The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Complete

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The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Complete

Postby skeptic » Sat 18 Mar 2017 11:31pm

Hello all, some may recall that I floated the idea of the formation of the SS Council some months back to help determine right and wrong once and for all with regards to some of the most polarising issues our great club has encountered over the last 17 odd years...

Here's the original thread for those that missed it
http://www.saintsational.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=91711&hilit=council

Here below I'm posting a quick little blurb of silliness to outline what this is and then the questions and results.

A few quick points before I get started...
- This was a lot of work so please share any observations and feedback (be nice).
- In order to ensure the post isn't too long in the first instance, I'm breaking it up into two parts of 13
- Not everyone answered every question so the percentages jump a around a little bit
- These answers are final


And there came a day unlike any other, the Saintsational God came down from above the clouds and said ‘Skeptic, I tire of the endless debate caused from forumites periodically raising the same few topics over and over again. You must stop this’.
‘But why me my lord?’ I asked.
And he said: ‘Not you you imbecile. Matters such as these cannot possibly be definitively concluded based on the whims of just one man or woman. You must form a council. Travel far and wide and find me the greatest St.Kilda minds the world over and recruit them to form this council of legends’.
And I asked, ‘is there any particular criteria?’
He responded: ‘No. Take anyone you can find. Remember no true Saint is ever to be denied either their opinion or they’re place in history’.
‘What do mean?’ I quizzed.
“Quiet you fool and listen’ he snapped. ‘Remember that only mere centuries ago in the era of monarchies, people used to believe that their King was God’s representative on earth. Now I’m not saying that members of the Saintsaitional Council are better then regular Saints supporters, only that they should be held in a higher regard and that their opinion is more valuable. In order to make this easier for you to understand, I’ve mapped out the level of regard that all Saints are held in for for you. The order goes from top to bottom: Saints legends. Then Saints premiership players. Saints Premiership coaches. Saintsational Council members. 200+ game players then coaches. Foundation Club members, Reserved ticket members, regular members, non-member supporters.
‘I see’ I said. ‘And how will we know what to answer?’
‘Geeeez. You really are thick aren’t you?’ he hit back. ‘Remember Moses? See these bloody stone tablets I’m holding? Yes, they’re the questions you moron. Type them out and send them on.
Somberly I considered this turn of events and after much consideration I told him it would be done.
‘One last thing’ he said. ‘Skeptic, as the messenger of the Saintsational God you will not get a vote as you cannot be trusted to remain impartial. However, as the duly nominated Chancellor of The Saintsational Council, you must ensure that these matters are put to rest once and for all. So therefore if there is a tie, break it’.
‘Your will be done my lord’.

Results
38 forumites volunteered for and received copies of the survey but ultimately only 22 successfully completed and returned it in a timely manner.

The members of the Saintsational Council are:
President, The Fireman, Stevie, Magnifisaint, Saints43, St. Chris, Shrodes, Mr. Magic, 8Bloggs, Meher Baba, Desertsaint, Whitewinmar, Mr. Six O’Clock, Saint3D, Bluthy (Sir Bluthiest the Wizard), Older Saint, Enrico_Misso, SaintsRising, Con Gorozidis, Scallop, St. Loxton, and Bernard Shakey


1. The appointment of Malcolm Blight as senior coach was:
36% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- A fairy tale. We didn’t do our due diligence on Malcolm’s style, his vision and leadership style. We were seduced by and sold the farm for the emperor’s new clothes
22.5% of respondents said:
- A positive for the club on membership, excitement, sponsorship and recruitment alone
13.5% of respondents said:
- A coup. He was a proven master coach that knew what it took to win premierships -
9% of respondents said:
- Was a good idea but we had no idea the guy was going to just hang his shoes up

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- A mistake. We needed an experienced, hard working up and comer with something to prove
- Messiah complex, was only in it for the money and openly disdained our club
- Was a positive for the club but a fairy tale too due to lack of due diligence
- Was positive for the club but a mistake as we needed a hardworking up and comer



2. The decision to sack Malcolm Blight was:
72% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- Necessary. He was taking the piss: hardly there, ridiculous statements to media, not attending appointments, letting his assistants run training, the team continuing to underperform etc.
13.5% of respondents said:
- A situation he created by going rogue and not working with the board
9% of respondents said:
- A rash decision. Just because we didn’t understand the plan didn’t mean it was wrong. This was the sign of a weak minded or corrupt board.
4.5% of respondents said:
- Ill timed and should have occurred at season’s end

Nobody thought it was a terrible mistake that would have led us to greatness if we persevered



3. Grant Thomas’ appointment was:
63% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- Completely necessary at least for the short term. We needed a great St. Kilda man that new the problems of the St. Kilda FC better than anyone else to fix the mess.
9% of respondents said:
- Completely unethical. An appointment of one of the guys by the guys.

