Hickey or Longer?

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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby BigMart » Tue 14 Mar 2017 7:09pm

Legitimate question though?

Do Sydney have a half decent ruckman?

Tom Boyd looked like Peter Moore in the GF last year against them...
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby dragit » Tue 14 Mar 2017 7:19pm

BigMart wrote:Legitimate question though?

Do Sydney have a half decent ruckman?

Tom Boyd looked like Peter Moore in the GF last year against them...

I reckon Nankervis is a better footballer, Naismith is pretty average but he hasn't played a lot of AFL footy yet so could still become a decent ruckman.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby kosifantutti » Tue 14 Mar 2017 7:22pm

Spinner wrote:
BigMart wrote:Who was his opponent Sunday?



Exactly - but same for Longer the week before.


29 disposals but 3 marks? Not much has been said of the quality of our team clearances and maybe they were superb when we go back to the tape - but let's not get high on a ruck getting a mass of disposals. That's the mids role.

So Hickey should just stand back and let his opponent or opposition mids get the ball because it's not his job.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby sunsaint » Tue 14 Mar 2017 7:30pm

Spinner wrote:
BigMart wrote:Who was his opponent Sunday?



Exactly - but same for Longer the week before.


29 disposals but 3 marks? Not much has been said of the quality of our team clearances and maybe they were superb when we go back to the tape - but let's not get high on a ruck getting a mass of disposals. That's the mids role.

yep Hickey wasnt up against top quality - but - you cant knock him for getting clearances ESPECIALLY when it looked like our on-ballers were less effective
his second and third efforts below his knees said it all

the swans are a bit light on rucks this year and have thrown it all on Naismith/Tippet combo
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby BigMart » Tue 14 Mar 2017 8:18pm

How many games have those ruckmen played. They would have to be the worst in the AFL surely?!
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Bluthy » Tue 14 Mar 2017 8:49pm

I likey rotation. I think we should have done mo of it last year. We are still at a stage were can keep experimenting a bit and be proactive in our search for a team that will be the right mix to win a flag.

But more than anything I don't want to hear yet more excuses why we didn't win a flag - "the ball didn't bounce right", "the umpires cheated us", "Hickey did his knee in the prelim". Its clever of the club to be proactive to provide deep cover all over and minimise the effect of injury on our flag chance - very far sighted.

Does it do Longer any good to rot in the VFL? He needs to taste a high level to keep developing. And he may want out if he doesn't get games. The no third man up rule could change ruck work considerably - we would be crazy not to experiment and see what works - more technical or a big brute who can wrestle in the clinches without support. Hickey has had one great year and one very good praccie match but there is now an important rule change that we need to work through. Hickey is 26 and maybe won't get a lot bigger. Longer has more time and frame to get strong enough to be a monster in a few years and could improve his all round game when his endurance gets better to lug that big frame around.

Hawks had a lot of ruck selection headaches with the likes of Ceglar, Hale and Mcevoy. Thats what you want. We want Richo and the selectors pulling their hair out before the grand final selection wondering if they play Billy who dominated a few weeks ago against big rucks and hurt the oppo mids or Hickey who just racked up 25 possies in the prelim.

I'd be surprised if Hickey doesn't start against Gawn who he matches up well against. But the club has been really proactive with video review to look ahead and looks like being brave enough to experiment while we can. I like that a lot. The two of them will have a great rivalry for the no. 1 spot which will hopefully drive both to great heights. If Tom can become a good enough mark he still might be a possible fwd-ruck option even. And swapping rucks could even give us the element of surprise. Lets experiment while we can!
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby lennyhaze » Tue 14 Mar 2017 8:56pm

Bluthy wrote:I likey rotation. I think we should have done mo of it last year. We are still at a stage were can keep experimenting a bit and be proactive in our search for a team that will be the right mix to win a flag.

But more than anything I don't want to hear yet more excuses why we didn't win a flag - "the ball didn't bounce right", "the umpires cheated us", "Hickey did his knee in the prelim". Its clever of the club to be proactive to provide deep cover all over and minimise the effect of injury on our flag chance - very far sighted.

