Pace

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Re: Pace

Postby samoht » Mon 20 Mar 2017 7:46pm

Of course pace is important ... Essendon - a middle of the rung team at best - stopped our winning streak in 2009, and then in 2010 I think we lost a game by 10 goals vs a very quick Carlton side, followed by a loss again to Essendon ( a bottom 4 team) - we were susceptible/vulnerable to pace.
It was pretty obvious.

In 2011 - if I recall right, Essendon again punched above their weight in games against us.
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Re: Pace

Postby mad saint guy » Mon 20 Mar 2017 8:31pm

Pace is definitely an important asset but is has to come along with smarts and skills. Clint Jones was super quick but did not possess the ability to retain the ball for our team let alone hurt the opposition. Lenny Hayes was quick through traffic but his top speed wasn't great. Raph Clarke had good acceleration but little awareness. No doubt you want a few players who are genuinely capable of breaking the lines ala JJ but they need to possess smarts and skills otherwise they are going to struggle for a spot ala Wojinksi. If McKenzie can get his production rate up and improve his disposal at senior level (which apparently is amazing at training) then he'll be a huge asset. He has genuine speed and coordination-impaired like Jones. Pace is also why Nathan Wright is best 22 right now - Lonie has good agility but his top speed isn't great so he's too easy to catch. Wright has genuine pace and provides a point of difference along with his manic pressure.

All in all I think we're a team that could use some extra pace (ideally McKenzie, Acres and Freeman all cement themselves in the best 22 and we're the quickest side in the comp) but it's not a huge concern given we already have a fair few quick players in the side and we are generally perceived as a fast-moving team. Guys like Billings and Sinclair are perceived by the wider footy world as being quick because they think fast and are involved in quick attacking movements despite not possessing great speed. Clint Jones could definitely beat Sam Mitchell in a footrace but I know who I'd rather have moving the ball quickly through congestion for my team.
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Re: Pace

Postby BigMart » Mon 20 Mar 2017 9:09pm

Yet

Essendon were s***

We played in GFs

They were rubbish, an offensive team with no chance of playing finals.

We beat the Bulldogs last year, so what... we beat Geelong... they played finals... we did not

Pace is important

Ability is more important
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Re: Pace

Postby samoht » Tue 21 Mar 2017 9:12am

BigMart wrote:Pace is important

Ability is more important


Obviously ability is more important.... I'm just talking about midfield balance - that we have an over-representation of inside players in our midfield. The fact that we kept losing to quicker teams that were s*** (in 2009 and 2010) only makes the case for (having the right balance of) pace even more compelling.
I agree with Con G ...
One more outside line-breaking midfielder with pace and ability would balance things out for us...
Maybe why Whitfield is being considered ... unless someone like DMac emerges as a midfielder - that would be ideal.
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Re: Pace

Postby magnifisaint » Tue 21 Mar 2017 10:37am

It's all about Space.
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Re: Pace

Postby Freebird » Tue 21 Mar 2017 10:58am

magnifisaint wrote:It's all about Space.


Yes and Pace is a very important ingredient to make space carry the ball avoid tackles kick with less pressure open up the play etc. But you must still have skills to create just a lot easier for the quicker players..this is why they try and get the ball in their hands.

Montagna and Steven have mostly been tagged because they carry the ball and create
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Re: Pace

Postby samoht » Tue 21 Mar 2017 11:11am

It's all about that pace ...(to cut through defences and create space) .. see below links .. :wink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKPP2OS8snQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLW_FrF7p34&t=63s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFIh4HpW33o Top 10 Fastest Football Players
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Re: Pace

Postby Moods » Tue 21 Mar 2017 11:52am

White Winmar wrote:Wait until you see Ben Long's lateral movement. I don't know how fast he is in a straight line, but his evasive abilities are top class.


This!

My daughters both play netball at a high junior level and as a result I have watched numerous high level elite games in the past 2 years. To watch a game you would think that Maddie Robinson and Kim Ravillian were super quick. They are fast but appear faster because of their unbelievable change of direction - and change of speed (acceleration) There is a woman who warms the bench at their netball club (Collingwood Magpies) who is faster than both of them in a straight line.

