Petracca v McCartin

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

User avatar
Linton Lodger
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon 18 Aug 2014 2:07pm
Has thanked: 86 times
Been thanked: 256 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655570Post Linton Lodger »

saint64 wrote:
Linton Lodger wrote:
saint64 wrote:I realise people have already posted about this in other topics, but it deserves its own thread.
We have screwed up.
Petracca is a gun who will be a superstar of the competition for the next dozen years. McCartin is an injury-prone, under-sized key forward who doesn't kick goals. He can take a great grab, but does little else. We are having to try to turn him into a lead-up forward because he isn't good enough in the goalsquare.
I know hind sight is a beautiful thing, but there have been few more important decisions that the club has had to make over the last 6-7 years. It was crucial that we picked well at the 2014 draft. With the number one pick it was our biggest opportunity to pick up a star for the next generation: our next Riewoldt, Goddard or (dare I say it) Judd.
From the media reports at the time Petracca was the clear number one choice in the lead up to that draft. If we were drafting on ability instead of perceived need it was a no-brainer. I understand our logic - we thought we needed a key forward - but McCartin is no Tony Lockett.
I say this with all due respect to McCartin himself who seems a great young guy, and to our recruiting team who has generally done a great job over the last five years, but sometimes mistakes are made, and when they are we have to recognise them, deal with them, and only then can we move on.
I think McCartin can and probably will be a really good player for us, but he won't give us what Petracca would have.
As ever, I am happy to be proven wrong.
saint64 we may as well rename you the Richmond FC.

When a club is building its list, good KPP are a priority and you lock those away first. Midfielders are more abundant than good KPP particularly key forwards.

So if there's a good key forward available you must take them and not be tempted by possible gun midfielders. The Western Bulldogs built their last list (Eade's) without a key forward and that's why they didn't even get to a Grand Final. I'm sure they are aware that this was a fatal flaw in the building of their last list and is probably the reason they paid way overs for Tom Boyd and drove up the market value of key forwards. In fact if Ryan Griffen had not walked out on the Club, they wouldn't be Premiers now.

Then there is of course those fools the Richmond FC who took Brett Deledio and Tambling ahead of Buddy Franklin and J Roughhead. A spectacular piece of folly and they still haven't recovered from that decision. If we had taken Petracca ahead of McCartin, I personally would have lost all confidence in our list management team. Remember Melbourne already had Hogan, if they didn't they would've taken McCartin ahead of Petracca given the opportunity.

McCartin will be a gun, he plays a more difficult position than Petracca. Petracca is a gun, don't worry about that, but I think Jade Gresham is going to be better.

If we had drafted Petracca, I'm sure we'd all be excited now, but we'd still be wondering who would fill Riewoldt's large shoes and I don't think there are any really good key forwards that will be up for trade or free agency next year. Bruce & Membrey are good, but they're never going to be Nick Riewoldt. McCartin could very well be and possibly better.
The sad thing is I am jealous of the Richmond FC Linton Lodger. They have 9 more premiership cups than we do. You make a point re Tambling, but I wouldn't call Deledio a bust. Petracca is a goal kicking midfielder/forward who would have complimented players like Bruce and Membrey. Our policy going in to that draft should have been to secure the best player possible. All the reputable scribes at the time were saying that Petracca was the best player available. We decided differently, so we have to wear the consequences if what I fear is correct - which is that we were wrong.
In comparison to Franklin or Roughead (both out & out Champions), Deledio was a bust. He's a nice/polished good player at best, he isn't a champion. Richmond haven't won a final since and don't look like winning a final or indeed playing in one for a while. Richmond won their last Premiership in 1980 (I was a teenager then) and they've won 2 finals matches since (in 36 years!) and about 15 years ago.

If you are building a list and need KPP you don't get too clever by half by ignoring a highly rated key forward and taking a midfielder. Don't worry Billings and Gresham are goal kicking mids, I reckon Acres will be too. Then of course we may pick up Fyfe, Martin or a midfield jet from GWS next year, instead of having to try and lure a gun key forward at a greatly inflated price.

You don't win Premierships without a gun key forward, particularly these days. Petracca wouldn't have made any difference to us yesterday.


fugazi
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4243
Joined: Thu 25 Mar 2004 2:47pm
Location: incarnate
Has thanked: 286 times
Been thanked: 694 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655572Post fugazi »

Many of us said it at the time - it felt like a mistake - really hope we are wrong, but Paddy over Petracca happened because of what the Dogs paid for Tom Boyd.
We blinked and missed the next Judd.