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents nominated one of the following:
- A missed opportunity to get a great coach that had done the hard yards
- The appointment of the best candidate available
- All of the above (not any of the answers below)
- Opportunistic, needed an interim coach at short notice, board liked what they saw
- Unethical but did a good job
- Necessary. Right man for the job.


4. Sacking Matthew Capuano midseason:
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- Inconsequential. He was past it and a bad influence. One way or another he was on the way out
18% of respondents said:
- Was a big statement. He was getting smashed in the ruck by a young Josh Fraser and was upstaged by an even younger Matt Maguire. We don’t tolerate mediocrity anymore
13.5% of respondents said:
- Was idiotic. We could have utilized the depth and done it end of season without the controversy
9% of respondents said:
- Was short sighted. If Capuano could have turned it around, he would have been a handy player to have on the list in the seasons that followed

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Felt it was the right decision for the list and supported it
- The move midseason was unnecessary and should have waited until season’s end



5. In hindsight, trading in Aaron Hamil was:
54% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- A great decision. His leadership and commitment was a major part in us turning our culture around
40.5% of respondents said:
- The correct decision but didn’t pay off. He should have been a great recruit for us but the reality was he didn’t play enough football for us
4.5% of respondents said:
- That it was both the correct decision but did not ultimately pay off due to Hamil’s lack of games

Nobody felt that Aaron Hamil was too expensive and that the trade cost us Darryl Wakelin or pick 4 that could have been Shaun Burgoyne, Drew Petrie or Scott Thompson.



6. Playing home games in Tasmania:
63% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- Short term pain. Over time we would have perfected our travel routine, playing in wet/windy conditions etc. and this may have paid off in the 09/10 era both on and off-field
27% of respondents said:
- Sounded great but it simply wasn’t working out

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Was a cash cow that would have secured our financial future and was worth dropping games
- Was a good long term strategy to that tapped deeper into our supporter base

Nobody felt that it cost us a premiership in 2004 because we lost our advantage and dropped games we should have won both that year and the following. It’s ultimate result was to send us to play finals at the Gabba and Adelaide instead of at home.



7. Part 1 - The decision to leave Moorabbin was:
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- Required. The local council was stymieing us at every turn and it was leaving then returning that forced them to have to work with us
40.5% of respondents said:
- A disaster. Time, money and resources wasted only for us to return

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Scandalous. Moorabbin is our home and we should have toughed it out no matter
- They were unsure


7. Part 2 - The Saints should have relocated to:
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that they should have moved:
- Nowhere. They should have weathered the storm
18% of respondents said:
- St. Kilda should be in St. Kilda
13.5% of respondents said:
- Seaford. No matter what else happened, the reality is we got elite training facilities that we wouldn’t have otherwise gotten
9% of respondents said:
- The decision to seek the South East corridor was the correct one. Frankston is where we should have been.

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Anywhere Bayside/South East
- Unsure

Nobody felt that the left wing idea of Casey Fields was a good one that had everything we needed.



8. Trading Peter Everite was:
40.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- Was the right move executed poorly. The mistake was what we got for him. We should have bitten the bullet a season earlier and got picks in the super draft
27% of respondents said:
- The right move. The guy was a douche, impacted negatively on the team, had high trade value and was past his peek
18% of respondents said:
- A mistake that cost us a premiership. Everite was the missing piece in 04/05
9% of respondents said:
- Undignified. Spider was a great Saint and should have finished his career in the Red, White and Black leading in the next generation
4.5% of respondents said:
- It was all of the above factors


9. The Rotating Captain’s System:
63% of the Saintsational Council determined that the Rotating Captain’s System:
Developed great leaders. Ball, Hayes, Hamil, and Roo all took big steps forward in their own development
9% of respondents said:
It failed. A club only has one captain, the players all look to the leader

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Was a joke that embarrassed the club
- The belief that the coach in the system gave the players the belief that that system worked
- Worth the experiment
- Innovative and a positive, but robbed Lenny of years as Captain when he was the best choice
- Right solution at the time
- Red herring – a single captain is best and growing leadership is about more than the title



10. If the Saints had won the prelim vs Port in 2004:
58.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- We’d have won our second premiership the following week
27% of respondents said:
- Who knows?
9% of respondents said:
- We’d have been humbled by Brisbane again. We weren’t ready.
4.5% of respondents said:
- We were a fair chance of winning but it would have been easier for the lions.