I know they're different games, but the way I think about speed has changed as a consequence. Jack Steven has tremendous change of direction - short legs close to the ground helps I reckon. Roo has great straight line speed for a guy his size, but lateral movement is restricted due to long levers, and quite probably numerous knee issues over the years restricting him in that area. Straight line speed is good, but equally as important is change of direction. Combine speed with change of direction and it's almost impossible to combat. Think Gary Ablett Jnr in his prime - fast but not electric, but superb change of direction.

The point was made about Lenny Hayes and it was well made. Lenny had a brilliant side step. Who cares how fast he was, as long as he didn't get caught with the ball, which he rarely did. He cleared packs with evasiveness - obviously if you combined that with Chris Judd like speed Lenny would have been the greatest mid ever.
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Re: Pace

Postby samoht » Tue 21 Mar 2017 12:03pm

Evasiveness and lateral movement is good when you have the ball (it's a great skill that sets players like Gresham, Dal Santo, Harvey and Hayes apart).... but if a quicker opponent passes you or beats you to the ball, you're left in their wake. Nothing you can do about it.
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Re: Pace

Postby Moods » Tue 21 Mar 2017 1:53pm

samoht wrote:Evasiveness and lateral movement is good when you have the ball (it's a great skill that sets players like Gresham, Dal Santo, Harvey and Hayes apart).... but if a quicker opponent passes you or beats you to the ball, you're left in their wake. Nothing you can do about it.


That happens. but not as often as you'd think in a game of footy. Very rarely do you see a straight out foot race for the ball - the game is too congested and too many players on the field to conjure up that circumstance that often. Even if you do beat your opponent to the ball you still have to get past him once you gather it.

Don't get me wrong, I love speed as well in a player, but I rate evasiveness higher - ie Pendlebury, Dal Santo etc

A combination of both is deadly, ie Judd, Ablett (jnr)
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Re: Pace

Postby samoht » Tue 21 Mar 2017 3:04pm

Good discussion -
I also rate evasiveness higher - if it's the choice between one and the other.

But it's never black and white, of course, when you look at a side overall - the important thing is, overall, you don't want to be on the wrong end of a mismatch in pace (all else being equal - skill, evasiveness etc.. between your side and the opposing side).
You say this doesn't happen that often (being beaten by quicker opponents to the ball) - but there was a period in 2009 and 2010, when lower-ranked but pacier teams showed us up for our lack of pace - when it was obviously happening.

This is where balance is important.
And I still maintain that, in our midfield, we could use another pacy midfielder - for this reason: for balance (given its makeup - i.e., plenty of inside types).
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Re: Pace

Postby BigMart » Tue 21 Mar 2017 9:20pm

Unless of course that quicker player who beats you to the ball and fumbles it, gets tackled, and stuffs it up... or he tucks it under his arm, runs away into space, the whole team transitions into offensive running and then he chunks it over and you're killed on the turn over?!

Jack Steven or Sam Gilbert style

Do you know who was quick? Clint Jones, Brett Peake, Andrew Lovett...

Do you know who isn't or wasn't quick? Sam Mitchell, Joey Kennedy, Lenny Hayes, Jobe Watson

Every player has strengths, Attributes, weaknesses

But can they play?

That is the question...


Recent gun midfields
Hawthorn inside
Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis
Geelong inside
Selwood, Ling, Corey
Sydney
Parker, Kennedy, Jack
Freo
Fyfe, Mundy, Barlow
Coll
Pendlebury, Swan, Ball

Pace was not a huge factor in those midfields

Ball winning ability was
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Re: Pace

Postby samoht » Wed 22 Mar 2017 8:12am

It's not the be all and end all - but you do need it (pace) for balance. That's all.

Do we have enough in the midfield - maybe we do?

Even if you're a midfielder who can play - you could still be second to the ball - to a Hill, an Isaac Smith, etc., outside midfielders who can also play. There's inside and outside possessions to be won.
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Re: Pace

Postby Bluthy » Wed 22 Mar 2017 10:17am

Moods wrote:
White Winmar wrote:Wait until you see Ben Long's lateral movement. I don't know how fast he is in a straight line, but his evasive abilities are top class.


This!

My daughters both play netball at a high junior level and as a result I have watched numerous high level elite games in the past 2 years. To watch a game you would think that Maddie Robinson and Kim Ravillian were super quick. They are fast but appear faster because of their unbelievable change of direction - and change of speed (acceleration) There is a woman who warms the bench at their netball club (Collingwood Magpies) who is faster than both of them in a straight line.

