Pace

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Pace

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 19 Mar 2017 1:24pm

This has been a topic of discussion for as long as I can remember on here.
At least as far back as the now notorious Andrew Lovett trade at the end of 2009.
7 years on, a lot has changed and most of the list has been turned over but this is still a live topic.

I think one big difference in the sides on GF day was Jason Johannisen. The Swans didnt really have an equivalent player meaning as hard as they worked - the Dogs defence was able to hold up and not be caught out.
Similarly Brad Hill was good for the Hawks in two Grand Finals. Isaac Smith. Even Leroy Jetta had a day out in 2012.

Jack Steven carries a hell of a load in this department already. Obviously we know the club has gone after Nathan Freeman. We also have Daniel McKenzie. Nate Wright is quick. I am not 100% sure about Ben Long - but he may be quick as well? Obviously pace alone is not enough - you also need to be a good kick and a good all round player with some defensive skills as well.

My question is for the forum is : Is this still a weakness for us or are we comfortable that one of the above will come through for us when we need them?
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Re: Pace

Postby magnifisaint » Sun 19 Mar 2017 1:41pm

Not a problem. Ball movement = pace
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Re: Pace

Postby White Winmar » Sun 19 Mar 2017 2:08pm

No human has ever run as fast as a football moves through the air. Precise ball movement is the key. Teams who move it well always look quick. The Hawks had few racehorses (Cyril, Smith, Hill?), the Swines (Jetta, Rohan now, but not for the premierships), Geelong, where I can't think of anyone who had electrifying pace. Perhaps Wocjinski at a stretch. Yes, JJ made a difference last year, but apart from him, the WBs are hardly overburdened with leg speed. The key to their success was the "quick hands" style that allowed them to clear stoppages and congestion. That's the key. It would be nice to have a couple of quick players to complement our inside mids, but criticisms of our midfield having too much "sameness" are a bit off the mark. Give me someone who can find the ball and dispose of it well, who also makes great decisions, over a racehorse who can't. Yes, Dangerfield, Fyfe, or Martin would be wonderful additions to our midfield, because they have some "burst" speed, but none of them are exceptionally quick. What they are is ball winners, good with their disposal, and versatile. Quality and all round skill over speed any day for me.
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Re: Pace

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 19 Mar 2017 2:09pm

magnifisaint wrote:Not a problem. Ball movement = pace

You should be an AFL coach. We'd win the flag every year.
I hadn't realised it was all so simple?

All clubs are trying to move the ball fast but a bunch of fat blokes with slick hands aren't going to win you any games of footy.
So no I don't accept your simplified response.
What happens when the fat blokes come up against a side with equally good ball movement but can also run?
Who wins?

This it the AFL - all sides can move the ball quick. All sides have good skills when under no pressure.
But good ball movement is easily shut down by the opposition if you arent able to get out of or over defensive zones.
The hypothetical team of fat blokes would get cut off every single time - even if they had lightning hands and perfect kicking skills. They would never score a single goal and would lose by 300 points.
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Re: Pace

Postby saintsRrising » Sun 19 Mar 2017 2:21pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:but a bunch of fat blokes .


Can you name even one AFL team that consists of a bunch of fat blokes?
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Re: Pace

Postby BigMart » Sun 19 Mar 2017 2:22pm

What a joke that was

We're a slowish side

If we bring in 1 player (out of 18) we'll be good?!

So we pay overs due to desperation and end losing out again. That year (after being the best team) was the worst draft imaginable.

We let go three stalwarts at 25yo for zero... which were picks 2, 5, 21 in the 'super draft'

Gave up a first round pick (Pittard) for zero - Lovett

Drafted in
Nicholas Winmar
Jesse Smith
Adam Pattison
Will Johnson

Tore the fabric of the club

The highlight of 2009 off season

Brett Peake
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Re: Pace

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 19 Mar 2017 2:34pm

saintsRrising wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:but a bunch of fat blokes .


Can you name even one AFL team that consists of a bunch of fat blokes?