11. Grant Thomas’ sacking was:
31.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that it was:
- warranted. He was sold to us as an interim coach and he couldn’t turn it around. It was time for a more experienced AFL coach that could take us up the next step
22.5% of respondents said:
- A result of personal vendettas and internal politics. He was the victim
22.5% of respondents said:
- Due. He was only meant to be an interim coach
13.5% of respondents said:
- Premature. He didn’t have the opportunity to finish his plan
9% of respondents said:
- Brought on himself. Controversy just followed that man around



12. The legacy of Grant Thomas’ and his time at our football club:
22.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that is:
- Underachievement. He built us a premiership list but lacked the coaching ability to ever get us over the line
18% of respondents said:
- Grant Thomas was a great leader that turned the club around but he was a weak tactician who was finished by the time he was sacked
18% of respondents said:
- Grant Thomas planted the seeds that Ross Lyon harvested and never got the chance to realize his plan, and he doesn’t get the respect he deserves
13.5% of respondents said:
- He only meant to be an interim coach. Had he stepped aside in 03 or gone into a head of football type role, history would be very different for the better
9% of respondents said:
- His legacy is a combination of being a great leader that turned the club around, underachieving due to lacking the ability to get us over, and planting the seeds that Ross Lyon harvested.

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- All of the above
- He was a great coach with out of the box ideas ahead of his time
- His legacy is a combination of being a great leader that turned the club around, underachieving due to lacking the ability to get us over, and that he was only meant to be an interim coach with things likely to have worked out better had he stepped aside at the end of 03
- Bringing great change



13. Tom Lynch:
58% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- He was never given a fair go at the Saints
27% of respondents said:
- He may have been poorly developed but Jack Newnes will be a better player for us
9% of respondents said:
- He didn’t fit into our set up
4.5% of respondents said:
- All of the above
Last edited by skeptic on Tue 21 Mar 2017 11:25am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby bigcarl » Sun 19 Mar 2017 1:48am

A great read Skeptic. Well done
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby stevie » Sun 19 Mar 2017 8:27am

Nice work bro!
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Reporter: How does it feel to be putting on the whole world?
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Paul: We aren't really putting you on.
George: Just a bit of it.
John: How does it feel to be put on?
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby bigcarl » Sun 19 Mar 2017 8:46am

GT remains a controversial figure.

What was the council's view on the legacy Ross Lyon left the club?
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby skeptic » Sun 19 Mar 2017 9:07am

bigcarl wrote:GT remains a controversial figure.

What was the council's view on the legacy Ross Lyon left the club?


I'll post that up after work today...

The second half of he survey is where all the juice is :wink:
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby Enrico_Misso » Sun 19 Mar 2017 2:24pm

Enjoying this thread.
Well done Skeptic on all your hard yards.

(Just hope it doesn't get hijacked into a GT sacred cow debate!)
"Understand that you are all custodians of the St Kilda Football Club...you are responsible for making the difficult decisions to make this Club great. Those decisions will not always be popular, for popular decisions are easily made - but those that will truly make us great are those that challenge us most." - Allan Jeans as told to Chris Pelchen 2012.
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby BackFromUSA » Sun 19 Mar 2017 3:29pm

great stuff
AwayInUSA no longer ... have based myself back in Melbourne for a decade of Saintsational Success (with regular trips back to the USA)

"Saintsational Player Sponsor 2007 - 2012"
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby mr six o'clock » Sun 19 Mar 2017 4:44pm

Nice monologue !
In red white and black from 73
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby 8bloggs » Mon 20 Mar 2017 6:13pm

Great job Skeptic, thanks.
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby skeptic » Tue 21 Mar 2017 11:04am

Enrico_Misso wrote:
(Just hope it doesn't get hijacked into a GT sacred cow debate!)


It can't because it's been written now :wink:
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby skeptic » Tue 21 Mar 2017 11:16am

The surprising tidbits of the first part of the survey...

