We're Just Not Good Enough

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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1663922Post Johnny Member »

True Believer wrote:laughed this crap off as soon as the OP started writing off a 20 year old KPF who has great hands......no clue
I still dont think we're good enough.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1663946Post kalsaint »

Johnny Member wrote:Ok, I'll admit it - I'm cynical about our prospects this season and beyond.



Now granted, he hasn't even played 50 games yet and could well be a late bloomer (compared with the development of Bontempelli and Petracca for example) but until then there's a genuine case to be very disappointed in what a Pick 3 has produced for us.

Then there's McCartin. I like him, but I don't like the way he's being played to be honest. I don't really understand why you'd spend Pick 1 on a lead-up half forward. I understand why you'd overlook Petracca and his obvious abundance of talent for a key forward with the number 1 Pick - but not for a high half forward.


I posted about this last year with a theory on why Bruce and McCartin drop what appear to be easy-ish marks. I noticed that they go too 'flat handed' at the ball instead of spreading their fingers in the more traditional and effective way. My theory was that they were being instructed to bring the ball to the front of the contest as their first priority - actually marking the pill is an afterthought. But the absolute rule is to not let the ball through the back.

McCartin did this really blatantly last week. He actually went up in the contest and his 'flat hands' were so obvious that it looked almost like a volleyball spike!


But I digress.....


My point is that we've been to the well, so to speak. We've handed over guys like Goddard and Dal Santo to load up on draft picks. We've used the picks we received to get players from other clubs, but more so to get young pearls from the draft. As a result we bottomed out and had 2 x top 3 picks in succession.

I just don't think it's worked, sadly.

We didn't get a Selwood. A Bont. A Judd. A Reiwoldt.

And that's we needed. It's what everyone needs.

Instead, we got a Curren, a Templeton, a Sinclair, a Newnes etc. etc.

So as we improve naturally (as guys get to that 50-100 game mark) there seems to be an expectation that the improvement trend will continue infinitely. But I have my doubts. I'd argue that outside of Gresham and last year's draftees - no one else will get much better than they will be this season.

But what we really, really need to see is a few guys show us that this year they'll become freakishly good. We need another 2-3 at Jack Stevens' level if we're going to improve enough over the next couple of seasons to seriously compete.

Acres? McCartin? Billings? Gresham? Freeman? Carlisle?

This isn't a knock on our recruiters necessarily - as looking at the drafts that I've flagged above, aside from the Bont and Petracca there's nothing glaring jumping out at us that we missed badly. It's just that at this stage, I don't believe we've brought in the required talent to be a genuine top 4 team.

Good thoughts. I like a lot of what you say but never understood why a tall forward was the necessary pick at #1 given our crap delivery to forwards. We were outpointed so badly in the midfield in the previous years in terms of effective clearance numbers. This meant outside players were either not getting the pill or were caught due to lack of player protection. Top clubs do that.

We needed one of the 4 players you mention. I would add Brayshaw to that list too. We should have had Petracca if we kept the #1 pick. The alternative was for 2 later round one picks (a tall forward/ruck - I had Peter Wright in mind here, plus a good size midfielder/half back prepared to bust up packs or someone to break the lines, run forward and kick goals).

Picks from 10 to 50 are often a lucky dip. Look at other clubs top picks and those picked later who are getting regular game time. Its difficult recruitment, as its speculative and dependent on player growth. I still think we predominantly needed classy midfielders more than forwards (even though I named Wright because he could do a duel role).


Midfield clearances and clear winners are needed to make an effective forward line.

You need to protect the ball handler to increase posession efficiency
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1663947Post kalsaint »

samoht wrote:Why do they mark at all, then? Is it a fail when they mark?
I can understand them deliberately spoiling the ball when their opponent is in a better position - but the other times they'd be going for the mark, putting their best hand forward, so to speak.

