Modern Rucking. Welcome to the world of "Apart-Height"

[White Winmar]

The bounce is dying, forumites and so is traditional ruck work. They are both on life support and the AFL wants to pull the plug completely. They're allowing the centre bounce to remain for now, purely to reduce the shock and ensure they make this momentous change through stealth. Those of us who've rucked as footballers will know the bounce gives you a chance, especially against a bigger and taller opponent. You could use your body more, with the bounce calling for quick reactions and judgements. With the ball being thrown up, we are reduced to a basketball style tip off. Always the same height, direction and trajectory, and now that ruckman are separated by a line at the centre bounce, another crucial tactic has been denied to the shorter man, which is to change the angle of the approach and entry to the contest.

Imagine how John Nicholls, Polly Farmer, or Sam Newman would've gone under today's rules. All brilliant in the traditional art of rucking. They wouldn't stand a chance, not purely because of the height disparity, but because they'd be denied the use of their most valuable assets. Anticipation, positioning and subtle and not so subtle physical clashes with the opponent. The new monsters, taller than 206 cm (6'10") in the old language will soon have to be the norm. Height is the new black when it comes to rucking.

The abolition of the third man up further plays into the monster's hands. This was a tactic that could curb the dominance of the tallest player and create greater competition in the contest. The AFL clearly doesn't want that. They want less congestion, fewer stoppages and a more open, faster and in their view, attractive spectacle. I wonder what Alan Morrow would make of all this? I know the game must evolve, but we've lost a lot of uniqueness in our game over the past few decades. The drop kick and the torp, two of the most aesthetically pleasing aspects of our game, have gone the way of the dodo. The bump, our sport's version of the motor racing car crash, is on life support. Indulge at your own risk, not that of your opponent.

Now comes the slow destruction of traditional ruck work. Soon it will be consigned to the ranks of so many artisan skills of the past, which now exist only in the recesses of nostalgic thoughts and dusty history books. What a shame. People used to go to the footy to watch Nicholls vs. Farmer, Ditterich vs. Thompson, Dempsey vs. Moore and more lately, Cox vs. Sandilands. Who wants to watch two bean poles merely trying to outreach each other in a bruise free jump fest?

We saw the future, or rather lack of it, for traditional ruck play on Saturday. Free from the burden of competition, Gawn, like the biggest kid in the playground, was able to dominate, mainly due to his considerable height advantage. We might find ourselves being similarly dominated again before the year is out. This is the new apart-height. Discrimination on the grounds of physical features, in this case how tall you are. If the trend continues, I can suddenly see a spot in the team for Jason Holmes, who has the physical leap to overcome the height discrepancies. Suddenly, I can see why they offered him another year, mainly as insurance for the ongoing experiment. It may end up being the smartest move of last year.

[mullet]

Was just listening to Nicky Dal on SEN (Gee he is very good on TV as well) he was saying that just getting the taps doesnt necessarily work, that you have to be able to follow around the ground too. Nick said Gawn is excellent at this.

He spoke about Geelong and how they knew that Sandilands would win every tap, and so they went very defensive and of course won the game. ie at bounces they defended their opponents like crazy and thus ended up winning.

I am no footy expert and I'm just passing on what Nick said. It does sound like the dinosaur is dead though, and you have to be more than just a tall bloke, you need to have an engine as well.

I thought your op was great though and yep times are a changing.

[samoht]

If there was a hitout to clearance stat over a whole season which demonstrates that the x extra hitouts won by these magnificent ruckmen (Sandilands,Natanui etc..) translates into x more clearances for their teams - I think we'd all take notice and there'd be no arguments.

Put it this way ...
They'd be the highest paid and most sought after players if their 30 extra hitouts translated into 30 more clearances.
Then we'd still be happy if they only took one mark and only averaged 8 possessions around the ground.
It's clearly not the case.

Port Adelaide only averaged 30 hitouts per game last year (the lowest) - yet led the clearance stats with 39 (well, equal 2nd behind GWS on 41) clearances per game.

[dragit]

I don't know if it makes really tall average players any better… Hickey just gave Naismith a bath in the last JLT game.

Sandilands and Gawn are just good footballers… from memory most recent premiership teams haven't had a standout ruckmen. The traditional ruckmen has been dying out for awhile now anyway IMO… big, slow oafs that can't take a grab or kick the ball, but can compete in wrestling hitout contests.

Rhys Stanley is the prototype modern ruckmen in size, strength and speed… he just doesn't seem quite good enough to put it together consistently or maybe it's lack of want?

Most of the guys taller than Hickey in the comp aren't can't even crack a regular AFL game, I don't think the new rules will make any of them stars.