The 72% in agreeing with Blight's sacking was close to the biggest consensus of the survey...
I guess it's no surprise with everything that came out after but for all those that lived though that era, whoa that was big.

I was really shocked that nearly 50% thought the whole Matthew Capuano thing was inconsequential - to me, I thought that was a huge moment for the club. One that redefined what we were about... who would have thought I was wrong.

I also thought it was interesting that nearly 50% of the council thought that the decision to leave Moorabbin was necessary but at the same time the same number thought that we shouldn't have relocated!!!

I was also a little surprised at the lack of love for Spider Everite - 2004 Prelim - OUT - Trent Knobel IN Peter Everite.... looks pretty good to me.

All the GT stuff was predictably divisive - lot of contention there. I was surprised a least at how much support there was for his initial appointment at least.
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Pt.1

Postby skeptic » Tue 21 Mar 2017 11:19am

14. Should we have recruited Ben Cousins?
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- YES. Low cost. High potential on-field return. He probably would have been the difference in the 09/10 Grandfinals
45% of respondents said:
- NO. He was too much of a risk. Injury prone, checkered history, potential to destroy our culture, threatened sponsorship, would have brought high levels of scrutiny down upon us
4.5% of respondents said:
- Answer A) but a high cost, any little thing would have been highly controversial at the Saints

15. 2009 Grandfinal team selection; Hudghton vs Dawson:
36% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Hudghton was by far the better player and we needed his leadership. He would have come through for us
27% of respondents said:
- Whilst Zac earned his spot, he should have lost it going into hospital 2 days before the Grandfinal. It was ridiculous playing Zac over Max when fitness was an issue for both
13.5% of respondents said:
- There was only room for one and Dawson earned his position. Zac was the safer bet as he played the majority of the season and there were question marks on Max’s ability to run out the game injury free
13.5% of respondents said:
- We should have played them both

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Depended on the conditions, should have been Max in wet conditions
- Should have been a) but the hospital thing was a deal changer

16. In the 2009 Grandfinal, St. Kilda:
36% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Kicked the game away despite dominating most of it
18% of respondents said:
- Was severely outcoached on the day: Hayes nullified, Ball ‘forgotten’ about, poorly selected team
9% of respondents said:
- Were beaten by the better team on the day
9% of respondents said:
- Kicked the game away whilst being severely outcoached on the day

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Lost the match due to horrendous umpiring… Tom Hawkin’s goal anyone!
- Ran out of gas
- Were defeated by the wet conditions that suited Geelong
- Lost the match due to a combination of horrendous umpiring and kicking the game away

17. Luke Ball’s departure from the St. Kilda FC:
45% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Resulted in us both losing a required player for nothing. No matter which way this is boiled down, the fact that the situation couldn’t salvaged reflected very poorly on all concerned
36% of respondents said:
- He was forced out. Ross Lyon clearly didn’t rate him and made Ball’s situation at St.Kilda untenable forcing Luke to act in his own self interest, screwing the club in the process
13.5% of respondents said:
- Luke sold us out. He cracked it after being dropped, and wouldn’t/couldn’t adapt to the expectations placed on him, so he walked out and screwed us in the process


18. The recruitment of Andrew Lovett was:
54% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- The right move at the time. He was exactly the type of player we needed and nobody could have reasonably predicted that it would have ended the way it did
22.5% of respondents said:
- A predictable disaster. He was a well known d**khead, inconsistent player. It was no surprise that it ended so poorly
18% of respondents said:
- Too expensive. He may have been the right player but pick 17 was way too high for an erratic player with a known bad attitude

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Was reactive and shortsighted. Giving up your first round pick on a gamble = jeopardizing your future. We should have gone to the draft. We might have gotten Nat Fyfe instead
- A gamble that failed, was the right player to get us over the line but too big a risk in hindsight


19. Ross Lyon’s departure:
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Was characterized by Lyon’s stalling, back peddling, and backroom deal. Ross was going to re-sign with the St. Kilda FC
18% of respondents said:
- Was an indictment on just how poor the Footy First was. They couldn’t get the job done and what the hell was with that escape clause in his contract?
13.5% of respondents said
- Was Footy First taking a bullet. The Saints’ board knew that Ross Lyon was never the man for the rebuild so they didn’t try too hard to keep him and wore it.