Nee!
User avatar
skeptic
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 16412
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
Has thanked: 3395 times
Been thanked: 2660 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655573Post skeptic »

So if Paddy played and kicked 3 last night or if the Saints continued in the same vein as the 1st quarter and stomped... does this thread exist?

It feels very reactionary to me


fugazi
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4243
Joined: Thu 25 Mar 2004 2:47pm
Location: incarnate
Has thanked: 286 times
Been thanked: 694 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655576Post fugazi »

the key term here is
"if Paddy played"
I'm afraid that is the problem.
I don't doubt his footy ability, nor his character - but can he get on, and stay on the park?
3 concussions, shoulder, hammy....tell me the Diabetes has no impact on his recovery and conditioning!


Nee!
User avatar
desertsaint
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10281
Joined: Sun 27 Apr 2008 2:02pm
Location: out there
Has thanked: 181 times
Been thanked: 675 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655593Post desertsaint »

we all want to play finals this year, and on that timeframe i reckon petracca would have been the better choice. but realistically we're looking longer ahead, so i'm holding off on criticism of the decision for another year. Always though next year was the year we should be a guine top eight contender. the year after top four. roo will be gone, and a powerful marking forward will be essential to our success.


"The starting point of all achievement is desire. "
longtimesaint
Club Player
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu 01 May 2008 6:30pm
Location: Mentone
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 263 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655595Post longtimesaint »

desertsaint wrote:we all want to play finals this year, and on that timeframe i reckon petracca would have been the better choice. but realistically we're looking longer ahead, so i'm holding off on criticism of the decision for another year. Always though next year was the year we should be a guine top eight contender. the year after top four. roo will be gone, and a powerful marking forward will be essential to our success.
We have two first round picks this year so maybe we can get a really good midfielder with one of them.


One year will be our year
Freebird
Club Player
Posts: 917
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2012 12:37pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 94 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655596Post Freebird »

Other than roo we have a bad record with 1st round draft picks


User avatar
SydneySainter
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2328
Joined: Sat 26 May 2007 6:59pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655598Post SydneySainter »

As much as I think our rebuild over the last four years has been somewhat B-grade (especially with our early picks), quality tall forwards are a lot rarer than quality mids and with Bruce's form slump now spanning a season and a half, there is no guarantee he will be a long-term solution, so we may need a forward of Paddy's potential a lot more than we realise.


Until we have an administration that demands success and a playing group that bleeds for the guernsey, St. Kilda will just be a sh*tty football club.
SMS
Club Player
Posts: 1233
Joined: Fri 04 Nov 2011 3:00pm
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655602Post SMS »

4 MASSIVE ERRORS
1. Beveridge. We had him. Why we chose a stuttering idiot over a legend like bevo is beyond me.
2. Billings over bont. Chose a snot nosed toorak kid who had a nice kick but also the grit of a demons player.
3. Petracca over McCartin. Chose a slow diabetic smallish KEY forward over the standout 190cm midfielder with class and skill rarely seen. Ffs.

So how to fix the current situation?
Another 2-3 years rebuild in the bottom four. Finish 14-16th get HIGH PICKS and use em on fast skillful midfielders.
Trade dunstan back to SA, Acres back to WA and grab quality KPD.
PAY huge money FA FOR GCS LYNCH or another high quality PROVEN KFP.

Good news is Longer and Hickey will be fine for 2021.

So 2 years bottom 4. Tank games. Get speed and quality mids


RODOS
Club Player
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu 18 Apr 2013 11:13pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655606Post RODOS »

23 touches and two goals in a game where his side dominated really isn't that impressive guys. Definitely not the next judd..

we may have lost out, but if so I don't think it will be by THAT much, what's more important is having a team that really wants to win a premiership(s). Leadership, coaching, etc, tracca vs mccartin isn't going to be the difference


User avatar
SydneySainter
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2328
Joined: Sat 26 May 2007 6:59pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655611Post SydneySainter »

RODOS wrote:23 touches and two goals in a game where his side dominated really isn't that impressive guys. Definitely not the next judd..

we may have lost out, but if so I don't think it will be by THAT much, what's more important is having a team that really wants to win a premiership(s). Leadership, coaching, etc, tracca vs mccartin isn't going to be the difference
Sounds pretty good for coming off a knee reco and having played less than a full season in the seniors.


