Hickey or Longer?

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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Sainternist » Mon 13 Mar 2017 1:14pm

Tom Hickey is a quality ruckman. Can't believe there were people suggesting that we should trade him at one stage. This guy is showing that he has the ability to be a potential All Australian ruckman. Hope we play our cards right with him and get the most of him as a player.

That said, Billy Longer will be excellent value as second-string ruckman for our team.

Go Saints!
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby BigMart » Mon 13 Mar 2017 3:20pm

Will Billy be happy at Sandy hoping for an injury?

And AA

Gawn, Goldstein, Jacobs, Mumford, Sandilands, Martin

Might have something to say about that
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby lennyhaze » Mon 13 Mar 2017 3:25pm

BigMart wrote:Will Billy be happy at Sandy hoping for an injury?

And AA

Gawn, Goldstein, Jacobs, Mumford, Sandilands, Martin

Might have something to say about that



They may but most would have thought Goldstein was certain to be AA last year. If he improves as much this year as he did last year he is certainly in the mix. Longer wont play a game this year if Hickey isn't injured and keeps his form because they just wont play those 2 together.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Con Gorozidis » Mon 13 Mar 2017 3:47pm

Maybe the coaching staff and Tony are just giving Billy a bit of the old cuddle. Maybe they feel he needs to be kept with his spirits up. Keep the big boy motivated so he doesn't drop his bundle.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby sunsaint » Mon 13 Mar 2017 5:30pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:Maybe the coaching staff and Tony are just giving Billy a bit of the old cuddle. Maybe they feel he needs to be kept with his spirits up. Keep the big boy motivated so he doesn't drop his bundle.

so AR gives the big bad billy a comfort cuddle and gives cold shoulders and sour grapes to Acres?

Oh PS - Hickey by a loooooooooooooonger way
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby bigred » Mon 13 Mar 2017 5:48pm

He is effectively an extra mid.

Undeniable.

can hold his own against the gorillas also.

How could we go with Longer?
That kid Lonie can play a bit.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby sunsaint » Mon 13 Mar 2017 6:43pm

The fact that we are having another thread that seems to keep repeating - points to other issues bigger than Hickey vs Longer

A lot of people think in todays game you can't play two rucks
I believe that when we play Bruce in the ruck - we are only damaging ourselves ( and Bruce) Pretty much the same will happen if/when Carlisle plays as ruck

I still think there is a place for two rucks / forwards
Against the swans, they are blooding and grooming Darcy Cameron a first year player as a true 2nd ruck/forward and he looks the goods 200cm+ and can kick a goal

WE seem to have too many pure rucks -
we havent seen enough enough of Pierce even tho by now he should be making an impact on the list
I have Holmes ahead of Longer, not only on ruck work but work around the ground - you dont wont either of them kicking for goal but at least Holmes would be able to make the move forward. Maybe the hope is that Rowan Marshall will by-pass those two quickly and Pierce / Hickey will consolidate ruck / forward
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby mightysainters » Mon 13 Mar 2017 6:51pm

supersaints wrote:
mightysainters wrote:Let's break it down.. We cannot, I repeat cannot play 2 ruckman its absolute suicide and never EVER works

Longer is definitely pushing for selection BUT Hickey was fantastic last year..

Compared to the best in the league:

Movement Around the ground Hickey is a 7/10 and Longer is a 5/10
kicking: hickey is a 7/10 and longer 6/10
Marking: hickey 9/10 and longer 6/10
Tap Ruck: hickey 7/10 and longer 7.5/10

This is of course my opinion but I just don't know how longer could be the number 1 unless Hickey has had a bad bad off season and hasn't worked hard enough


Well it worked for Hawthorn for three premierships in a row !!!... you need to do a bit of research before making outlandish statements. There will be times we will play two ruckman just as Hamill stated in his presser after flogging the Blues.

I trust the Saints Coaches ....more than I trust you and I I'd like to think that the Hawks cuz he might be a bit more savvy than you


How's this going? Bit more savvy ey? Haha worked for Hawks.. No idea
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Bluthy » Mon 13 Mar 2017 8:06pm

Tony was really strong about pointing out that we want strong cover for all positions. So could they look at swapping Hicks and Longer around a bit to get games into both and keep both happy? Maybe a horses for courses thing - if the main oppo ruck is a technical ruck like Goldstein Hicks, but if its a big physical ruck like Mummy then Billy. Tony said they have done a lot of video research around not having a third man up and they could be worried that Hickey will get rag dolled a bit. Ruck contests will be a lot of wrestling and you gotta be able to hold your own. They could do a bit of experimenting this year to cover both the technical & physical ruck stocks.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby tony74 » Mon 13 Mar 2017 8:26pm