Does it do Longer any good to rot in the VFL? He needs to taste a high level to keep developing. And he may want out if he doesn't get games. The no third man up rule could change ruck work considerably - we would be crazy not to experiment and see what works - more technical or a big brute who can wrestle in the clinches without support. Hickey has had one great year and one very good praccie match but there is now an important rule change that we need to work through. Hickey is 26 and maybe won't get a lot bigger. Longer has more time and frame to get strong enough to be a monster in a few years and could improve his all round game when his endurance gets better to lug that big frame around.

Hawks had a lot of ruck selection headaches with the likes of Ceglar, Hale and Mcevoy. Thats what you want. We want Richo and the selectors pulling their hair out before the grand final selection wondering if they play Billy who dominated a few weeks ago against big rucks and hurt the oppo mids or Hickey who just racked up 25 possies in the prelim.

I'd be surprised if Hickey doesn't start against Gawn who he matches up well against. But the club has been really proactive with video review to look ahead and looks like being brave enough to experiment while we can. I like that a lot. The two of them will have a great rivalry for the no. 1 spot which will hopefully drive both to great heights. If Tom can become a good enough mark he still might be a possible fwd-ruck option even. And swapping rucks could even give us the element of surprise. Lets experiment while we can!


Does it do the better player being dropped any good because you want to rotate the player not as good. Fine for young kids but this is the big league. You don't gift games to other players and why would the incumbent expect it to happen. Say the other guy plays a blinder and the poor player who was classed as better cant get back in the side. And the new rule wont effect ruckman much at all. A beat up. Hickey won more taps than Longer last year even id there was third man up and that's remembering the third man up usually wins the taps so Hickey must have still won many of his own. And Longer didn't dominate a few weeks ago. He was just OK in both games, one against a player who hasn't even played a senior game.


Just play our best players until injured or they aren't our best players.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby saynta » Tue 14 Mar 2017 8:56pm

Chalk and cheese. Imho.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Con Gorozidis » Tue 14 Mar 2017 9:11pm

BigMart wrote:Legitimate question though?

Do Sydney have a half decent ruckman?

Tom Boyd looked like Peter Moore in the GF last year against them...


True but Hickey had 2 AFL games last year with 20 disposals so he has some form in that department.

Longer needs to get up to 10 in the VFL before he even gets in the conversation imo.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Bluthy » Tue 14 Mar 2017 9:21pm

lennyhaze wrote:
Bluthy wrote:I likey rotation. I think we should have done mo of it last year. We are still at a stage were can keep experimenting a bit and be proactive in our search for a team that will be the right mix to win a flag.

But more than anything I don't want to hear yet more excuses why we didn't win a flag - "the ball didn't bounce right", "the umpires cheated us", "Hickey did his knee in the prelim". Its clever of the club to be proactive to provide deep cover all over and minimise the effect of injury on our flag chance - very far sighted.

Does it do Longer any good to rot in the VFL? He needs to taste a high level to keep developing. And he may want out if he doesn't get games. The no third man up rule could change ruck work considerably - we would be crazy not to experiment and see what works - more technical or a big brute who can wrestle in the clinches without support. Hickey has had one great year and one very good praccie match but there is now an important rule change that we need to work through. Hickey is 26 and maybe won't get a lot bigger. Longer has more time and frame to get strong enough to be a monster in a few years and could improve his all round game when his endurance gets better to lug that big frame around.

Hawks had a lot of ruck selection headaches with the likes of Ceglar, Hale and Mcevoy. Thats what you want. We want Richo and the selectors pulling their hair out before the grand final selection wondering if they play Billy who dominated a few weeks ago against big rucks and hurt the oppo mids or Hickey who just racked up 25 possies in the prelim.