I am saying all sides are trying to move the ball quick at AFL level.
All sides are fairly even.
Just saying 'fast ball movement' is the answer to winning a flag ignores about 100 other factors. All 18 clubs are going for fast ball movement.
The 'fat blokes' was a hypothetical illustration to demonstrate that 'fast ball movement' alone is clearly not enough.
The hypothetical fat blokes with perfect kicking and the worlds slickest hands wouldnt stand a chance in the AFL. So obviously the game is about more than just 'fast ball movement'.

My question is how much of a factor pace actually is and whether or not we have it on our list at present. Seems a reasonable question?

I am open to people saying pace is not much of a factor and not to worry about it - but you cant say it is zero? It is obviously at least a minor factor. Look how Nathan Wright was able to get us out of defence last week when he ran out of a zone and kicked over the next one in to space.
Just handballing real fast in circles doesnt get you far when there are 14 opposition players surrounding you. At some point you need to get out of that traffic.
I think in a highly congested game like we have now - then pace is as important as ever. At least having 1 or 2 guys on the end of the chain who can find space.
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Re: Pace

Postby Darth Vader » Sun 19 Mar 2017 2:44pm

Don't know how we compare to others, but I reckon this is the paciest I can remember us being. And the best depth. But the least stars.
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Re: Pace

Postby saynta » Sun 19 Mar 2017 2:51pm

BigMart wrote:What a joke that was

We're a slowish side

If we bring in 1 player (out of 18) we'll be good?!

So we pay overs due to desperation and end losing out again. That year (after being the best team) was the worst draft imaginable.

We let go three stalwarts at 25yo for zero... which were picks 2, 5, 21 in the 'super draft'

Gave up a first round pick (Pittard) for zero - Lovett

Drafted in
Nicholas Winmar
Jesse Smith
Adam Pattison
Will Johnson

Tore the fabric of the club

The highlight of 2009 off season

Brett Peake


So true and very sad.

Great post bm, great post
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Re: Pace

Postby SaintPav » Sun 19 Mar 2017 3:29pm

Get over it
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Re: Pace

Postby saintsRrising » Sun 19 Mar 2017 4:02pm

Darth Vader wrote:Don't know how we compare to others, but I reckon this is the paciest I can remember us being. And the best depth. But the least stars.


Yes the least stars as in elite talent is our main problem now. Let's hope that some of our players step up into that category this season.
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Re: Pace

Postby Joffa Burns » Sun 19 Mar 2017 4:28pm

JJ beaks the lines because of pace, agility, timing of when to go and intent to back yourself and go.

Stanley is faster than any man of his size in the AFL but doesn't have the lateral movement to take full advantage of his gift.

Pace is an absolute weapon if you have the package to use it to its potential.

In junior state level football this year I saw two state 100meter finalists look quick but not overly quick on the field but two kids who are very quick but wouldn't be top 20 in the state in a 100 look lightening on the field with their agility and lateral movement.
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Re: Pace

Postby White Winmar » Sun 19 Mar 2017 5:05pm

Wait until you see Ben Long's lateral movement. I don't know how fast he is in a straight line, but his evasive abilities are top class. I think with Steven, Gresham, McKenzie and Montagna, we have some leg speed. If Long is good enough, we can add him to the mix. Think Lenny Hayes. Not super quick, but that step! Banger was quick, especially pre-knee reco, but it was his evasive ability that made him so dangerous to the opposition. Couldn't tackle him in a phone box.

Gresham is quick, then add in his ability to change direction and we have a real weapon on our hands. Long looks to have plenty of time with the ball in hand, always a good sign and one that signifies quality. Like Dal, who always seemed to be going half pace, but hardly ever got caught. Another quick thinker, with superb evasive skills and deadly efficient disposal. I'd prefer players with quick minds to those with quick legs. Do you reckon Greg Williams would get a game in our midfield even though he was as slow as a glacier? I think we would squeeze him in.
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Re: Pace

Postby magnifisaint » Sun 19 Mar 2017 8:04pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:
magnifisaint wrote:Not a problem. Ball movement = pace

You should be an AFL coach. We'd win the flag every year.
I hadn't realised it was all so simple?