You're spot on Bluthy. Billy is the better ruckman with the no third man up rule now. But each game and opponent will be different so it will be very much a horses for courses selection. One has only have to replay the last few games against the Demons to see how the ruck contests played out there.
There has been a significant shift in our approach to this season with pretty well multiple players who can play in each position. I very much doubt you will see any player play 20 games this year even if they're totally injury free. We have one player/ position that would be difficult to cover to the degree we would like. I'll let the masses discuss that one !!
Its a brutal game and you need to rotate/rest players more than ever.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby dragit » Mon 13 Mar 2017 9:08pm

Albeit a practice match but: HIckey's game last night was extraordinary.

39 hitouts
29 disposals
18 contested
10 clearances
7 tackles
4 inside 50's

It will be a very strange course indeed that we would ever want a Longer-type horse over what Hickey served up last night.

We'd have lost by 4-5 goals last night if Longer had played instead of Hickey IMO.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby White Winmar » Mon 13 Mar 2017 9:23pm

dragit wrote:Albeit a practice match but: HIckey's game last night was extraordinary.

39 hitouts
29 disposals
18 contested
10 clearances
7 tackles
4 inside 50's

It will be a very strange course indeed that we would ever want a Longer-type horse over what Hickey served up last night.

We'd have lost by 4-5 goals last night if Longer had played instead of Hickey IMO.

Those are stats any midfielder would be proud of. Hickey was virtually an extra midfielder last year. He seems too valuable to leave out, no matter who the opponent. Will they play both if the need arises, Tony?
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby sunsaint » Mon 13 Mar 2017 9:28pm

tony74 wrote:You're spot on Bluthy. Billy is the better ruckman with the no third man up rule now. But each game and opponent will be different so it will be very much a horses for courses selection. One has only have to replay the last few games against the Demons to see how the ruck contests played out there.
There has been a significant shift in our approach to this season with pretty well multiple players who can play in each position. I very much doubt you will see any player play 20 games this year even if they're totally injury free. We have one player/ position that would be difficult to cover to the degree we would like. I'll let the masses discuss that one !!
Its a brutal game and you need to rotate/rest players more than ever.

ok fine - so this is the coaching panel position in black and white
but on past performance i just dont know how that conclusion can be reached
Longer has the center bounce tap aggression and that is is main asset
After that he doesnt have the tank like hickey to reach all the stoppages around the ground - has something drastically changed over the 2016 off season?
At around the ground throw up stoppages - if grappling is strictly umpired and penalised then a vertical leap like Holmes is a massive advantage
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby skeptic » Mon 13 Mar 2017 9:36pm

the other thing that concerns me is that historically, the Saints haven't been very good at the horses for courses approach

there was no play Jones, Gwilt, Blake (in the twilight of their careers period) when match ups suited and give others a go in between. They (and others that I'm not remembering so well, all played ahead of youth when they were match fit.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Jacks Back » Mon 13 Mar 2017 10:00pm

tony74 wrote:You're spot on Bluthy. Billy is the better ruckman with the no third man up rule now. But each game and opponent will be different so it will be very much a horses for courses selection. One has only have to replay the last few games against the Demons to see how the ruck contests played out there.
There has been a significant shift in our approach to this season with pretty well multiple players who can play in each position. I very much doubt you will see any player play 20 games this year even if they're totally injury free. We have one player/ position that would be difficult to cover to the degree we would like. I'll let the masses discuss that one !!
Its a brutal game and you need to rotate/rest players more than ever.

Fair dinkum, It's Winx v a pot of glue!

Geary - We can't drop him because you made him captain even though some players may go past him eventually.
As president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby bigcarl » Mon 13 Mar 2017 10:52pm

We have one player/ position that would be difficult to cover to the degree we would like. I'll let the masses discuss that one !!


That's a good guessing game. You ought to tell us if we hit the nail on the head.

Here's a few stabs in the dark.

Riewoldt?
We've always been over-reliant on him because he is a unique player.