Until we have an administration that demands success and a playing group that bleeds for the guernsey, St. Kilda will just be a sh*tty football club.
BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655618Post BigMart »

It's an excuse for our players, being young... but opposition player gets 23 and 2

There nothing special

Seriously, I'd be happy if any of our leadership group did that


CURLY
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9240
Joined: Fri 16 Feb 2007 3:24pm
Location: WARBURTON
Has thanked: 129 times
Been thanked: 1162 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655620Post CURLY »

SydneySainter wrote:
RODOS wrote:23 touches and two goals in a game where his side dominated really isn't that impressive guys. Definitely not the next judd..

we may have lost out, but if so I don't think it will be by THAT much, what's more important is having a team that really wants to win a premiership(s). Leadership, coaching, etc, tracca vs mccartin isn't going to be the difference
Sounds pretty good for coming off a knee reco and having played less than a full season in the seniors.
So he played our guy didn't yet you excuse him for being behind but not McCartin


NO IFS OR BUTS HARVS IS KING OF THE AFL
SemperFidelis
SS Life Member
Posts: 3856
Joined: Fri 16 Sep 2011 2:41pm
Has thanked: 419 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655624Post SemperFidelis »

SaintPav wrote:
Bluthy wrote:Did Petracca just win a brownlow and I missed it? He was pretty good yesterday but a long way to go. Is he a mid or a half-forward? That was the question on him. He played as a tall and big half-forward which let him dominate with his size and strength but whether he could transition into the midfield was a big question. He looks pretty skilled - good hands like they all had yesterday but didn't dominate by any means.

I'm staying on the Paddy train until it completely derails. It's just stuck in the station for maintenance at the moment (these big trains straight off the production line have some kinks to work out). When it gets momentum going I'm sure it will churn up that track. And in finals, the big unit will arrive with a huge payload

Like
Me like too


Always loyal
SemperFidelis
SS Life Member
Posts: 3856
Joined: Fri 16 Sep 2011 2:41pm
Has thanked: 419 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655625Post SemperFidelis »

SMS wrote:4 MASSIVE ERRORS
1. Beveridge. We had him. Why we chose a stuttering idiot over a legend like bevo is beyond me.
2. Billings over bont. Chose a snot nosed toorak kid who had a nice kick but also the grit of a demons player.
3. Petracca over McCartin. Chose a slow diabetic smallish KEY forward over the standout 190cm midfielder with class and skill rarely seen. Ffs.
Me not like.

Appreciate you did attempt to put up a solution.

But the way you speak about our players and coach is just horrendous.


Always loyal
User avatar
Linton Lodger
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon 18 Aug 2014 2:07pm
Has thanked: 86 times
Been thanked: 256 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655628Post Linton Lodger »

desertsaint wrote:we all want to play finals this year, and on that timeframe i reckon petracca would have been the better choice. but realistically we're looking longer ahead, so i'm holding off on criticism of the decision for another year. Always though next year was the year we should be a guine top eight contender. the year after top four. roo will be gone, and a powerful marking forward will be essential to our success.
No, I actually want this list to win a Premiership. I don't give a crap about making up numbers for the finals.


longtimesaint
Club Player
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu 01 May 2008 6:30pm
Location: Mentone
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 263 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655631Post longtimesaint »

No club needs "supporters" like SMS. -pity we can't trade him out!


One year will be our year
User avatar
magnifisaint
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7641
Joined: Sun 02 May 2004 2:52am
Has thanked: 187 times
Been thanked: 528 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655637Post magnifisaint »

SMS wrote:4 MASSIVE ERRORS
1. Beveridge. We had him. Why we chose a stuttering idiot over a legend like bevo is beyond me.
2. Billings over bont. Chose a snot nosed toorak kid who had a nice kick but also the grit of a demons player.
3. Petracca over McCartin. Chose a slow diabetic smallish KEY forward over the standout 190cm midfielder with class and skill rarely seen. Ffs.

So how to fix the current situation?
Another 2-3 years rebuild in the bottom four. Finish 14-16th get HIGH PICKS and use em on fast skillful midfielders.
Trade dunstan back to SA, Acres back to WA and grab quality KPD.
PAY huge money FA FOR GCS LYNCH or another high quality PROVEN KFP.

Good news is Longer and Hickey will be fine for 2021.

So 2 years bottom 4. Tank games. Get speed and quality mids
1. Beveridge. We had him. Why we chose a stuttering idiot over a legend like bevo is beyond me.

Since when was Bevo a Saints legend??
Rich is not a stuttering idiot.

