billings, Lonie and Paddy out of our side and put in the above three. Now there's a midfield.

[saint64]

will talking about Paddy change anything ?

Hopefully it will. As fugazi says - we are all feeling that familiar St Kilda feeling at the moment. If we have made mistakes in our drafting then the recruiting team need to take ownership of that and work towards minimising mistakes in the future. Talking about it also helps us supporters come to terms with it and to get back to supporting Paddy and the rest of the team regardless.

[Griggsy]

I thought we were talking about paddy, in the aptly named thread "paddy".

I do agree with the sentiment though, patience.

[Devilhead]

I agree if you all love Bont and Petracca so much then go and fin support the Bulldogs and Dees and do us all a favor

[Leo.J]

Why would you ever draft for needs.

18yo players don't fill needs

I agree.


Drafting for needs with a no.1 pick?

Get the best available, then trade for needs.

[SaintPav]

Drafting the best available players is only a rule of thumb but it has become a bit of football cliche that someone once reeled off. For reasons that are obvious, it is not a principle that is set in stone.

What if our best available two picks next draft are two key forwards?

What do we do then hindsight kings?

[Johnny Member]

The WC outsmarted us and GT's obstinance beat us that day. But I digress.

I didn't think GT even attended draft day?

<warning for baiting>

Baiting??

The post I replied to stated that GT was involved directly in drafting, but I was under the impression that he was criticised for not being involved at all - and not even attending the draft? I might be wrong though, hence me asking the question.


Who am I supposedly baiting?

[BigMart]

Take two key forwards.. but if there is little between the second player to take and the next player

Choose a variety... in not if it is line ball

We took McCartin because of two reasons
1-they liked his attitude
2-he was a key forward

Was he as good as Petracca
No, and there was a gap in absolute ability. Petracca was regarded as a freak, a rare talent. Bit immature.

Both were limited physically
Petracca, heavy set and poor engine... but elite power and explosiveness
McCartin, slowish, with poor endurance. Athletically limited.

Main attributes
Petracca - ability to create something out of nothing, and powerful impact player
Similar traits to Martin, Fyfe, Danger, Stevie J but not a huge ball winner
Can be a match winner

McCartin - courage, good hands, good game sense.
Similar traits - Tex, Roughie,
Reliable contributor

[Griggsy]

The fear was real, dogs went a full premiership window without luring a forward. And they are still taking aged veteren to fill the role now. Rumour is Boyd last year was paid $1.7million as he was on rookie wages before that so I doubt we ever wanted to go that route. And besides people always say the bigs take longer, what use is picking one up at the end of your rebuild and then waiting 3-5 years to pay dividends.

[White Winmar]

The WC outsmarted us and GT's obstinance beat us that day. But I digress.

I didn't think GT even attended draft day?

<warning for baiting>

Baiting??

The post I replied to stated that GT was involved directly in drafting, but I was under the impression that he was criticised for not being involved at all - and not even attending the draft? I might be wrong though, hence me asking the question.


Who am I supposedly baiting?

See JM, this is where you fall down. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that you were baiting me. You do post some really good things. I even praised another of your posts recently, but this is a classic example of where you muck up, and paint yourself into a corner. Of course coaches have a say in drafting. Having been to numerous meetings where draft strategy is discussed, they have an enormous input, especially in the time of GT. Probably a bit less now but I have been out of the game since 2012.

GT insisted on Ball. We wanted Judd, but the final consensus was that we would take Ball at 2, WC would take Polak or Sampi at 3 (both WA boys) and that Fremantle would take the one left over at 4, leaving Judd at 5. When the day came, WC looked at our table with huge grins as they announced Judd at 3. They rolled us, pure and simple. GT was as furious as anyone, as was RB, who'd coached Judd at East Sandy juniors and was red hot on him. Quite simply, he was the best player in the draft by a mile, with only his shoulders a question mark.