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Was Ross looking after Ross
- Exhausted his options and saw greener pastures elsewhere
- When we stopped negotiations, he looked around
- Blessing in disguise


20. On Ross Lyon’s legacy:
63% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- He inherited a team with a number of seasoned champions but his inability to develop talent, overreliance on stars, and love of role players squandered our best chance of winning another premiership
18% of respondents said:
- He is a super coach, the best one we’ve had in decades
9% of respondents said:
- He took a team in decline to within a bounce, 2 goals and a few wayward free kicks of being back to back premiers

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Is really overrated. He was made to look better than he was gifted to premiership caliber lists
- Great coach who can get the team to do what he wants but the game plan is dated

21. The departure of Brendan Goddard:
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- He jumped for more money, a chance to be captain and a final push for premiership glory
31.5% of respondents said:
- He was moved on for picks/opportunity for others

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- All of the above
- It was the right move for Brendan and the club
- Was to get picks and to free up the salary cap
- Was a statement that we were rebuilding

22. The departure of Nick Dal Santo:
81% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Was moved on for picks/opportunity for others
9% of respondents said:
- Jumped for a final push for premiership glory

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Was the right move for Nick and the club
- Was consistent strategy


23. On Nick Riewoldt keeping the captaincy:
63% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Nick should have continued until retirement and claimed the record
18% of respondents said:
- The time has come to pass it on to our next leader be it Geary, Steven etc.
9% of respondents said:
- Time for the youngins to step up. Co-Captains Newnes/Weller, rotating captaincy etc.

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Ask again in 12 months
- Strange as no replacement captain and would be a worthy honor for Roo

24. What’s the solution to our ruck situation?
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Hickey with Pierce after the latter forces his way into the team as a KPP
18% of respondents said:
- Hickey and Carlisle
9% of respondents said:
- Hickey rotating with Longer/Holmes off the bench

Of the rest, 4.5% of respondents each nominated one of the following:
- Hickey as the primary with Bruce providing relief from up forward
- Trade in a forward/ruck
- Hickey with Carlisle helping. Bruce needs to stay forward
- Hickey as a primary and back ups available
- Hickey + a forward chop out

25. The New Zealand experiment:
45% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- It won’t amount to anything but we desperately need the money and should persevere with it for as long as possible. Heck play games in China if it gets us money
40.5% of respondents said:
- Another pipedream: selling home games for money knowing that New Zealand will never embrace AFL. Cut it the moment we can
13.5% of respondents said:
- It’s not as great as the Tassie deal, but it’s necessary and has the potential to be great

26. In the VFL, the Saints should:
49.5% of the Saintsational Council determined that:
- Stick with Sandy and build on the partnership to make it something great. We’re a poor club and won’t be able to sustain our own VFL team for long.
45% of respondents said:
- Have their own standalone team. You need one to stay competitive
4.5% of respondents said:
- Standalone is better but not essential. Want to break the “poor club” shackle

Nobody felt it was more appropriate to align with someone else. Frankston perhaps?
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Complet

Postby Bluthy » Wed 22 Mar 2017 10:51am

Well done Skeptic. A lot of work put in. It's a great read - need time to digest it! Just one of those questions could be debated for months (well Lyon is ongoing flair up debate here anyway)

I was one that wasn't against Blight as everyone else. I like the weird coaches and he had great success. He said that he spent so much time away from the club because they were trying to come up with new tactics and approaches to the game to give us an edge. I like that approach - premiers tend to be playing a new style of game to everyone else. I still don't know about GT - he brought a real sense of pride and ambition to St Kilda but by god his tactics were shockingly naive sometimes for an AFL coach - against Sydney in that prelim it was like we didn't even have a defensive structure at all - how could we get over run like that?

I think I might have voted for Cousins. But I heard Wallace talking about his meeting with Ben at Richmond and Wallace asked when he last used and Ben said that day. :shock: He was twitching and edgy. How do you employ a guy like that to bring into your professional club trying for a flag? Huge, huge risk and he was far from his best after the ravages of drugs and its corresponding lifestyle. Wallace said it was for charity - he was scared he'd turn the radio on in a few months and hear the worse news - and because the players desperately wanted him. Looking back I don't think he would have made much difference - he was barely at AFL level anymore.

Maybe next off-season you could post one of these questions each week for discussion.
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Re: The Results of the Ultimate Saintsational Survey Complet

Postby skeptic » Wed 22 Mar 2017 9:12pm

On Ben Cousins...

Interestingly enough that was the question that most divided the community... And it was the only question on the board that was a dead heat requiring a tie breaker
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