All clubs are trying to move the ball fast but a bunch of fat blokes with slick hands aren't going to win you any games of footy.
So no I don't accept your simplified response.
What happens when the fat blokes come up against a side with equally good ball movement but can also run?
Who wins?

This it the AFL - all sides can move the ball quick. All sides have good skills when under no pressure.
But good ball movement is easily shut down by the opposition if you arent able to get out of or over defensive zones.
The hypothetical team of fat blokes would get cut off every single time - even if they had lightning hands and perfect kicking skills. They would never score a single goal and would lose by 300 points.

Doesn't matter how fast a team is if they don't use the ball well
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Re: Pace

Postby Bluthy » Sun 19 Mar 2017 8:40pm

Yo settle yo self cos I gunna lay another crazy theory of mine on yars.

American football has line of scrimmage that is getting pretty similar to trying to get it out of the back half against a press. In American football they can either

1) Have the Quarter back pass the ball to try to get a completed pass - similar to kicking the footy to keep possession
2) The QB hands of to a running back to try and break through the line - similar to having faster runners in Aussie rules

They mix it up between running the ball and passing the ball in a constant cat and mouse game with the oppo dropping deeper to cover the receivers which opens up space for the runner and then vice versa.

I think that's what having some express runners give you in Aussie rules - its a different form of attack that can run through lines and zones and shake the oppo out of its defensive patterns. They are forced to run off their man or out of their zone to get the runner and that opens up other players. It seems particularly handy in finals where there is a lot of man on man defence and its hard to keep possession with passing. Also exhaustion sets in in the second half of prelims and grannies and those who have the endurance and express pace become even harder to catch.Having fast runners who can break the lines and congestion can opens things up enormously. Coaches love it when the oppo is forced to run backwards - they will always be out of shape having to do that.

The problem with quick runners is they often struggle to dispose well at high pace or have bad decision making. Which is why someone like Judd was such a valuable freak with express pace and pinpoint delivery. Lots of people said JJ's disposal in the grannie was ordinary but he was just so valuable with that line breaking run it over came it.

Savage gives us lots of run and gun, just needs a bit more composure with the footy but not sure he'll ever find it. We tried Wright in that role but his decision making was way too poor and I can't see us going back to it. McKenzie has some dash but hasn't shown great disposal yet but they'll keep persisting with him. Long had some dash of the half back before he started playing forward apparently. Phillips could be a dark horse with some dash and endurance. I doubt Freeman will have that express burst pace after so many hammy problems but you never know.

I guess all teams are looking for those express pace draftees but they have to show enough footy nouse as well - thats the tricky balancing act. I'd like to see us take a chance on a draftee or rookie with express pace but maybe is a bit off it other places. I've heard one or two of the Irish boys are quite quick so maybe thats what we are trying.

You can also use Geelong/Bulldogs style kamikaze handball to move the ball in chain links and move it quickly and unpredictably and get it out of congestion. But you need guys with talented hands - step up Mr Steele and Mr Ross please.
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Re: Pace

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 19 Mar 2017 9:29pm

magnifisaint wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:
magnifisaint wrote:Not a problem. Ball movement = pace

You should be an AFL coach. We'd win the flag every year.
I hadn't realised it was all so simple?

All clubs are trying to move the ball fast but a bunch of fat blokes with slick hands aren't going to win you any games of footy.
So no I don't accept your simplified response.
What happens when the fat blokes come up against a side with equally good ball movement but can also run?
Who wins?

This it the AFL - all sides can move the ball quick. All sides have good skills when under no pressure.
But good ball movement is easily shut down by the opposition if you arent able to get out of or over defensive zones.
The hypothetical team of fat blokes would get cut off every single time - even if they had lightning hands and perfect kicking skills. They would never score a single goal and would lose by 300 points.

Doesn't matter how fast a team is if they don't use the ball well


Of course. 100% agree. Usain Bolt is probably hopeless at footy. I am just saying what is the right team balance and do we have it?
If Jack Steven was 3 metres slower over 20m would he be the player is now? Of course not. He uses his speed to get out of traffic all the time. If he had identical ball use skills but was the same pace as Luke Delaney - he wouldnt be an AFL player.
I think it goes without saying that ball use is important and every one of the 18 clubs is trying to improve their ball use.
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Re: Pace

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 19 Mar 2017 9:33pm

Bluthy wrote:Yo settle yo self cos I gunna lay another crazy theory of mine on yars.