Hawthorn only took Hodge because his coach at the Falcons, Mickey Turner, monstered them into it. GT said afterwards that he left the drafting to Bevo, which was complete bulls*** and typical of what GT always did. Accept the praise, deflect the criticism. I was there. That's how it went down. If you knew anything about the way GT did things, you would know that he was a complete control freak. Nothing happened without his imprimatur. He was the right man at the right time, but that howler will haunt him forever, because it cost him, and us at least two flags. He could've gone down in history as our greatest coach. In the end, he didn't even get us to a GF. When they broke up, Butterrsssssss let him know all about it as well. Hope that clears all that up for you.

[Sainter_Dad]

Yes - we need to talk about Paddy

Are we going to win the flag this year? Doubt it
Is Paddy a smart footballer? All indications are yes
Will he become the best FF ever? Doubt it
Will he be a great focal point for our forward line? I believe so.

The thing that you need to ask is:
If Petracca is 100 - what are the chances of us getting another 90-95 midfielder? Pretty damned good I would think
If Paddy is 90-95 as a forward - what is the chances of us getting a 100 FF? - Pretty damned slim I would think

Paddy WILL make it - Paddy will be a 200 game player, and through free agency, drafting or whatever we will have our 90-95 midfielder AND a pretty damned good FF!

[Johnny Member]

The WC outsmarted us and GT's obstinance beat us that day. But I digress.

I didn't think GT even attended draft day?

<warning for baiting>

Baiting??

The post I replied to stated that GT was involved directly in drafting, but I was under the impression that he was criticised for not being involved at all - and not even attending the draft? I might be wrong though, hence me asking the question.


Who am I supposedly baiting?

See JM, this is where you fall down. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that you were baiting me. You do post some really good things. I even praised another of your posts recently, but this is a classic example of where you muck up, and paint yourself into a corner. Of course coaches have a say in drafting. Having been to numerous meetings where draft strategy is discussed, they have an enormous input, especially in the time of GT. Probably a bit less now but I have been out of the game since 2012.

GT insisted on Ball. We wanted Judd, but the final consensus was that we would take Ball at 2, WC would take Polak or Sampi at 3 (both WA boys) and that Fremantle would take the one left over at 4, leaving Judd at 5. When the day came, WC looked at our table with huge grins as they announced Judd at 3. They rolled us, pure and simple. GT was as furious as anyone, as was RB, who'd coached Judd at East Sandy juniors and was red hot on him. Quite simply, he was the best player in the draft by a mile, with only his shoulders a question mark.

Hawthorn only took Hodge because his coach at the Falcons, Mickey Turner, monstered them into it. GT said afterwards that he left the drafting to Bevo, which was complete bulls*** and typical of what GT always did. Accept the praise, deflect the criticism. I was there. That's how it went down. If you knew anything about the way GT did things, you would know that he was a complete control freak. Nothing happened without his imprimatur. He was the right man at the right time, but that howler will haunt him forever, because it cost him, and us at least two flags. He could've gone down in history as our greatest coach. In the end, he didn't even get us to a GF. When they broke up, Butterrsssssss let him know all about it as well. Hope that clears all that up for you.

Fall down? Paint myself into a corner??

I asked a question. That's all. Very simple.


You're very emotive, and very defensive.


Why would you perceive such a simple question as baiting?

[SaintPav]

GT insisted on Ball. We wanted Judd, but the final consensus was that we would take Ball at 2, WC would take Polak or Sampi at 3 (both WA boys) and that Fremantle would take the one left over at 4, leaving Judd at 5. When the day came, WC looked at our table with huge grins as they announced Judd at 3. They rolled us, pure and simple. GT was as furious as anyone, as was RB, who'd coached Judd at East Sandy juniors and was red hot on him. Quite simply, he was the best player in the draft by a mile, with only his shoulders a question mark.

Hawthorn only took Hodge because his coach at the Falcons, Mickey Turner, monstered them into it. GT said afterwards that he left the drafting to Bevo, which was complete bulls*** and typical of what GT always did. Accept the praise, deflect the criticism. I was there. That's how it went down. If you knew anything about the way GT did things, you would know that he was a complete control freak. Nothing happened without his imprimatur. He was the right man at the right time, but that howler will haunt him forever, because it cost him, and us at least two flags. He could've gone down in history as our greatest coach. In the end, he didn't even get us to a GF. When they broke up, Butterrsssssss let him know all about it as well. Hope that clears all that up for you.