Steven?
Dunno what we do if he falls over. He'll be the first one opposition teams look to stop every week. No one else on the list runs like he can

Hickey?
The other rucks we have aren't in his class around the ground. They may be his equal in hitouts, but that's as far as it goes.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby desertsaint » Tue 14 Mar 2017 1:06am

I reckon CHF is our problem. Despite having a champion at the. position. We have Bruce and McCartin, both of whom play better elsewhere. It's a tough one, but I think we need to work on Bruce there. Although we'd be a better team with Roo there , freeing up a centre spot for one of our unlucky mids - stevens or acres.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Moods » Tue 14 Mar 2017 5:19am

BigMart wrote:Will Billy be happy at Sandy hoping for an injury?

And AA

Gawn, Goldstein, Jacobs, Mumford, Sandilands, Martin

Might have something to say about that


I think if Tom keeps playing like he did last Sunday the AA selection will take care of itself, regardless of what Gawn and co have to say.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Saint wagga » Tue 14 Mar 2017 2:46pm

[quote="tony74"]You're spot on Bluthy. Billy is the better ruckman with the no third man up rule now. But each game and opponent will be different so it will be very much a horses for courses selection. One has only have to replay the last few games against the Demons to see how the ruck contests played out there.
There has been a significant shift in our approach to this season with pretty well multiple players who can play in each position. I very much doubt you will see any player play 20 games this year even if they're totally injury free. We have one player/ position that would be difficult to cover to the degree we would like. I'll let the masses discuss that one !!
Its a brutal game and you need to rotate/rest players more than ever.[/quote

I look forward to any of our best players not over 34 being rested for no reason! Especially if we are in the mix for the top 8! That'll go down well and Uncle Jamie will really have to have his A game on explaining that at his weekly presser! Ps: pretty sure it's been a 'brutal' comp for a long long long time, nothing new there! Yes we have developed a bit more depth, but pretty sure there ain't a plan b if roo gets injured, if Steven goes down, if Carlisle goes down...and as someone else mentioned, I'm pretty sure I'd pick a well bred thoroughbred over a crooked mule any day...I'll let you mull over which 2 players that analogy refers to Tony74;-)
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby mightysainters » Tue 14 Mar 2017 2:54pm

Unless we're two games clear on top, no idea why we would rest players.. All players carry niggles throughout the year and if we decide to be resting players for no real reason It would be rediculous
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby lennyhaze » Tue 14 Mar 2017 4:37pm

tony74 wrote:You're spot on Bluthy. Billy is the better ruckman with the no third man up rule now. But each game and opponent will be different so it will be very much a horses for courses selection. One has only have to replay the last few games against the Demons to see how the ruck contests played out there.
There has been a significant shift in our approach to this season with pretty well multiple players who can play in each position. I very much doubt you will see any player play 20 games this year even if they're totally injury free. We have one player/ position that would be difficult to cover to the degree we would like. I'll let the masses discuss that one !!
Its a brutal game and you need to rotate/rest players more than ever.



I have no idea how the club know Billy is the better ruckman now with the new rule. Yes they have played on each other in practice games but some players just cant get up for those games. All I know is Hickey is so far clear of Longer as an all round player. As for no player playing 20 games this year well I call bull shite. That means Steven will be rested for at least 3 games if no injury. That is not happening. No player would agree to it. It is a brutal game but players train to play every game. And there is no way they will have horses for courses. Lets just see them drop Hickey for Longer after he may get in the best for 5 weeks just because it might not be the best match up. If they want to wreck a players confidence I reckon that would do it.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby jays » Tue 14 Mar 2017 4:59pm

hickey was dead set machine on sunday he gets first call for sure ImageImage
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby To the top » Tue 14 Mar 2017 6:00pm

Hickey is no contest - and the reasons why were again evident in Albury as an extension of 2016 AND why we jettisoned McEvoy because we had Hickey, who is far, far superior.

The old adage was that you never gave your opponent a sniff of an opportunity - and that included in your own side.

Simply, a sniff of an opportunity could cost you your place - permanently.

So you always play when capable of playing.

I recall Wally Grout saying to me when I was a kid at school in Adelaide that he had to play even with a broken finger (and a "dicky" heart as it turned out but no-one ever knew that!!!) because if he did not Jarman would be selected and Wally would be relegated to Queensland 'keeper.

All mates - but it is a fierce competition.
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby BigMart » Tue 14 Mar 2017 6:40pm

Who was his opponent Sunday?
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Re: Hickey or Longer?

Postby Spinner » Tue 14 Mar 2017 6:46pm

BigMart wrote:Who was his opponent Sunday?



Exactly - but same for Longer the week before.


29 disposals but 3 marks? Not much has been said of the quality of our team clearances and maybe they were superb when we go back to the tape - but let's not get high on a ruck getting a mass of disposals. That's the mids role.
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