American football has line of scrimmage that is getting pretty similar to trying to get it out of the back half against a press. In American football they can either

1) Have the Quarter back pass the ball to try to get a completed pass - similar to kicking the footy to keep possession
2) The QB hands of to a running back to try and break through the line - similar to having faster runners in Aussie rules

They mix it up between running the ball and passing the ball in a constant cat and mouse game with the oppo dropping deeper to cover the receivers which opens up space for the runner and then vice versa.

I think that's what having some express runners give you in Aussie rules - its a different form of attack that can run through lines and zones and shake the oppo out of its defensive patterns. They are forced to run off their man or out of their zone to get the runner and that opens up other players. It seems particularly handy in finals where there is a lot of man on man defence and its hard to keep possession with passing. Also exhaustion sets in in the second half of prelims and grannies and those who have the endurance and express pace become even harder to catch.Having fast runners who can break the lines and congestion can opens things up enormously. Coaches love it when the oppo is forced to run backwards - they will always be out of shape having to do that.

The problem with quick runners is they often struggle to dispose well at high pace or have bad decision making. Which is why someone like Judd was such a valuable freak with express pace and pinpoint delivery. Lots of people said JJ's disposal in the grannie was ordinary but he was just so valuable with that line breaking run it over came it.

Savage gives us lots of run and gun, just needs a bit more composure with the footy but not sure he'll ever find it. We tried Wright in that role but his decision making was way too poor and I can't see us going back to it. McKenzie has some dash but hasn't shown great disposal yet but they'll keep persisting with him. Long had some dash of the half back before he started playing forward apparently. Phillips could be a dark horse with some dash and endurance. I doubt Freeman will have that express burst pace after so many hammy problems but you never know.

I guess all teams are looking for those express pace draftees but they have to show enough footy nouse as well - thats the tricky balancing act. I'd like to see us take a chance on a draftee or rookie with express pace but maybe is a bit off it other places. I've heard one or two of the Irish boys are quite quick so maybe thats what we are trying.

You can also use Geelong/Bulldogs style kamikaze handball to move the ball in chain links and move it quickly and unpredictably and get it out of congestion. But you need guys with talented hands - step up Mr Steele and Mr Ross please.


Great post.
Thats how I see it. You dont always use your runners. Sometimes accurate kicking long or short is the way to go. Sometimes handball chains are the way to go. Sometimes a long bomb. But you need a few options so that the opposition cant settle on one defence they can learn to cut off. If you have 3 or 4 different ways to move the ball quick then surely that is better than 2 or 3?
Thats why you need a couple of bloke who can just gun and run like Johannissen. He doesnt always do it and they dont always use him. The pacey player has to learn when to run and when to give it off. It is a skill of the game. An individual skill and a team skill.
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Re: Pace

Postby Con Gorozidis » Sun 19 Mar 2017 9:35pm

I think one of the two Irish kids has genuine express pace.
Whether he can learn the other skills of the game - who knows.
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Re: Pace

Postby Bluthy » Sun 19 Mar 2017 9:52pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:
Bluthy wrote:Yo settle yo self cos I gunna lay another crazy theory of mine on yars.

American football has line of scrimmage that is getting pretty similar to trying to get it out of the back half against a press. In American football they can either

1) Have the Quarter back pass the ball to try to get a completed pass - similar to kicking the footy to keep possession
2) The QB hands of to a running back to try and break through the line - similar to having faster runners in Aussie rules

They mix it up between running the ball and passing the ball in a constant cat and mouse game with the oppo dropping deeper to cover the receivers which opens up space for the runner and then vice versa.