Wow!

Sounds like one colossal f*** up.

[Linton Lodger]

Good post WW, although I don't entirely agree with your comparison of Roo & Paddy, fundamentally because they are completely different players albeit both key forwards.

Your insight on the Judd non-recruitment was interesting and appreciated. I think people have to seperate the Judd/Ball issue from the McCartin/Petracca issue. The major difference being that GT chose one midfielder over another contrary to the advice he was receiving from people around him. Regarding Paddy & Petracca that was key forward versus midfielder and was about securing a quality key forward for our developing list, particularly after the Bulldogs recklessness sent their market value soaring.

Its way to early to say that McCartin won't be as good as Roo and difficult because they are different types. Roo being more the classic CHF and Paddy more a classic FF (although Paddy has no trouble playing high). Paddy will never have Roo's run your opponent into the ground stamina, however Paddy's reading of the ball in flight is far superior to Roo's. I also think Paddy has far better hands and a quicker mind.

Although not many on here will agree with me, I still think Billings will be as good or better than the Bont long term and Gresham could be absolutely anything.

[Johnny Member]

To be fair though I suppose, Ball played in as many flags as Judd did.

[White Winmar]

The WC outsmarted us and GT's obstinance beat us that day. But I digress.

I didn't think GT even attended draft day?

<warning for baiting>

Baiting??

The post I replied to stated that GT was involved directly in drafting, but I was under the impression that he was criticised for not being involved at all - and not even attending the draft? I might be wrong though, hence me asking the question.


Who am I supposedly baiting?

See JM, this is where you fall down. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that you were baiting me. You do post some really good things. I even praised another of your posts recently, but this is a classic example of where you muck up, and paint yourself into a corner. Of course coaches have a say in drafting. Having been to numerous meetings where draft strategy is discussed, they have an enormous input, especially in the time of GT. Probably a bit less now but I have been out of the game since 2012.

GT insisted on Ball. We wanted Judd, but the final consensus was that we would take Ball at 2, WC would take Polak or Sampi at 3 (both WA boys) and that Fremantle would take the one left over at 4, leaving Judd at 5. When the day came, WC looked at our table with huge grins as they announced Judd at 3. They rolled us, pure and simple. GT was as furious as anyone, as was RB, who'd coached Judd at East Sandy juniors and was red hot on him. Quite simply, he was the best player in the draft by a mile, with only his shoulders a question mark.

Hawthorn only took Hodge because his coach at the Falcons, Mickey Turner, monstered them into it. GT said afterwards that he left the drafting to Bevo, which was complete bulls*** and typical of what GT always did. Accept the praise, deflect the criticism. I was there. That's how it went down. If you knew anything about the way GT did things, you would know that he was a complete control freak. Nothing happened without his imprimatur. He was the right man at the right time, but that howler will haunt him forever, because it cost him, and us at least two flags. He could've gone down in history as our greatest coach. In the end, he didn't even get us to a GF. When they broke up, Butterrsssssss let him know all about it as well. Hope that clears all that up for you.

Fall down? Paint myself into a corner??

I asked a question. That's all. Very simple.


You're very emotive, and very defensive.


Why would you perceive such a simple question as baiting?

I didn't. The moderators did. You posted, whining about being pinged for baiting. I tried to clear up your mistaken beliefs with the truth. That was obviously too much for you. Are you ok? You seem unwell and unable to grasp the simplest concepts of truth. I won't upset you by engaging you further. I really feel sorry for you.

[Johnny Member]

The WC outsmarted us and GT's obstinance beat us that day. But I digress.

I didn't think GT even attended draft day?

<warning for baiting>

Baiting??

The post I replied to stated that GT was involved directly in drafting, but I was under the impression that he was criticised for not being involved at all - and not even attending the draft? I might be wrong though, hence me asking the question.


Who am I supposedly baiting?

See JM, this is where you fall down. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that you were baiting me. You do post some really good things. I even praised another of your posts recently, but this is a classic example of where you muck up, and paint yourself into a corner. Of course coaches have a say in drafting. Having been to numerous meetings where draft strategy is discussed, they have an enormous input, especially in the time of GT. Probably a bit less now but I have been out of the game since 2012.