Total over reaction


Posting 20 years of holey crap!
RODOS
Club Player
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu 18 Apr 2013 11:13pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655663Post RODOS »

BigMart wrote:It's an excuse for our players, being young... but opposition player gets 23 and 2

There nothing special

Seriously, I'd be happy if any of our leadership group did that
I understand what you're saying I just don't think it was that great a performance in a dominant team. Billings got 20 and 1 (having 15 at half time), sure he's been in the system longer, but 23 touches and 2 goals aint that amazing. It's a good performance, sure. And Re the 'excuse' part, that applies to other people, not me. I haven't posted anything regarding youth being an excuse, in fact I haven't posted much at all.

Oliver however, now he's the kind of player that on output can draw comparisons with judd. Different players, but in regards to age and impact.

Also, I must concede at this point, petruckstop makes me feel nauseous upon sight, there's just something about him. That goal celebration.. jesus christ.. get off my stream screen.

He'll probably go on to be a great player, I'm just think the 'we lost by picking paddy' line is a little premature..


saint64
Club Player
Posts: 601
Joined: Sat 13 Mar 2004 12:18am
Location: Perth,WA
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655686Post saint64 »

skeptic wrote:So if Paddy played and kicked 3 last night or if the Saints continued in the same vein as the 1st quarter and stomped... does this thread exist?

It feels very reactionary to me

I would have been rapt if McCartin had kicked 3 yesterday - I dont think he has kicked more than one in a game so far. And then you are probably right, this thread wouldn't exist. It would probably still exist if we had continued in the same vein as the first quarter (started by me or someone else). I have been sitting back for at least two or three weeks now waiting for someone else to start a Petracca v McCartin thread. It has been the elephant in the room on this site. I was genuinely hoping yesterday that McCartin would prove me wrong and show me exactly why we picked him over Petracca. All I got to watch was Petracca, and those who say he only got 23 touches and two goals clearly weren't seeing what I was seeing. What I was seeing was a young star who is really starting to find his feet.
Last edited by saint64 on Sun 26 Mar 2017 9:18pm, edited 1 time in total.


70s sainter
Club Player
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun 09 Oct 2011 6:52pm

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655696Post 70s sainter »

There were times last year when I was genuinely excited by some of paddys contested marks early in games but he always seemed to die off as the game went on .I put this down to his fitness and thought it was just a matter of time . However this year expecting more improvement after a full pre season I was disappointed to see him miss easy shots at goal and not dominate at least for short periods. He just looks like he doesn't believe he was worthy of number 1 draft pick. He's supposed to be the best player from that year for gods sake . Then 3 goals today ? Shouldn't he be kicking bags in the seconds ? Am I missing something ?


SuperDuper
Club Player
Posts: 1298
Joined: Sun 25 Mar 2012 9:45pm
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655700Post SuperDuper »

SMS wrote:4 MASSIVE ERRORS
1. Beveridge. We had him. Why we chose a stuttering idiot over a legend like bevo is beyond me.
2. Billings over bont. Chose a snot nosed toorak kid who had a nice kick but also the grit of a demons player.
3. Petracca over McCartin. Chose a slow diabetic smallish KEY forward over the standout 190cm midfielder with class and skill rarely seen.

Hindsight bias explains 1 and 2. It is easy to say now, but at the time Billings over Bont was considered by the footballl world as a fair call and we already had Richo for a year so to sack him for Bevo at that stage was not on the cards and it was not yet known that Bevo was a legend, at the time he was just "promising"

Number 3 cannot be explained away or dismissed as hindsight bias. The whole football world had Petracca as a standout no. 1 pick. Forget Emma Quayle saying it was a close thing with McCartin, that was just because she knew St. Kilda were mulling it over.

By far the concensus was Petracca as a very clear no. 1. Our recruiters over thought it.. they got "clever" with their selection criteria rather than just doing the basics which involves getting the best footballer

Petracca looks like a rolls royce. Paddy looks like he will be a workhorse with a plough.


saynta
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 22439
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 3:53pm
Has thanked: 8359 times
Been thanked: 3703 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655705Post saynta »

Freebird wrote:Other than roo we have a bad record with 1st round draft picks

BJ?


User avatar
degruch
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8948
Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
Location: Croydonia
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 237 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655707Post degruch »

skeptic wrote:So if Paddy played and kicked 3 last night or if the Saints continued in the same vein as the 1st quarter and stomped... does this thread exist?

It feels very reactionary to me
Bingo. The whole thread is a complete crock...who thought comparisons between a guy who put a couple good quarters together Saturday, and a guy who didn't even run onto the ground, were inevitable? Complete idiocy.


SMS
Club Player
Posts: 1233
Joined: Fri 04 Nov 2011 3:00pm
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Petracca v McCartin

Post: # 1655708Post SMS »

Bont petracca and bevo. :(

faarrrrrkkkkk.


Post Reply