I think that's what having some express runners give you in Aussie rules - its a different form of attack that can run through lines and zones and shake the oppo out of its defensive patterns. They are forced to run off their man or out of their zone to get the runner and that opens up other players. It seems particularly handy in finals where there is a lot of man on man defence and its hard to keep possession with passing. Also exhaustion sets in in the second half of prelims and grannies and those who have the endurance and express pace become even harder to catch.Having fast runners who can break the lines and congestion can opens things up enormously. Coaches love it when the oppo is forced to run backwards - they will always be out of shape having to do that.

The problem with quick runners is they often struggle to dispose well at high pace or have bad decision making. Which is why someone like Judd was such a valuable freak with express pace and pinpoint delivery. Lots of people said JJ's disposal in the grannie was ordinary but he was just so valuable with that line breaking run it over came it.

Savage gives us lots of run and gun, just needs a bit more composure with the footy but not sure he'll ever find it. We tried Wright in that role but his decision making was way too poor and I can't see us going back to it. McKenzie has some dash but hasn't shown great disposal yet but they'll keep persisting with him. Long had some dash of the half back before he started playing forward apparently. Phillips could be a dark horse with some dash and endurance. I doubt Freeman will have that express burst pace after so many hammy problems but you never know.

I guess all teams are looking for those express pace draftees but they have to show enough footy nouse as well - thats the tricky balancing act. I'd like to see us take a chance on a draftee or rookie with express pace but maybe is a bit off it other places. I've heard one or two of the Irish boys are quite quick so maybe thats what we are trying.

You can also use Geelong/Bulldogs style kamikaze handball to move the ball in chain links and move it quickly and unpredictably and get it out of congestion. But you need guys with talented hands - step up Mr Steele and Mr Ross please.


Great post.
Thats how I see it. You dont always use your runners. Sometimes accurate kicking long or short is the way to go. Sometimes handball chains are the way to go. Sometimes a long bomb. But you need a few options so that the opposition cant settle on one defence they can learn to cut off. If you have 3 or 4 different ways to move the ball quick then surely that is better than 2 or 3?
Thats why you need a couple of bloke who can just gun and run like Johannissen. He doesnt always do it and they dont always use him. The pacey player has to learn when to run and when to give it off. It is a skill of the game. An individual skill and a team skill.


O'Brien - Lumumbia or whatever - was great for Collingwood like that. He'd get those legs pumping and would split defences and be damn hard to catch. They exhuast the oppo by making them chase so hard.

Acres has shown that ability to break lines with his strength and momentum. When he gets the train up to high speed he is damn hard to stop. Bit like Gilbo at his peak, he could carry it to get a lot of yardage first then a nice long kick and you've got from deep in defence to your forward line. Just that Joey and Gilbo are losing pace each year and we need some young fresh blood to take on those roles. Robbo gives some run but isn't necessarily the quickest. M.ckenzie probably the best prospect in that running back position - lets hope they play him a bit this year
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Re: Pace

Postby Jacks Back » Sun 19 Mar 2017 10:31pm

Don't forget Hale!
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Re: Pace

Postby stkmo » Sun 19 Mar 2017 10:41pm

Would love to have Adam Saad in the team.
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Re: Pace

Postby saintsRrising » Mon 20 Mar 2017 12:54am

Bluthy wrote:Yo settle yo self cos I gunna lay another crazy theory of mine on yars.

.


A pretty good summary IMO.
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Re: Pace

Postby samoht » Mon 20 Mar 2017 9:49am

Pace is important.
Think of Essendon a few years back when we were a strong team and they were bottom of the table - and they beat us with pace.

We had the slow stars and they had the quick whipper-snappers. They made us look pedestrian - pretty ordinary.

We are very well represented with inside midfielders - but I think another midfielder with pace would be good for balance.
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Re: Pace

Postby saynta » Mon 20 Mar 2017 1:45pm

SaintPav wrote:Get over it


:wink:
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Re: Pace

Postby BigMart » Mon 20 Mar 2017 5:33pm

Is that an ironic post

Pace is important...

Remember when Essendon were on the bottom of the ladder and we were on the top, and they beat us with pace????

Is that saying pace is important or not???

They beat us, so what?! We beat Carlton in 1995... sometimes teams upset teams, even a stopped clock is the right time twice a day....

But whilst Essendon had some pace in 2009 they were s***
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