6 ft 11 in
Mason Cox, Aaron Sandilands

6 ft 10 in
Dawson Simpson, Jarrod Witts

6 ft 9 in
Max Gawn, Matt Korcheck, Rory Lobb, Sam Naismith, Braydon Preuss, Zac Smith

6 ft 8 in
Timothy English, Jonathon Ceglar, Lachlan Keeffe, Oscar McInerney, Ivan Soldo

6 ft 7 in
Darcy Cameron, Zac Clarke, Sam Draper, Brodie Grundy, Jason Holmes, Peter Ladhams, Cameron Loersch, Scott Lycett, Tom Nicholls, Andrew Phillips, Jake Spencer, Peter Wright, Harris Andrews, Eric Hipwood, Sam Jacobs, Matthew Leuenberger, Billy Longer, Lewis Pierce, Marc Pittonet, Kurt Tippett, Tom Bellchambers, Jake Carlisle, Levi Casboult, Daniel Currie, Sean Darcy, Tom Downie, Jonathan Giles, Todd Goldstein, Jonathon Griffin, Shaun Hampson, Tom Hickey, Rowan Marshall, Darcy Moore, Nic Naitanui, Reilly O'Brien, Archie Smith

[White Winmar]

It will certainly help the less skilled in the art. It won't turn a GOP into a champion, but it will help him to be more relevant. Gawn is a good all round footballer, but the combination of height and the new rules makes him an even better one, as he demonstrated on Saturday. Players are getting taller on average, and have been for decades. However, the super talls are coming into vogue. This is like an arms race. Faster, stronger, taller, more versatile. If you're a skilled ruckman, but only about 198 cm tall, you're going to struggle to get your hand to the ball before some guy who is 211. I don't actually think Sandilands is that skilful. If he were 200 cm I think he'd hardly get a look in. His stats, apart from hit outs are 't that great, doesn't kick many goals and isn't particularly good overhead. A good example of an average talent in an extraordinary body.

Why do you think all clubs are now looking to the US college system for prospects (like Holmes and Cox)? The Sudanese community is also now a new frontier for recruiters. Guys who are 210 + and who can jump and run. That is the future. We went to Ireland in search of blistering pace and running ability. The talls are a new frontier and the new rules will help them come to the for even more quickly. A genuine ruckman last won a Brownlow in 1992. I count Goodes as more of a follower/utility/midfielder. I think we'll see one salute in the near future, maybe even this year. Let's see how this pans out over the next couple of years.

[samoht]

But hitouts are meaningless - they don't translate into clearances (in and of themselves).
So what is the fuss all about?

You just need a competitive ruckman - around 200cm - who wins 15-20 possessions around the ground, and takes some important marks.

[dragit]

We went to Ireland in search of blistering pace and running ability.

And came home with…

[longtimesaint]

But hitouts are meaningless - they don't translate into clearances (in and of themselves).
So what is the fuss all about?

You just need a competitive ruckman - who wins 20 possessions around the ground.

If you watch our match against Melbourne Gawn was so dominant with the ball being thrown up.
He was able to palm the ball directly to their midfielders and then it becomes a clearance.

[samoht]

But hitouts are meaningless - they don't translate into clearances (in and of themselves).
So what is the fuss all about?

You just need a competitive ruckman - who wins 20 possessions around the ground.

If you watch our match against Melbourne Gawn was so dominant with the ball being thrown up.
He was able to palm the ball directly to their midfielders and then it becomes a clearance.

Melbourne had 35 more hitouts - but only 13 more clearances.

They dominated us everywhere around the ground - they also took 60 more marks - and had more than 100 more possessions.

I put that down to their clearance players/midfielders being more switched on - not the ruckmen.

If Gawn was that good - and accurate with his hitouts, palming the ball at will - why didn't they win 35 more clearances (to go with his 35 extra hitouts)?

We need to look at the stats over the whole year!

[dragit]

why didn't they win 35 more clearances (to go with his 35 extra hitouts)?

I don't think anyone has ever even remotely suggested 100% efficiency…

5-6 extra clearances from good ruckwork might be the difference in a won or a loss.

I think most people would agree that Gawn's ruckwork was a huge factor in their win on Saturday.

[samoht]

why didn't they win 35 more clearances (to go with his 35 extra hitouts)?

I don't think anyone has ever even remotely suggested 100% efficiency…

5-6 extra clearances from good ruckwork might be the difference in a won or a loss.

I think most people would agree that Gawn's ruckwork was a huge factor in their win on Saturday.

The ball being palmed directly to Melbourne players - suggests otherwise - a fair degree of pin-point accuracy and an armchair ride.
Let's revisit this over the whole year, 2017 (at season's end).
The 2016 team stats - and years prior - don't bear out any correlation between hitouts and clearances.

[dragit]

The 2016 team stats - and years prior - don't bear out any correlation between hitouts and clearances.

Depends if you look or not I guess.