Why settle for a 10% chance of the resultant spill working in your team's favour - something coming of it (a point or a goal), when a mark means you have 100% control , you're under no pressure, and have a much better chance of something positive happening?
When the ball spills, you're going to be put under pressure - you get tackled, blocked and chased towards the boundary - chances are you'll cough the ball up even if it happens to go your team's way (and there's only a 50% chance of it even going your team's way, anyway).
Marking is imperative. You only have to look at Yeo from the Eagle. He has a great set og hands and is so valuable to their team because of this and his evasive movement and run.


Midfield clearances and clear winners are needed to make an effective forward line.

You need to protect the ball handler to increase posession efficiency
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1663948Post kalsaint »

desertsaint wrote:"I'd argue that outside of Gresham and last year's draftees - no one else will get much better than they will be this season."

I expect we'll see a lot more improve than that - the vast majority of the following under 25s will improve. Billings, Acres, Dunstan, Bruce, Membrey, McCartin, Webster, Sinclair, Lonie, Ross, Newnes, Longer, Rice, Goddard, Pierce, Wright, and McKenzie.

I agree none of the above are looking like they will become elite, but some may become solid A players, and others good B to B+.
I too would have preferred Petracca over McCartin, and Bont over Billings (but only after the fact). Who wouldn't, we need elite players which is why we must tempt one over. I definitely see the core of a future finals contender in our list.
Bont was actually no so difficult to see. At the time he was an outsider but was climbing the recruitment ladder. I checked out all the videos of stated best players and this bloke featured in nearly everyone else's highlights video. The thing that caught my eye was his run, chase and tackle and that was before I saw his own highlights video. No wonder some clubs had him more highly rated than the writers. His effort told me a lot about his energy, his height and strength were quite obvious but it was his coverage that blew me away. I didn't see any others like it and I started to look for other players in other highlight videos. No one matched Bont.


Midfield clearances and clear winners are needed to make an effective forward line.

You need to protect the ball handler to increase posession efficiency
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1665671Post Johnny Member »

So....

Carlisle is borderline elite. Seriously, if he was a new guy the media would be flogging themselves about him right now.

He's as solid a CHB as I've seen for years right now. He'll get better too.



Steele could be elite, and fairly soon.


At this stage, I think that's it. At this stage.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1665674Post magnifisaint »

Johnny Member wrote:
True Believer wrote:laughed this crap off as soon as the OP started writing off a 20 year old KPF who has great hands......no clue
I still dont think we're good enough.
Are Collingwood good enough?


Posting 20 years of holey crap!
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1665681Post Johnny Member »

magnifisaint wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
True Believer wrote:laughed this crap off as soon as the OP started writing off a 20 year old KPF who has great hands......no clue
I still dont think we're good enough.
Are Collingwood good enough?
No.

Nowhere near good enough.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1665991Post Dave McNamara »

kalsaint wrote:Bont was actually no so difficult to see. At the time he was an outsider but was climbing the recruitment ladder. I checked out all the videos of stated best players and this bloke featured in nearly everyone else's highlights video. The thing that caught my eye was his run, chase and tackle and that was before I saw his own highlights video. No wonder some clubs had him more highly rated than the writers. His effort told me a lot about his energy, his height and strength were quite obvious but it was his coverage that blew me away. I didn't see any others like it and I started to look for other players in other highlight videos. No one matched Bont.
There are some genuine no-idea posters on SS, and no worries, that's fair enough... I have to pass an idle moment somehow.

Conversely, there are also some very very astute observers of our magnificent game. I won't try to name them, for fear of unfairly forgetting too many, though certainly some can be found in this very thread.

However, there's one poster whom I will name. His/her assessments and insight continually make me 'sit up and take notice', and think, I'd never ever have thought of that, but it really makes sense(!)

That'd be you, kalsaint. And great to see you posting more of late. :)


It's Dave, man. Will you open up? I got the stuff with me! -------Who?
Dave, man. Open up ------------------------------------------ -----Dave???
Yeah, Dave. ---------------------------------------------------------Dave's not here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiG1hAr ... detailpage
skeptic wrote: Tue 30 Jan 2024 8:07pmCongrats to Dave McNamara - hereby dubbed the KNOWINGEST KNOW IT ALL of Saintsational
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1666972Post magnifisaint »

Good on you Johnny Member.....CLUELESS!