I'd be surprised if Hickey doesn't start against Gawn who he matches up well against. But the club has been really proactive with video review to look ahead and looks like being brave enough to experiment while we can. I like that a lot. The two of them will have a great rivalry for the no. 1 spot which will hopefully drive both to great heights. If Tom can become a good enough mark he still might be a possible fwd-ruck option even. And swapping rucks could even give us the element of surprise. Lets experiment while we can!


Does it do the better player being dropped any good because you want to rotate the player not as good. Fine for young kids but this is the big league. You don't gift games to other players and why would the incumbent expect it to happen. Say the other guy plays a blinder and the poor player who was classed as better cant get back in the side. And the new rule wont effect ruckman much at all. A beat up. Hickey won more taps than Longer last year even id there was third man up and that's remembering the third man up usually wins the taps so Hickey must have still won many of his own. And Longer didn't dominate a few weeks ago. He was just OK in both games, one against a player who hasn't even played a senior game.


Just play our best players until injured or they aren't our best players.


Jeez you use argumentative, run on sentences exactly like Plugger66 did :?
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby SaintPav » Tue 14 Mar 2017 9:40pm

BigMart wrote:Legitimate question though?

Do Sydney have a half decent ruckman?

Tom Boyd looked like Peter Moore in the GF last year against them...


Good point.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby BackFromUSA » Tue 14 Mar 2017 10:04pm

Rd 1 v Melbourne - Hickey

Rd 2 v West Coast - Hickey

Rd 3 v Brisbane - Longer

Rd 4 v Collingwood - Hickey

Rd 5 v Geelong - Hickey

Rd 6 v Hawthorn - Longer

Rd 7 v Giants - Holmes vs Mumford to jump all over him (and tag him)

Rd 8 v Carlton - Hickey

Rd 9 v Sydney - Hickey

Round 10 - Western Bulldogs - Hickey

Round 11 - bye and re-assess
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby saintsRrising » Wed 15 Mar 2017 12:44am

SaintPav wrote:
BigMart wrote:Legitimate question though?

Do Sydney have a half decent ruckman?

Tom Boyd looked like Peter Moore in the GF last year against them...


Good point.


Yes Boyd took the marks at the right time, at a valuable time, and when was needed. It was an excellent game as a ruck forward.

As a ruckman though he one only 14 Hit Outs. Roughhead had more, but the duo still had less HOs than the Sydney combo. In addition Naismith played injured in the finals http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017 ... o-recovery

Hickey had more HOs than the Sydney duo combined and with a good margin.

The point ignored here too is that Hickey was winning all those extra possessions and clearances against the quality Sydney mids!

He played the game as a ruck/follower and as a ruckman his game was better than Boyds and as a ball winner his game was also better than Boyd's. Naturally though as Boyd did it in a Grand Final and stepped up when that game was in balance he deserves all the kudos for that.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Bluthy » Wed 15 Mar 2017 8:45pm

saintsRrising wrote:
SaintPav wrote:
BigMart wrote:Legitimate question though?

Do Sydney have a half decent ruckman?

Tom Boyd looked like Peter Moore in the GF last year against them...


Good point.


Yes Boyd took the marks at the right time, at a valuable time, and when was needed. It was an excellent game as a ruck forward.

As a ruckman though he one only 14 Hit Outs. Roughhead had more, but the duo still had less HOs than the Sydney combo. In addition Naismith played injured in the finals http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017 ... o-recovery

Hickey had more HOs than the Sydney duo combined and with a good margin.

The point ignored here too is that Hickey was winning all those extra possessions and clearances against the quality Sydney mids!

He played the game as a ruck/follower and as a ruckman his game was better than Boyds and as a ball winner his game was also better than Boyd's. Naturally though as Boyd did it in a Grand Final and stepped up when that game was in balance he deserves all the kudos for that.


You're comparing a march praccie game to the insane intensity of a prelim and grannie? You keep going down the "need to be great around the ground" obsession and you end up looking Jason Blake dead in the eye as he's about to go up against a 200cm ruck. Grant Thomas says hello. Coaches - those dudes who seem to be able to look beyond the obvious about the game that most of us are stuck on - loooooooooooooooooooooove the big strong intimidating ruckmen. Look at Lyon getting King in. They want a huge guy who can protect the ball drop area and be a huge hunk of human shield around the precious egg of the ball.