2016
Melbourne
1st for hitouts
5th for clearances

West Coast Eagles
2nd for hitouts
7th for clearances

3 GWS Giants
3rd for hitouts
1st for clearances


2015
Fremantle
1st for hitouts
1st for clearances

West Coast Eagles
2nd for hitouts
6th for clearances

Port Adelaide
3rd for hitouts
2nd for clearances

2014
5 of the top 8 hitouts sides were top 8 for clearances

2013
6 of the top 7 hitouts sides were top 7 for clearances

2012
5 of the top 6 hitouts sides were top 6 for clearances

[samoht]

The thing is - there's only half a dozen or so clearances between the top clearance team and the bottom clearance team on average per game over the whole year. Typically speaking over the last few years.
The bottom clearance team might average say 34 clearances over the year and the top clearance team 40 clearances.

So, it's not a big deal!
You're only ever going to be 3 clearances above the average if you're the top clearance team or 3 clearances below the average if you're the bottom clearance team.

... and it doesn't correlate or correspond very well with the hitout differential between bottom and top teams and with who these top and bottom hitout teams are.
As I pointed out - Port Adelaide had an abysmally low 30 hitouts per game on average over last year (the lowest) - yet were the 2nd best clearance team!

Dal Santo knows what he's talking about.

[dragit]

Oh okay, so there is a clear correlation, but now more clearances aren't that important…

6 out of the top 8 sides for clearances also made the top 8 for the past 2 years.

[samoht]

Oh okay, so there is a clear correlation, but now more clearances aren't that important…

6 out of the top 8 sides for clearances also made the top 8 for the past 2 years.

The top clearance team averages 3 clearances more than the average and the bottom clearance team averages 3 clearances below the average.
So nothing to write home about.

And there's no correlation between hitouts and clearances (tenuous at best, is all I can say) - and there's a clear negative correlation as far as Port Adelaide is concerned (for those propounding a correlation).

The top clearance teams have the best midfielders - sharp players who clear the ball out of congestion. Having the best midfielders/clearance players also makes you a top team, generally speaking - so there is a correlation there.

[White Winmar]

Melbourne had 10 consecutive centre clearances bridging the second and third quarters. Kicked ten consecutive goals. Not all from the centre clearance, but it shifted the momentum. Coincidence? I think not. The domination started in the middle. We were under constant pressure and we cracked.

[samoht]

So if we had Gawn and they had Hickey we would have turned the tables and had 120 more possessions than Melbourne.

A 240 possession turnaround.

[BigMart]

Quality of clearance is more important than quantity... you can't defend a quality clearance... a rushed or pressured kick is easily defendable

Not sure if anyone's played midfield here with a dominant ruckman, but a few years ago I played with a guy (human tree trunk) and would have picked up an easy 40... maybe 50, with about 15-20 clearances, I was rated bog but it al came down to be given the ball on a platter, all game. It was ridiculous how easy it was that day, I was running to the drop of the ball as they threw it up

In 2006 I played in a mid group that had a 209cm 125kg monster ruckman. We were a normal mid group. We dominated, opposition were just reactive, and couldn't compete with us... again, we could anticipate the drop of the ball.

There is hit outs, and dominant hit outs.

[Bluthy]

Further proof from Seaford at how pissed off Richo was at Brandon White coming back from the off-season unfit:



Ok, I have a bit of an addiction to google images at the moment. Maybe I need to go to jail for a year to go cold turkey. Wait up Ben...

[White Winmar]

So if we had Gawn and they had Hickey we would have turned the tables and had 120 more possessions than Melbourne.

A 240 possession turnaround.

Please explain!

[Jacks Back]

Melbourne had 10 consecutive centre clearances bridging the second and third quarters. Kicked ten consecutive goals. Not all from the centre clearance, but it shifted the momentum. Coincidence? I think not. The domination started in the middle. We were under constant pressure and we cracked.

Back in my day if the other ruck man was winning the hitouts you either sharked their hit outs or played man on man on their midfielders so they couldn't easily get away.

Simples!

[BigMart]

Reactive still

Sharking a hitout, at what stage do you make a decision on the quadrant or 'time' to position on the move... the best clearances are on the move, the very best at pace...

Thing is, if you know where it's going, you can start a distance away from the hit zone and hit that at pace... if you're reacting to an opposition hit, you cannot do that... you'd be guessing

On man defence... easy if standing still
Good mids are never still at stoppage, especially with ruck dominance

[Jacks Back]

I only see the midfielders all starting around the centre circle and not really running anywhere at full pace

[supersaints]

Having a dominant ruck does not always coralate to clearances .... but it it sure makes it easier for the on ballers.

[samoht]

Having a dominant ruck does not always coralate to clearances .... but it it sure makes it easier for the on ballers.

Only about 6 clearances in total separate the top clearance team from the bottom - and as far as centre clearances are concerned only 2 clearances between the top clearance team and bottom.

In centre clearances, even though we had a below-average number of hitouts last year - we only finished 0.9 clearances behind the leading clearance team, Adelaide.

So - a bee's diaphragm away from being the top clearance team, from a below-average number of hitouts.

A clearance is a clearance -
The quality of the clearance is a function of the quality of the player clearing the ball... does he get it out of congestion and deliver it to a team mate in the clear - or to someone under pressure.