Posting 20 years of holey crap!
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667065Post Johnny Member »

magnifisaint wrote:Good on you Johnny Member.....CLUELESS!

Still think we're a fair way off.

Lack polish, and top end talent.

There's some emerging, but not enough still.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667074Post DJ Higgins »

hahahahahahahahahaha

Not good enough??????. Scoreboard doubters


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667075Post dragit »

Johnny Member wrote:
magnifisaint wrote:Good on you Johnny Member.....CLUELESS!

Still think we're a fair way off.

Lack polish, and top end talent.

There's some emerging, but not enough still.
Probably fair mate, they were missing at least 6 starting 22 players...

Was a great win none the less.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667076Post twirlyhair »

Johnny Member wrote:
magnifisaint wrote:Good on you Johnny Member.....CLUELESS!

Still think we're a fair way off.

Lack polish, and top end talent.

There's some emerging, but not enough still.
Yeah and so what. What's the point in being a doubter. Must be a miserable way to live.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667078Post magnifisaint »

dragit wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
magnifisaint wrote:Good on you Johnny Member.....CLUELESS!

Still think we're a fair way off.

Lack polish, and top end talent.

There's some emerging, but not enough still.
Probably fair mate, they were missing at least 6 starting 22 players...

Was a great win none the less.
Yeah 6 top 5 draft picks. What a joke.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667081Post Con Gorozidis »



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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667084Post Con Gorozidis »

magnifisaint wrote:
dragit wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
magnifisaint wrote:Good on you Johnny Member.....CLUELESS!

Still think we're a fair way off.

Lack polish, and top end talent.

There's some emerging, but not enough still.
Probably fair mate, they were missing at least 6 starting 22 players...

Was a great win none the less.
Yeah 6 top 5 draft picks. What a joke.
We will get one top 5 draft pick
It will come from the hawks


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667092Post barneyboyz »

dragit wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
magnifisaint wrote:Good on you Johnny Member.....CLUELESS!

Still think we're a fair way off.

Lack polish, and top end talent.

There's some emerging, but not enough still.
Probably fair mate, they were missing at least 6 starting 22 players...

Was a great win none the less.
How many first round picks were out, stuff them. This was enormous for the saints and will just keep building.

All you doubters can save face though and be positive now


St. Kilda Football Club. Going strong, since 1960 :wink:
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667097Post White Winmar »

We were missing a few of our own first rounders. Armitage, McCartin, Hickey (technically pick 13) and Freeman.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667225Post Johnny Member »

dragit wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
magnifisaint wrote:Good on you Johnny Member.....CLUELESS!

Still think we're a fair way off.

Lack polish, and top end talent.

There's some emerging, but not enough still.
Probably fair mate, they were missing at least 6 starting 22 players...

Was a great win none the less.
Agree.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667290Post saintsRrising »

White Winmar wrote:We were missing a few of our own first rounders. Armitage, McCartin, Hickey (technically pick 13) and Freeman.

and Weller who had a very good game against the Hawks.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667291Post saintsRrising »

White Winmar wrote:We were missing a few of our own first rounders. Armitage, McCartin, Hickey (technically pick 13) and Freeman.

and Weller who had a very good game against the Hawks.



However to be a good team you need DEPTH to cover omissions, and we now have much better depth.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667295Post SaintPav »

This thread has now metamorphasised into another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92724


Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667298Post Johnny Member »

SaintPav wrote:This thread has now metamorphasised into another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92724
Two totally different topics.

One is about whether we have enough top end talent on our list to win the flag, and whether anyone on our list will improve beyond what they produce this season.


The other is about a win over an undermanned team in R7.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667369Post saynta »

Johnny Member wrote:
True Believer wrote:laughed this crap off as soon as the OP started writing off a 20 year old KPF who has great hands......no clue
I still dont think we're good enough.
:roll:


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1667389Post Johnny Member »

saynta wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
True Believer wrote:laughed this crap off as soon as the OP started writing off a 20 year old KPF who has great hands......no clue
I still dont think we're good enough.
:roll:
I don't.


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