GT insisted on Ball. We wanted Judd, but the final consensus was that we would take Ball at 2, WC would take Polak or Sampi at 3 (both WA boys) and that Fremantle would take the one left over at 4, leaving Judd at 5. When the day came, WC looked at our table with huge grins as they announced Judd at 3. They rolled us, pure and simple. GT was as furious as anyone, as was RB, who'd coached Judd at East Sandy juniors and was red hot on him. Quite simply, he was the best player in the draft by a mile, with only his shoulders a question mark.

Hawthorn only took Hodge because his coach at the Falcons, Mickey Turner, monstered them into it. GT said afterwards that he left the drafting to Bevo, which was complete bulls*** and typical of what GT always did. Accept the praise, deflect the criticism. I was there. That's how it went down. If you knew anything about the way GT did things, you would know that he was a complete control freak. Nothing happened without his imprimatur. He was the right man at the right time, but that howler will haunt him forever, because it cost him, and us at least two flags. He could've gone down in history as our greatest coach. In the end, he didn't even get us to a GF. When they broke up, Butterrsssssss let him know all about it as well. Hope that clears all that up for you.

Fall down? Paint myself into a corner??

I asked a question. That's all. Very simple.


You're very emotive, and very defensive.


Why would you perceive such a simple question as baiting?

I didn't. The moderators did. You posted, whining about being pinged for baiting. I tried to clear up your mistaken beliefs with the truth. That was obviously too much for you. Are you ok? You seem unwell and unable to grasp the simplest concepts of truth. I won't upset you by engaging you further. I really feel sorry for you.

Very emotive once again. Borderline hysterical.


I didn't whine.

I asked a question. Very simple.

[White Winmar]

Emotive? Facts that don't suit you, so you have to continue making s*** up. Can't argue with people like you, JM. You lack the basic skills and integrity. At least you are convinced of your own brilliance, which gives you membership of a club of one. It has been fun watching you make a fool of yourself. I'll stop now. It's becoming boring.

[Johnny Member]

Emotive? Facts that don't suit you, so you have to continue making s*** up. Can't argue with people like you, JM. You lack the basic skills and integrity. At least you are convinced of your own brilliance, which gives you membership of a club of one. It has been fun watching you make a fool of yourself. I'll stop now. It's becoming boring.

You're jumping at shadows.

Can't argue with people like you, JM.

Who's arguing?

Your emotion and defensiveness clouds your judgement. I'm not arguing anything.

[st.byron]

Guys, the thread's going nowhere like this.
Please leave aside the personal aspersions and suggestions that each other are lacking in various basic qualities of humanity and carry on with debating the subject, rather than each other's deficiencies.

Any further personal commentary tit for tat from anyone at all and the thread will be locked.

[ace]

WW thanks for the post it puts things in perspective, but I too have been waiting over 50 years how much longer should we be expected to be patient for?

well for me Im not quite sure what the point is ?
To tell us that Melbourne went to the well in 2014 and topped up with real talent
but when we went to the well we didnt get the real talent we should have got ?

David Carradine may have had patience to burn - but pretty certain he was the best kick arse kung fu 'ist going round to back it up.

In 2000 Riewoldt was the best prospect in the draft, he just happened to be a key forward.
In 2002 Goddard was the best prospect in the draft, he was NOT a key forward.

When we took Paddy he may have been the best player but not the best prospect.
He had achieved everything that he could at that age despite his type 1 diabetes.
We had three choices take a dedicated player HANDICAPPED by type 1 diabetes, or take Petracca, or trade pick one for two top ten picks.
We panicked having seen Sydney pay ridiculous money to get Buddy and the Dogs pay massive money to get Boyd, believing he is all they needed to top up for a premiership.
We wanted a future super star key forward but there was not one there.
The best was moderately short and handicapped.
Paddy will turn out to be a good player but not a superstar because his fitness will always be handicapped by diabetes and be shorter than his opponent.
I think we should have taken one of the other two options.
Note, Melbourne did not go tall when they had the chances they went for the best.