I know they're different games, but the way I think about speed has changed as a consequence. Jack Steven has tremendous change of direction - short legs close to the ground helps I reckon. Roo has great straight line speed for a guy his size, but lateral movement is restricted due to long levers, and quite probably numerous knee issues over the years restricting him in that area. Straight line speed is good, but equally as important is change of direction. Combine speed with change of direction and it's almost impossible to combat. Think Gary Ablett Jnr in his prime - fast but not electric, but superb change of direction.

The point was made about Lenny Hayes and it was well made. Lenny had a brilliant side step. Who cares how fast he was, as long as he didn't get caught with the ball, which he rarely did. He cleared packs with evasiveness - obviously if you combined that with Chris Judd like speed Lenny would have been the greatest mid ever.


That's all valid points about evasiveness. But for me where genuine express/burst pace is becoming such a valuable asset is the ability to break through the increasing congestion and rings of defences that coaches set up all over the field. Around the ball they usually always have two lines of defence, one with guys going at the ball/the guy with the ball. IF they work it out through that, there are other guys set up as back up ring (and to the sides) to then step up to pressure/corall/tackle. The original tacklers who are now out of position drop back to then become that second ring of defence. And they ring-around-the-rosey until they get the ball back - thats why there is so much congestion now.

That burst speed can get through both lines quickly without the oppo able to get back in behind and then you have some open field which is increasingly rare. Its opens things up hugely. It can also will make the oppo back off some of their press around the ball, sometimes forcing a guy to sit back deeper which can give you some numerical advantage. Its just a great weapon to have up your sleeve to make the oppo back off a bit and be wary. Teams no doubt are always trying to keep a guy out the back of where Steven is in case he gets it and bursts through - you gotta stop him or he'll gain huge metres.

Likewise from the back half coaches will structure a press to have several lines of defence in case it gets through which is why they are so bold with forward presses now. You saw how hard it was to get in behind Swans who always seemed to have a sweeper guy timing his run to be that last line of defence. A guy who can run a straight line quick can break through the sweeper system and get the oppo running backward with their defensive structure in pieces and then anything can happen including lovely cheap goals.

Opening defensive strucutures up is so important now as they keep getting more complex and well drilled. So many goals come from turnovers because that is when defensive structures aren't fully in place. Express pace can open things up as well.

What I notice too is guys who run at express pace don't necessarily seem to lose their top speed when they get tired, they just can't run as far. But ordinary running guys will lose some of their top speed as they become fatigued and become noticeably slower - your legs becomes dead weights. Maybe something to do with the elasticity of the leg muscles/hammies of fast players. I think that is why in grand finals when players start getting exhausted by half-time, those express runners can open games up with huge plays as they still have their top speed and can run away from less fast players getting slower #anotherbluthycrazytheroy
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Re: Pace

Postby samoht » Wed 22 Mar 2017 10:38am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2p1sWo2IS8 ... here's a rib-breaking line-breaker
Have you read my latest ebook, The Fugitive Soldier?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Fugitive-Sold ... ve+Soldier
.. you can sample the first 2 chapters for free, by clicking on the above link.
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Re: Pace

Postby Moods » Wed 22 Mar 2017 2:07pm

Bluthy wrote:
Moods wrote:
White Winmar wrote:Wait until you see Ben Long's lateral movement. I don't know how fast he is in a straight line, but his evasive abilities are top class.


This!

My daughters both play netball at a high junior level and as a result I have watched numerous high level elite games in the past 2 years. To watch a game you would think that Maddie Robinson and Kim Ravillian were super quick. They are fast but appear faster because of their unbelievable change of direction - and change of speed (acceleration) There is a woman who warms the bench at their netball club (Collingwood Magpies) who is faster than both of them in a straight line.

I know they're different games, but the way I think about speed has changed as a consequence. Jack Steven has tremendous change of direction - short legs close to the ground helps I reckon. Roo has great straight line speed for a guy his size, but lateral movement is restricted due to long levers, and quite probably numerous knee issues over the years restricting him in that area. Straight line speed is good, but equally as important is change of direction. Combine speed with change of direction and it's almost impossible to combat. Think Gary Ablett Jnr in his prime - fast but not electric, but superb change of direction.

The point was made about Lenny Hayes and it was well made. Lenny had a brilliant side step. Who cares how fast he was, as long as he didn't get caught with the ball, which he rarely did. He cleared packs with evasiveness - obviously if you combined that with Chris Judd like speed Lenny would have been the greatest mid ever.