I just don't see the harm, with the ruck rule change, to be trying both Hicks and Longer out in the seniors (not both at once though - unless Hickey becomes a marking machine). Longer had a lot of problems last year - shoulder reco and concussion - that he seems over now. Why is everyone so scared of experimenting a little? How do you know Hickey will be so great - he was pretty good last year but our clearance rate was why we finished outside the 8. Ok our onball crew wasn't elite but is Hickey scot free on that or was he also part of the problem

Maybe everything isn't as it appears on the surface. As fans we get so excited because a ruck can get possessions but how well does hickey use it? OR is he just getting stuff that other of our players would have got anyway? Lets be honest, he's not shoving it down the throat of forwards or doing huge game opening handballs.

There are questions here needing answers. Lets try to answer them rather in three years time and we can't win finals and we go "what happening? is all wrong? why that, why? I cry now" I applaud the proactive approach of the club. Lets develop two strong, different types of ruckmen so we have bases covered if the game ebbs and flows in different directions which it always does.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby saintsRrising » Wed 15 Mar 2017 9:23pm

Bluthy wrote: You keep going down the "need to be great around the ground" obsession and you end up looking Jason Blake dead in the eye as he's about to go up against a 200cm ruck. .


We are talking about Hickey here who is a genuine ruck of ruck height and not an athletic medium sized back in Blake who was used as a chop out second ruck on occasion due to his great leap. I think he only played about 2 games where he rucked most of the day and that selection was based on limited ruck options being available on the day.

We are also talking about Hickey v Longer. No one is calling for Acres et al to play ruck for us.

This is no "obsession" but rather that a ruckman who can also do well around the ground is IMO much more valuable than a ruck who can only do tap work.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby desertsaint » Wed 15 Mar 2017 11:30pm

"Maybe everything isn't as it appears on the surface. As fans we get so excited because a ruck can get possessions but how well does hickey use it? OR is he just getting stuff that other of our players would have got anyway?"
Getting stuff our other players would have got? Did you watch the game? He gets stuff that no one else got, hypothesizing on whether one of our other guys would get it anyway is something we could apply to any player. If someone else could've got it that would have. He did. And he used it well.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby SaintPav » Thu 16 Mar 2017 7:50am

BackFromUSA wrote:Rd 1 v Melbourne - Hickey

Rd 2 v West Coast - Hickey

Rd 3 v Brisbane - Longer

Rd 4 v Collingwood - Hickey

Rd 5 v Geelong - Hickey

Rd 6 v Hawthorn - Longer

Rd 7 v Giants - Holmes vs Mumford to jump all over him (and tag him)

Rd 8 v Carlton - Hickey

Rd 9 v Sydney - Hickey

Round 10 - Western Bulldogs - Hickey

Round 11 - bye and re-assess


Like this but just give the Hick a rest every 4 weeks.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby saintsRrising » Thu 16 Mar 2017 11:15am

Bluthy wrote: OR is he just getting stuff that other of our players would have got anyway? .


Perhaps the silliest argument I have ever read on Saintsational.

I can only go back now and think how good our other players were if only Harvey had not won the ball first. Obviously to actually win the ball is somehow a bad thing?




PS: and yes Hickey's handball is a real weapon. He has very god vision and has the knack of being able to teammates in the clear.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby dragit » Thu 16 Mar 2017 11:26am

saintsRrising wrote:Perhaps the silliest argument I have ever read on Saintsational.

LOL

Very selfish of Tom to help himself to those 18 contested possessions and 10 clearances.

Longer only plays if Hickey is injured for mine… I can't imagine any matchup which that would change this.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby bigcarl » Thu 16 Mar 2017 12:04pm

Anyway I think we are all pretty much agreed that Hickey is No. 1. It's a lot of eggs in one basket though, so we are lucky to have capable replacements in Longer and Holmes .., at least for the tap ins side of it
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Linton Lodger » Thu 16 Mar 2017 4:38pm

Hickey is the undisputed No.1 and unfortunately, given we have Bruce, McCartin & Membrey, we can only go with one.