That's all valid points about evasiveness. But for me where genuine express/burst pace is becoming such a valuable asset is the ability to break through the increasing congestion and rings of defences that coaches set up all over the field. Around the ball they usually always have two lines of defence, one with guys going at the ball/the guy with the ball. IF they work it out through that, there are other guys set up as back up ring (and to the sides) to then step up to pressure/corall/tackle. The original tacklers who are now out of position drop back to then become that second ring of defence. And they ring-around-the-rosey until they get the ball back - thats why there is so much congestion now.

That burst speed can get through both lines quickly without the oppo able to get back in behind and then you have some open field which is increasingly rare. Its opens things up hugely. It can also will make the oppo back off some of their press around the ball, sometimes forcing a guy to sit back deeper which can give you some numerical advantage. Its just a great weapon to have up your sleeve to make the oppo back off a bit and be wary. Teams no doubt are always trying to keep a guy out the back of where Steven is in case he gets it and bursts through - you gotta stop him or he'll gain huge metres.

Likewise from the back half coaches will structure a press to have several lines of defence in case it gets through which is why they are so bold with forward presses now. You saw how hard it was to get in behind Swans who always seemed to have a sweeper guy timing his run to be that last line of defence. A guy who can run a straight line quick can break through the sweeper system and get the oppo running backward with their defensive structure in pieces and then anything can happen including lovely cheap goals.

Opening defensive strucutures up is so important now as they keep getting more complex and well drilled. So many goals come from turnovers because that is when defensive structures aren't fully in place. Express pace can open things up as well.

What I notice too is guys who run at express pace don't necessarily seem to lose their top speed when they get tired, they just can't run as far. But ordinary running guys will lose some of their top speed as they become fatigued and become noticeably slower - your legs becomes dead weights. Maybe something to do with the elasticity of the leg muscles/hammies of fast players. I think that is why in grand finals when players start getting exhausted by half-time, those express runners can open games up with huge plays as they still have their top speed and can run away from less fast players getting slower #anotherbluthycrazytheroy


You make some good points Bluthy. I guess the question is what would you prefer, a footballer who is a little slow or a superb athlete with not the smarts. Lenny Hayes vrs Lewis Jetta. The most important asset of a footballer is being able to find the ball. Once they have that down pat, there other skills/attributes are scrutinised. A player who can find the ball and super quick is almost always elite for the reasons you posted. It's a very rare commodity, because blokes with blistering speed are often snapped up in all sports and blistering speed isn't that common to begin with. I'm not sure the doggies had a great deal of line breaker, JJ aside. I reckon with Steven Gresham and Wright we're ok. I wouldn't describe us as a slow team. I don't agree with the OP in that pace isn't an issue for our team.
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Re: Pace

Postby spert » Wed 22 Mar 2017 2:26pm

The most important thing is to get possession of the ball, then dispose of it efficiently. If you have players that don't chase and pressure their opponents, especially forwards, then it's easy to look quick as you run out of your HB line and link up to other players who are not being chased. My concern is more to do with clearances rather than a player who can run hard on the outside- we need to really improve our clearance work around the ground over last season.
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Re: Pace

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sat 25 Mar 2017 6:25pm

We are slow and it matters.
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Re: Pace

Postby BadRossco » Sat 25 Mar 2017 6:38pm

How true we are a pack of plodders with poor skills by foot, it will be a long year, disappointing to have our hopes for the season blown away in round one
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Re: Pace

Postby Enrico_Misso » Sat 25 Mar 2017 8:48pm

Even Jack Steven looked slow tonight.
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Re: Pace

Postby saintsRrising » Sat 25 Mar 2017 8:53pm

When you have the lack of effort on display tonight you are always going to look like s***. Pace is useless if effort is not there.
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Re: Pace

Postby White Winmar » Sat 25 Mar 2017 8:56pm

We didn't look slow in the first quarter.
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Re: Pace

Postby magnifisaint » Sat 25 Mar 2017 8:57pm

Melbourne aren't fast but cut us up. Disposal efficiency is a worry. Got killed in the midfield.
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Re: Pace

Postby SemperFidelis » Sat 25 Mar 2017 9:02pm

White Winmar wrote:We didn't look slow in the first quarter.


I agree. We got smashed in the sauna after half time; Melbourne handled the conditions way better - we need to work out why.

But we aren't doomed to be slow.
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