I know Melb will probably go with both Gawn & Spencer, but we should not fall for that and play both Hickey & Longer. Our speed of ball movement will worry them and we shouldn't compromise that.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby saintsRrising » Thu 16 Mar 2017 8:12pm

Linton Lodger wrote:Hickey is the undisputed No.1 and unfortunately, given we have Bruce, McCartin & Membrey, we can only go with one.




Or perhaps more positively:

Hickey is the undisputed No.1 and fortunately, given we have Bruce, McCartin & Membrey, and a very deep midfield we need only with one.


Playing one ruckman means that we can rotate more mids through the middle including Roo who can also float up forward or down back.

When you also add in that we also now have a genuine CHB and FB again, together with Steele as a mid, this gives us the best balanced St Kilda team that we have had in a long time.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Bluthy » Thu 16 Mar 2017 8:18pm

saintsRrising wrote:
Bluthy wrote: OR is he just getting stuff that other of our players would have got anyway? .


Perhaps the silliest argument I have ever read on Saintsational.

I can only go back now and think how good our other players were if only Harvey had not won the ball first. Obviously to actually win the ball is somehow a bad thing?




PS: and yes Hickey's handball is a real weapon. He has very god vision and has the knack of being able to teammates in the clear.


You don't have to be a snarky internet sniper dick when I simply proposed a question. Tony's revelation about the ruck has shook me. I certainly hadn't given up on Billy but like many (most?) here assumed Hicks was still way ahead in that race due to his performance around the ground. Now we don't know if Tony has taken something out of context or misinterpreted something said - they proof will be in the games pudding.

But I was just having a go at digging a bit deeper into what makes rucks effective exactly. Why are big guys like Keating, Mumford, King, McEvoy etc involved in so much flag success when they don't rack up huge numbers? Do we care if a full back doesn't get much of it if he shuts his man down and helps out to the team defence? Does Clarkson care if Rioli only gets 13 touches if he gives backmen PTSD with his run downs making them watch their back all the time? Systems are about pieces doing their special jobs fitting together where the sum is greater than the parts. The engine, the carburetor and the exhaust pipe all do vastly different things but you need them all doing their thing for it to work. You don't want the exhaust pipe trying to act like an engine.

So I was doing some thought experiments around Hickey and his excellent possession numbers - is that the main thing we want from him? Is he not doing things like shielding, blocking, whacking into guys etc. Who's hands do we want it in - Billings, Steele and Steven who can crack open the play to create scoring opportunities or Hickey who is pretty good for a big guy but far from a-grade disposal and does a fair bit of neat shoveling to other guys.

Sorry for trying to get beyond the obvious a bit and be a bit brave in deconstructing something. Congratulations on hitting me on the head with a shovel for daring to go outside the bounds a bit. It's the specialty of guys like you on the internet who kills peoples attempt to open up a bit or think different. Keep on snarking bro - its obviously your thing.

Oh and Hickey has God vision now? Seriously. So he's better than Dangerfield and Mitchell. ACtually start watching the games - Hicks is great for a big guy but no where near the level of the elite mids disposal - he rarely does penetrating disposals that open things up. Now THAT was a dumb comment.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Bluthy » Thu 16 Mar 2017 8:36pm

dragit wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:Perhaps the silliest argument I have ever read on Saintsational.

LOL

Very selfish of Tom to help himself to those 18 contested possessions and 10 clearances.

Longer only plays if Hickey is injured for mine… I can't imagine any matchup which that would change this.


Because should he be shielding, blocking oppo mids from getting in there, making them go around him which opens up gaps to get the ball out - using his energies in those directions rather than getting so much ball himself is what I meant smart arse.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby dragit » Thu 16 Mar 2017 9:14pm

Cheer up champ, sometimes you just say things and look like a dick... happens to me regularly.

Let's hug it out.
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